Manchester United's Chief Scout and Head of Global Scouting have left the club

charlenefan said:
Seem to recall us hiring Marcel Bout was considered a bit of a coup at the time, cant say I'm surprised that it hasn't turned out that way
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He came in with Van Gaal as part of the coaching staff then became opposition scout then somehow bizarrely lingered on afterwards and promoted to head of global scouting. Woodward probably had the wool pulled over his eyes.
 
Here's why they've been sacked:
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We need an rvn said:
This decision would have been made ages ago and not made on a whim because of what happened yesterday. They'd have the structure for the new system in place and who they want to lead it (Rag) well before this.

And I think it's a good move to announce it the day after the expected loss to show the fans things are changing, so I wouldn't call it coincidence but good management for a change
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I don't think timing the announcement for today is good management, I think it's yet another cynical PR move but I admire the positivity!
 
Champ said:
He has been the chief scout/analyst for a little while longer, despite what you may have found online.

He was instrumental in Vidic, I am sure you'll find an amusing anecdote from Chris Coleman if you searched hard enough online regarding his attempt at poaching him for Fulham back in 2005 (he references United 'Chief Scout' at the time, in which he means Jim Lawlor).
He was also instrumental in many of the signings from South America also (hence his knowledge on Falcao, Lozano, the Da Silva twins, Chicarito etc).
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Martin Ferguson was Chief Scout in 2005. He retired in 2013 and then Lawlor was promoted.

EDIT - Also after some quick google searches, it seems Les Kershaw is given credit for "discovering" the Da Silva twins.
 
Dante said:
She's entertaining and all. But we shouldn't be going down the moneyball route. It doesn't work in a continuous, midfield focussed game like football.

Maybe it's okay in NFL (where each play is separated from the next) or baseball (where each pitch is its own thing) or even basketball (where there are a hundred attacks each match with scoring going back and forth).

Football, by comparison, is a game of attrition where games are decided on one or two moments every 90 minutes. You can't reliably compare one team to another, or one league to another. If United start to rely on analytics, there's a huge risk of us buying/missing out on players based on numbers that wouldn't be repeated in the our own team.
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Football is a game of statistics and luck.

You can use the statistics to reduce the amount of luck that goes against you,

Likewise you can use statistics correctly to figure out the right transfer targets.

Analysts are prevalent in nearly every professional club for everything, be that nutrition, match stats and most definitely transfer targets, it is indeed the way forward and has been proven to work if implemented correctly, heck Southampton used statistics and analytics to pick their last five managers (and are one of the biggest users of analysts).
 
STaphouse said:
Martin Ferguson was Chief Scout in 2005. He retired in 2013 and then Lawlor was promoted.
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He was chief European scout officially.

Lawlor was also referred to as the Chief scout.
 
crossy1686 said:
Here's why they've been sacked:
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Stats like that are quite damning within the context of our on-the-field output.

I can't comment on the scouts involvement in the decision making that ultimately led to these numbers - who hasn't had their boss ignore their good suggestions and do something utterly stupid only for it to reflect on you - but change all around the club is probably the best thing. A full reset.
 
Champ said:
He was chief European scout officially.

Lawlor was also referred to as the Chief scout.
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Really?

"Lawlor joined United in 2005 under Sir Alex Ferguson, working towards a chief scout promotion in 2014"

So you're saying Lawlor was employed, straight away, as a Chief Scout? Despite every other report I can find suggesting otherwise?
 
We have issues not just in terms of scouting, but also in terms of negotiations in signing new players. Our negotiations seem to drag on for ages, preventing us from higher volumes of turnover (both in sales and purchases). I think the club should also look carefully at Judge's role.
 
Adnan said:
Bout was a match analyst/assistant under both LVG and Jupp Heynckes, and from what I've read, Jupp Heynckes didn't want him to leave when LVG called, whilst he (LVG) was in his second stint as the head coach of the Dutch NT.


And as @JPRouve mentioned earlier, i've provided evidence from various different journalists about the managers post Fergie signing players who the club's own recruitment staff had vetoed as not being good enough.. And the most high profile of the lot was Harry Maguire due to the ridiculous price tag. And according to Daniel Taylor, Maguire wasn't deemed any better than the CBs already at the club in a piece from 2018. That then caused Mourinho to go into self sabotage mode and he was telling the press that he was a mere head coach now and not a manager. But Woodward still went ahead and signed Maguire for Ole and Phelan. And we have to remember that it was under Phelan that Maguire became a mainstay at EPL level and captain. And that was due to Phelan being the first team manager at Hull City.

And tbh with you I don't see this as a big deal because like I've said in the past, it's all about aligning recruitment towards the head coach's methods. But unfortunately for us we've had managers who we've allowed far too much control to, where they've signed players on the back of their personal recruitment staff. And when you do that in the present day, you have failed to align recruitment, and short term gains won't make up for long-term pains. So i'm fully expecting more than capable replacements to come in, who in conjunction with a DoF/head coach model will see us recruit to a guiding principle.

And as far as development goes in the game, I've never seen development on the football side as good as what the French have done at developing talent at academy level, and the German development when it comes to structuring clubs from the recruitment to data analytics etc. And what we have in common with them is that we've adopted their methods in England, where according to Dan Ashworth and numerous others, we improved our youth development by copying the French and the Clairefontaine approach, which saw us win the u17/u20 world cups. And according to the same people, we also adopt the German DoF model and combine it with the French approach to developing talent.

