[Ezkay]

I'm not worried about Ugarte this season; when you put his entire situation into context, he has done okay relative to the rest of the side. He has generally been solid, has shown glimpses of being expansive with his longer-range passing and has done his primary job of recovering the ball pretty well. Factor in that he had no pre-season with us, had a shortened break owing to the Copa America, EtH then took his time introducing him into the side, and then the change of manager altogether, it hasn't exactly created the right conditions for him to prosper.

I will be worried if he doesn't kick on next season with a full break and a pre-season under his belt.

I used to read comments like this about Sancho and Antony and I always laughed - but reading it about Ugarte is even funnier. What’s he going to get better at next season…kicking more shins? He’s weak and just generally lacks ability and talent, it won’t get better from here let me warn you now.

No other half decent team players a midfielder with no ability on the ball. Carragher was analysing Newcastle first goal and was talking about Lindelof positioning but if you keep an eye on Ugarte, he doesn’t scan whatsoever, he’s flat footed with no intention of getting the ball and then passes it straight to them - this is not a Premier League midfielder

 

[JPRouve]

You're correct, he was effective at SCP under Amorim. But you have to look at things holistically when it came to the system and formation that was utilised by Amorim at SCP in a league where you can get away with having a limited midfielder in-possession due to the progressive qualities of the first line at the back who were the dominant force when it came to threading the passes and breaking lines vertically. The league itself outside of the big 3 is not comparable to what should be expected in the EPL and the challenges that await both in-possession and out of possession.

Every coach/manager needs to have his team progressing the ball vertically at a good level. Whether you want to sit back or want to have a strong build up phase with the aim to play in a higher line, you must have players at CB and deeper midfield who have these qualities which enable the team to play higher up the pitch which in-turn opens up the possibility to press from the front and keep the opponent pinned in their own half. In our situation we're way too predictable in the build up phase due to a lack of in-possession quality in midfield. This has been a concern for some time and how INEOS came to the conclusion that a limited player on the ball in Ugarte was the answer is quite simply shocking.

Luis Enrique didn't want Ugarte in his team not because he has a unique system of play but rather he wants his players to carry a vertical passing threat in the build up phase. Ugarte doesn't provide that and became surplus to requirements.

It's really not difficult to identify players who can provide both the defensive acumen out of possession along with the ability to progress the ball forward at a good level. You have to first have that as a criteria and that criteria alone would rule out signing someone like Ugarte.

It's not that he becomes surplus to requirement, the problem is that more often than not unless there is an easy short pass the transition dies with Ugarte. That was the issue for PSG with Ugarte. And it should be said that it's not a technical issue, Ugarte can make the passes that he should, he isn't bad technically, his issue is between his ears, he is also a reactive defender more often than not, he is a good athlete and a willing runner so he statpads a lot but people shouldn't be fooled by numbers. On a very serious note and this comparison isn't a jab at Ugarte, the closest player I have in mind is Toulalan who was a similar type of DM, he accumulated lots of tackles and interceptions, iirc he was often at the top of the league in France and Spain in that department, he was also covering lots of distance alongside... Xabi Alonso. But there was about two galaxies between them because Xabi Alonso did it totally differently, he was always jogging and always baiting opponents into making passes that he anticipated which ended up in either interception and tackles that were born out of hustle. It's a bit of a sidenote but these stats are an example of stats that can be very misleading when looked in isolation.

Ugarte isn't a bad player but he is limited in ways that can easily be debilitating for a top team in 2025 unless you specifically build your team to account for it.

 

[JPRouve]

He got worse, was much better in the beginning

He is the same player, people simply lost their rose tinted glasses.

 

[Escobar]

He is the same player, people simply lost their rose tinted glasses.

I felt in the beginning he was one of the better performers and got some good ratings after the game. More present, better passing as well

 

[JPRouve]

I felt in the beginning he was one of the better performers and got some good ratings after the game. More present, better passing as well

He wasn't, it's the same player. In fact at the beginning he was out of shape.

 

[NZT-One]

It's not that he becomes surplus to requirement, the problem is that more often than not unless there is an easy short pass the transition dies with Ugarte. That was the issue for PSG with Ugarte. And it should be said that it's not a technical issue, Ugarte can make the passes that he should, he isn't bad technically, his issue is between his ears, he is also a reactive defender more often than not, he is a good athlete and a willing runner so he statpads a lot but people shouldn't be fooled by numbers. On a very serious note and this comparison isn't a jab at Ugarte, the closest player I have in mind is Toulalan who was a similar type of DM, he accumulated lots of tackles and interceptions, iirc he was often at the top of the league in France and Spain in that department, he was also covering lots of distance alongside... Xabi Alonso. But there was about two galaxies between them because Xabi Alonso did it totally differently, he was always jogging and always baiting opponents into making passes that he anticipated which ended up in either interception and tackles that were born out of hustle. It's a bit of a sidenote but these stats are an example of stats that can be very misleading when looked in isolation.

Ugarte isn't a bad player but he is limited in ways that can easily be debilitating for a top team in 2025 unless you specifically build your team to account for it.

Interesting point.

I was pretty happy when we brought in Ugarte. My point of view was, that we needed several midfield additions (for a while) and while I, like many others, probably also would have prioritized somebody who is a good progressor of the ball, I was happy to bring in Ugarte because he ticks a few boxes that not many in the team can tick. He has above average workrate I'd say (apart from Bruno, I don't think any other play is above average, actually, a few of them probably closer to below average), he has defensive discipline, adds some steel and his passing is not terrible and (from my point of view, good enough, when employed in the right setup). And I thought even if we reach a point, where we could have two ballers playing this position, it'd still be good to have a defensive powerhouse as an option in the team. Because apart from Casemiros first season, we didn't have that since to years before Matic left (when he left, he wasn't "it" anymore).

Had we brought in a progressor, we'd still have the same issue as before, Casemiro too slow and next to only players who are below average in terms of defensive output. I can see that improving progression might have had some trickle down effects but as Adnan said, being good at progressing the ball is a team job and not something one player will improve on his own.

 

[JE-365]

Not good enough for their style of play but my point was that Amorim has him at Sporting and used the same system he is using now and yet people are now saying he does not fit the system.

You are right about Ugarte fits the system of Amorim’s Sporting. But Amorim built that sporting to suit Portuguese league. PL is not just different level but also has different style compared to Portuguese league. Will this same Ugarte fit the system of Amorim in PL? Amorim should not play the exact same way of how he plays in Portuguese league with how he plays in PL.

Amorim should make a little change and find the profile of player that suits to PL. Pep did the same thing and you can see some differences with his City team and his Barcelona team. At the moment, I feel that Ugarte still couldn’t keep up with the pace and physicality of the PL, so I’m still uncertain if he will fit into PL.

 

[Tosicsleftpeg]

Don't really get the abuse in here. He's an absolute workhorse and wins the ball back non stop, even against Newcastle he cut out loads of good passes. He needs a playmaker with him to take the technical burden away from him, that's not his job

 

[Lash]

It's not that he becomes surplus to requirement, the problem is that more often than not unless there is an easy short pass the transition dies with Ugarte. That was the issue for PSG with Ugarte. And it should be said that it's not a technical issue, Ugarte can make the passes that he should, he isn't bad technically, his issue is between his ears, he is also a reactive defender more often than not, he is a good athlete and a willing runner so he statpads a lot but people shouldn't be fooled by numbers. On a very serious note and this comparison isn't a jab at Ugarte, the closest player I have in mind is Toulalan who was a similar type of DM, he accumulated lots of tackles and interceptions, iirc he was often at the top of the league in France and Spain in that department, he was also covering lots of distance alongside... Xabi Alonso. But there was about two galaxies between them because Xabi Alonso did it totally differently, he was always jogging and always baiting opponents into making passes that he anticipated which ended up in either interception and tackles that were born out of hustle. It's a bit of a sidenote but these stats are an example of stats that can be very misleading when looked in isolation.