Sorry for digressing slightly, but I thought i'd share my thoughts on development, which is ultimately what the goal is and what we hope will lead to a challenge on all-fronts in the future.
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Thanks mate, very insightful!
 
crossy1686 said:
Here's why they've been sacked:
77qdoodjjnu81.jpg
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Fair play to Liverpool Bayern and Real.

Look at the state on this, it’s also further proof that resources are not the issue with Glazers but their lack of control and structure is incredibly worrying.
 
sullydnl said:
I think that's overly simplistic in the other direction.

Looking at Liverpool for example, a lot of the key figures in their scouting renaissance were the same people derided as part of the Brendan Rodgers transfer comittee era. If they had had a wholesale clearout following Rodgers' collapse then they wouldn't be where they are now.

What actually needs to happen is for us to keep and lose the right people. And that's a lot trickier than broader changes. Certainly not something we can do from the outside.
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Yeah probably. To be fair we don't really know the inner workings. Mine was just a throwaway comment. However, someone has to be held accountable from the scouting department when you're this bad at recruitment.

Also Rodgers did a good job at Liverpool. He nearly won them the title. While it ended badly people forget how good their footy was for awhile. Players like Sterling, Suarez and co improved there. Everyone at United regresses. Different situation I'd argue.

But
crossy1686 said:
Here's why they've been sacked:
77qdoodjjnu81.jpg
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This makes for abysmal reading.
 
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L1nk said:
How have Real Madrid only got 179mill net yet seem to be in so much financial trouble
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Their issue is with wage bill regulation, not transfer fee. Having those best players would raise the wage ceiling very high. Then they made big mistake with Bale renewal. Then Hazard flop created the mess couple seasons back. Now Bale contract finally runs out, they have more breathing space.
 
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JJ12 said:
Fair play to Liverpool Bayern and Real.

Look at the state on this, it’s also further proof that resources are not the issue with Glazers but their lack of control and structure is incredibly worrying.
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Resources are far from the main problem. Utilization thereof and management of the club is.
 
If he's the one responsible for us choosing Lindelof over van Dijk. Seeing value in a 80M Maguire transfer, recommending VDB. This would be good news.
 
JJ12 said:
Fair play to Liverpool Bayern and Real.

Look at the state on this, it’s also further proof that resources are not the issue with Glazers but their lack of control and structure is incredibly worrying.
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More that without the Glazers we would've had a footballing direction and an extra 1.5bn to spend since 2005.
 
JB7 said:
Hardly a loss given that we seem to do the majority of our scouting on FIFA 22.
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Not joking but I was discussing this with a mater earlier and following FIFA/Football Manager would have served us so much better than the scouts have :lol:. A particularly good FM/FIFA player would have scouted us some FAR better players from their databases alone.

So.....good luck to these lads.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Resources are far from the main problem. Utilization thereof and management of the club is.
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Definitely - with the right structure and that financial input we should obviously be the top team in Europe, at least one of them.
 
JPRouve said:
In the last 5 years, they spent 588m€ and earned 585m€.
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ti vu said:
Net spend is in the question, so look at the departure column and see how they get quite some good fee back in sale, loan to balance the book.
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Yeah I didn't read net spend properly. Deleted my post but you two were too quick!

That net spend figure for us is fecking scandalous.
 
Sounds like a bit of a reckoning going on at the club. Not surprising with the situation we currently face.
 
Trex said:
Villa ranking is incredible??
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Not anything credible. As you can see, PL teams generally have big net spend. TV money eases the need for player sale as one of the main tool to balance the book. For example, Brighton vs Leipzig (a CL regulars). Aston Villa started to spend big to gain, promotion, reestablishing themselves in PL, and now looking to push up the table. They were in no good situation for players sale (didn't have valuable players for sale), but kept having to spend.

Beside us and Arsenal, Everton is another prime suspect of mismanagement. They're well secured in the league, midtable in the top half. Still wasting resources, and ending up worse. Currently fighting off relegation this season.
 
UnitedSofa said:
Hold on hold on hold on......you're blaming Fletcher for this mess? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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What kind of imaginary debate you are doing? I am not blaming Fletcher for this mess, how did you process that in your mind to come up with that kind of conclusion? What I am saying is, our competitors has all extremely smart and experienced people taking charge of whatever the hell Fletcher is doing. And we have Fletcher who has no experience whatsoever about it. That's why we are in this position.

God I can't believe I had to explain this.
 
Don't we have thousands of scouts all over the world? Sack them all.
 
gica_7 said:
What kind of imaginary debate you are doing? I am not blaming Fletcher for this mess, how did you process that in your mind to come up with that kind of conclusion? What I am saying is, our competitors has all extremely smart and experienced people taking charge of whatever the hell Fletcher is doing. And we have Fletcher who has no experience whatsoever about it. That's why we are in this position.

God I can't believe I had to explain this.
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Fletcher is NOT the DOF. Nor has he ever claimed to be. From your post you clearly blamed Fletcher for the mess.

John Murtough is the man in control of ALL footballing matters.

Fletcher is there to help determine if those we are signing are the right sort of players that are needed for the club. As far as I am aware no other club does this. Whether or not that's a positive or a negative on the club is another matter entirely. But for heavens sake, stop criticising Fletcher for a job he is clearly qualified to do.

Oh and he has ALL the experience needed to do the job because he has played for the club and has been a loyal servant for many many MANY years. He knows what it takes for a young player to make the step up, he knows the mentality required to play for Man Utd. Not some hipster signing that posters such as yourself may pine for.
 
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