Ugarte isn't a bad player but he is limited in ways that can easily be debilitating for a top team in 2025 unless you specifically build your team to account for it.

Toulalan, now that's a name I've not heard in a long time. That sly, old silver fox

I think the way Amorim sets his team up with the back 3, he will cover his shortcomings within the team. The problem is I think the plan was to play him with Mainoo, who also has his own issues and then it's slim pickings after that. The midfield and wing back positions are my personal priority in the summer, because I think we'll be a better unit and players we do have will improve because of it. He may still be an issue next year, but I think we've got a manager who knows him well enough to not make this a completely superfluous signing.

 

[FrankWhite]

I was harsh on him during the game. However, upon reflection, he wasn't as bad as some of his teammates. Still don't like his role in the first goal. He has no pausa and quite often puts his team under pressure.

 

[Tallis]

Sorry haven't read all the posts so this may have been mentioned.

My problem with Ugarte is not the "on the ball:" quality which I don't think is as bad as people are making out to be. He is contributing in terms of cross field switches, through balls and even some attempts on goal. I would even say that part of his game is a little underrated at the moment.

The problem is that he is slow and can't keep up in the recovery phase. Anytime the attacker gets past, he is basically a non factor because he can't keep up.

 

[SubutaiScipio]

I'm not worried about Ugarte this season; when you put his entire situation into context, he has done okay relative to the rest of the side. He has generally been solid, has shown glimpses of being expansive with his longer-range passing and has done his primary job of recovering the ball pretty well. Factor in that he had no pre-season with us, had a shortened break owing to the Copa America, EtH then took his time introducing him into the side, and then the change of manager altogether, it hasn't exactly created the right conditions for him to prosper.

I will be worried if he doesn't kick on next season with a full break and a pre-season under his belt.

Then get ready to be worried because he is not going to kick on in terms of in-possession quality and on the ball ability.

It was obvious even from his YouTube clips before we bought him and was the major reason PSG tossed him after a single season. If we had any sense as a club, we would do the same but i can predict he would still be here in 4-5 years a la Bailly, Lindelof, Rojo and so many misfits that have come before him.

 

[saivet]

Then get ready to be worried because he is not going to kick on in terms of in-possession quality and on the ball ability.

It was obvious even from his YouTube clips before we bought him and was the major reason PSG tossed him after a single season. If we had any sense as a club, we would do the same but i can predict he would still be here in 4-5 years a la Bailly, Lindelof, Rojo and so many misfits that have come before him.

I think the way Enrique and Amorim want their teams to play is very different. Obviously if we sack Amorim and appoint someone like Enrique we have a problem but I think he still can be a good signing, despite his limitations.

 

[SubutaiScipio]

I think the way Enrique and Amorim want their teams to play is very different. Obviously if we sack Amorim and appoint someone like Enrique we have a problem but I think he still can be a good signing, despite his limitations.

There is practically no top team that assembles players the way we have been doing. We assemble too many incomplete players. Strong but can't run at all, can pass but can't run, can run but can't pass, can tackle but has zero positioning.
That is why we are always begging for player B to be signed in order to unlock the potential of player A.

CB with quality on the ball but too small and too short ideally for the position. So needs a very tall player beside him.
CM with quality on the ball but no pace, power, running ability, or stamina. So needs a road runner beside him
AM/RW with quality on the ball but can never, ever outpace his marker. So needs runners around him.

No top team has a midfielder that is so poor on the ball, that some fans are now waiting for another signing with quality on the ball to come and bail him out of his struggles. Modern day midfielders should have a minimum pass mark in every facet of midfield play even if they excel at some and are just okay/average at others. Ugarte is way below average in certain aspects of midfield play. There is only one way this will end, unfortunately.

 

[pocco]

Don't really get the abuse in here. He's an absolute workhorse and wins the ball back non stop, even against Newcastle he cut out loads of good passes. He needs a playmaker with him to take the technical burden away from him, that's not his job

The player who has been playing next to him has been winning the ball back more though. And he’s more progressive in his passing too. Yet he’s the one we apparently need to replace? I’ve said this previously but Ugarte is better higher up the pitch for me, hunting the ball as part of the press. I don’t think he’s all that useful deeper, both on and off the ball.

 

[Berbasbullet]

The player who has been playing next to him has been winning the ball back more though. And he’s more progressive in his passing too. Yet he’s the one we apparently need to replace? I’ve said this previously but Ugarte is better higher up the pitch for me, hunting the ball as part of the press. I don’t think he’s all that useful deeper, both on and off the ball.

Think I agree with this, too limited as the deepest midfielder.

 

[JPRouve]

The player who has been playing next to him has been winning the ball back more though. And he’s more progressive in his passing too. Yet he’s the one we apparently need to replace? I’ve said this previously but Ugarte is better higher up the pitch for me, hunting the ball as part of the press. I don’t think he’s all that useful deeper, both on and off the ball.

I think that you are right. As a defensive box to box, high energy player, a lot of his weaknesses should be hidden. I also had the silly idea of imagining him as a RCB in a back three.

 

[Brightonian]

He's a comfortably more solid DM than we have had for a long time. The issues is caftards immediately take a player's strengths for granted and fixate on their weaknesses. There are a lot of things he's doing routinely that we didn't have anyone to do all those years we kept trying to shoehorn McTominay or Fred into the position

He plays better next to Bruno generally because it means he can focus on the simple stuff and always has the captain there looking for the ball and taking responsibility for building attacks. But his ideal partner would be an Adam Wharton type, creative from deep, long passing range, and with good defensive positioning, allowing Ugarte to do the proactive defensive work - chasing, tackling, pressing, intercepting - a little higher up the pitch. Think Arturo Vidal with Pirlo behind him for the best example of this approach I've personally ever seen.

If we built something like this, we'd be cooking, and making the best use of Ugarte too.

GK
Mazraoui De Ligt Yoro
WB Ugarte Wharton Dorgu
Amad Bruno
CF​

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

I love his efforts and fight, and he is decent on the ball but not great, my issue is not on a single player, but the team as a unit, they easily capitulate which is frustrating, you will see Ugarte still trying but the rest will drop their head, that was very evident vs Newcastle.

 

[saivet]

There is practically no top team that assembles players the way we have been doing. We assemble too many incomplete players. Strong but can't run at all, can pass but can't run, can run but can't pass, can tackle but has zero positioning.
That is why we are always begging for player B to be signed in order to unlock the potential of player A.

CB with quality on the ball but too small and too short ideally for the position. So needs a very tall player beside him.
CM with quality on the ball but no pace, power, running ability, or stamina. So needs a road runner beside him
AM/RW with quality on the ball but can never, ever outpace his marker. So needs runners around him.

No top team has a midfielder that is so poor on the ball, that some fans are now waiting for another signing with quality on the ball to come and bail him out of his struggles. Modern day midfielders should have a minimum pass mark in every facet of midfield play even if they excel at some and are just okay/average at others. Ugarte is way below average in certain aspects of midfield play. There is only one way this will end, unfortunately.

Personally, I don't think Ugarte is so limited that he's not functional in a top side. I don't think he's great on the ball but I would regard him as safe/unadventurous rather than being bad on the ball.

 

[pocco]

Personally, I don't think Ugarte is so limited that he's not functional in a top side. I don't think he's great on the ball but I would regard him as safe/unadventurous rather than being bad on the ball.

I posted a YouTube video that broke down our issues against Newcastle and in general, and their assessment of Ugarte raised some truths about him for me. The way we want to pass out from the back makes him a bit of a liability, as he’s poor receiving the ball facing his own goal. If he’s put under pressure he usually looks shaky and it’s 50/50 whether he’ll turn over the ball or not. The times he doesn’t is usually because he wins the little scrap over the ball, but it’s risky to rely on that and he’s been found out a few times that way.

 

[Superunknown]

I quite like him, personally. He's got that aggressive side to the game that we definitely need, and I'd like to see more of that.

 

[Isotope]

The player who has been playing next to him has been winning the ball back more though. And he’s more progressive in his passing too. Yet he’s the one we apparently need to replace? I’ve said this previously but Ugarte is better higher up the pitch for me, hunting the ball as part of the press. I don’t think he’s all that useful deeper, both on and off the ball.

The issue with that though, you’re asking a worldclass DM who can defend and do the playmaking, ala Rodri, just to accommodate him.

Amorim’s system need the CM to get the ball forward. Well, probably not just Amorim’s but every progressive system.

 

[MadDogg]

He is the same player, people simply lost their rose tinted glasses.

He did have a good month or two when Amorim first came in. And from memory his form had already been improving in ETH's last few games as well.

Dropped off significantly since then though, so will be interesting to see if he can get back to that good form or if that was the exception and what we saw before and since then is the norm.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

He's hardly a bad player. He's just not Roy Keane reborn as some eager Eddies were saying a few months ago.

I still think he's quite good but also has a couple of bits to work on. Needs to be a bit braver with his passing, not a massive issue as his actual passing technique is fine.

He also needs to cut out some of the more pointless fouls, get a bit better at distinguishing when it's worth it to break up play and when to just pass his man on.

 

[VP89]

May not appear related but when we have an attack that can generally do their job, the roles of defensive minded players becomes a lot easier.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

We lost a lot of control when he was subbed off. The 2 Lyon goals felt like flukes but when he came off they looked much better.

 

[Bobski]

Did really well first half but he does seem to burn himself out in games with his high energy style

 

[acnumber9]

His best performance in a while but his stamina is worrying.

 

[Superunknown]

I really like him. It feels like we need another version of him as a rotational option for when he runs out of gas.

 

[sullydnl]

Was very good.

 

[Alemar]

Well taken goal and was generally very good today, strong performance

 

[Godfather]

Good bounce back after some poor games..very good today

 

[Olecurls99]

Immense today. Our best player until he went off. He was everywhere

 

[tomaldinho1]

His best performance in a while but his stamina is worrying.

ETH warned everyone. He'd had no pre season from the sounds of it but people took it as some excuse without really thinking it through. He was everywhere last night but flagged hard second half, he's so good at what he does.

 

[SoCross]

If we want our CBs to be stepping up and influencing play, isn't his profile of player desirable than a 'progresser' ? Someone to put out fires in case one of the CBs loses the ball. Dribblers in the 10 positions, Ugarte, a box-to-box profile... sounds alright.

Just thinking out aloud.

 

[UpWithRivers]

Was very good.

Casemiro’s game by numbers vs. Lyon:
100% successful take-ons
87% pass accuracy
8 passes into the final third
8 clearances
6 tackles
4 chances created
2 interceptions
2 assists
1 penalty won

What a real DM looks like

 

[BorisManUtd]

Thought it was too defensive starting both him and Casemiro but he scored and we looked in control in first half so that proved to be a good decision from Amorim.

 

[Olecurls99]

If we want our CBs to be stepping up and influencing play, isn't his profile of player desirable than a 'progresser' ? Someone to put out fires in case one of the CBs loses the ball. Dribblers in the 10 positions, Ugarte, a box-to-box profile... sounds alright.

Just thinking out aloud.

Exactly. Yoro and Mazraoui have shown great progression abilities so the whole quarterback midfielder isn't necessary.

 

[Olecurls99]

Casemiro’s game by numbers vs. Lyon:
100% successful take-ons
87% pass accuracy
8 passes into the final third
8 clearances
6 tackles
4 chances created
2 interceptions
2 assists
1 penalty won

What a real DM looks like

Maybe they both played well