Eh? Reports have always been that he was interim first and foremost, with the consultant bit being tacked on and poorly defined, which lead a lot to believe that it was a way to get Rangnick to drop a 3 year deal for a 7 month one. Regardless, he wasn't hired as an adviser and made manager on a whim, he was hired as a manager.
Manchester United name John Murtough as Football Director and Darren Fletcher as Technical Director
- Thread starter Tom Van Persie
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I think its mostly that ETH is a manager and Rangnick isn't. It was a stupid decision to appoint a technical director to the position of manager for one of the biggest clubs in the world. Don't get me wrong, Rangnick was an absolute failure but I don't think the majority of the blame lies with him at all. Everything I've heard him say about the team and players was correct but he shouldn't even have been put into that role by Murtough. Still think Ralf in charge of recruitment and EtH managing the team would have been amazing combo but it was obviously untenable after the disastrous managerial stint.
I find it hilarious that people praise EtH for binning off Rangnick (supposedly, I still think that's bullshit and it was a club decision) but barely mention he binned off all the scouts' recommendations and just got his boys and other players associated with Ajax, new and old.
Obviously, this doesn't include Casemiro but you don't need to be Superscout to know he's world class.
Even in the winter, it was Weghorst and Sabitzer, pretty much two players EtH would know about. He also wanted Gakpo who again he knew from the Eredivisie, same as Malacia.
Why would he know about Weghorst and Sabitzer more than Man Utd considering their past clubs.
Which players were scout recommendations and which recommendation did he bin off?
Exactly, Sabitzer is an Austrian played for Leipzig and Bayern, somehow EtH will know everything about this player.
Also any player who is Dutch will be known to EtH completely.
Agreed, you might say that since Ten Hag worked for many years in Eredivisie (as an assistant & as a manager of 4 clubs in Netherlands) he might have some sort of knowledge of the players there or he can get a quick assessment on them due to his connections to others within the football industry in the Netherlands, but he certainly wouldn't have total knowledge on all players in Eredivisie except maybe for the ones who he worked with, as for Sabitzer, definitely he wouldn't have as much knowledge as our scouts in Austria or Germany.
and as you alluded to in an earlier post of yours, it really doesn't matter who identified who first, it is obviously a team effort (Ten Hag, Mortough & the recruitment team), perhaps Martinez & Antony could be ones Ten Hag directly asked to be signed, but Eriksen & Casemiro are known entities so could've been suggested by anyone really, and I guess Malacia was recommended by Ten Hag and the club thought it was a worthwhile signing as a cover for Shaw for a low cost.
Yeah, only thing that really matters is whether the recruitment team and Manager are happy with the player.
I find it weird how people think ETH found all these players. Every manager and every scout in Europe will know all about all of them, they're not exactly plucked from the amateur leagues.
Recruitment is a team effort where the scouts present a number of players who fit a criteria and between them they figure out who to go for. ETH probably feels more comfortable with Eredivisie players as he has seen them more regularly, that's all, and they do usually translate well to the PL.
Find it hilarious that anyone would complain about EtH wanting players he knew would slot into his system straight away.
Especially considering it's worked a treat up til now and brought us a trophy.
Would be strange for a new manager to want to go with all of the scouts recommendations in the first window, we've seen what happened to Chelsea under that sort of plan.
It's quite common for a new manager to bring in players they have worked with previously, doesn't just happen at United.
A technical director is fine for everything but the first team. I always think as long as you get a manager in who is top tier and wants to play progressive football, then 75 percent of a vote on a new player should go to him other wise surely you’re working against the manager.
Would any technical director looked at Martinez? Every pundit was essentially saying casemiro was a mistake. The tail wagged the dog here and as long as you get a coach in who cares about the club then it’s probably fine.
Would any technical director looked at Martinez? Every pundit was essentially saying casemiro was a mistake. The tail wagged the dog here and as long as you get a coach in who cares about the club then it’s probably fine.
It’s been working a treat for Liverpool since they alienated the analytics nerds for the management team’s eye test favourites. I think you’re absolutely wrong in how a club should do recruitment.
Managers have huge blind spots and my biggest fear about ten Hag is that he’ll want too much control over transfers. So far we’ve been really lucky but I still think recruitment should be done by the recruitment team and provide the manager with a short list of options.
Including the ballon d'or winner Nunez, spanish wonderkid Thiago, Lord Karius, Arthur Mellowing and Cody Gakpoo I assume?
I belive Ralf was ignored because Ten Hag didnt want to work with him. And Ralf made a right mess of things as they were. If Ralf gets credit for saying the squad had issues, you might as well have hired any fan from the stand to say the same thing.
I think data analytics is hugely overrated for identifying talent.
It might be useful for spotting talent that's off the radar like Kante when he was in France.
But the best method is just to watch a player.
I'm not an expert, but I could've told United not to sign Maguire or AWB. Don't need data for that.
There's only a few 1000 elite players so very few hidden gems.
The difference is choosing between let's a shortlist of 10 or 20 center backs.
ETH was certain Lisandro would be a success and I trust his judgement.
Casemiro was a no brainer although there was a chance he was past it or lost his hunger.
Malacia was a bargain so no real risk.
I feel like you're throwing unrelated things together just to seem to have a larger point. Ten Hag had zero links with Ajax while Eriksen was there, and Malacia and Weghorst have zero links with Ajax. It's also been reported that Antony had been scouted by United before Ten Hag signed, and that Casemiro and Sabitzer had also been on United's radar for a long time.
So I don't see how you can say he 'binned off all the scouts' recommendations' or suggest that his Ajax connection was particularly decisive across the board. I'm obviously not disputing that Ten Hag had a big influence on signings, but that makes sense as he's the manager and United's scouting structure was in development. It's saying that he didn't care for United's scouts and had such an Ajax focus that seems exaggerated to me.
Also, you don't know what happens behind the scenes. It's well possibly that the higher-ups wanted the scouting department to comment on Ten Hag's preference before signings were made. It's possible that played a role in not getting Gakpo, for example. That's assumption on my end of course, there's no actual information on that (that I've seen); but so is most of your post above.
That’s why I said 75%.
It’s worked a treat for Liverpool? they have only been successful since Klopp came, he obviously has a huge say on transfers.
I’m sure in large it works this way, a strong coach won’t settle for less. Martinez, Casemiro, Antony are all Ten Hag signings, it’s obvious.
You'd be surprised, it was widely reported he wanted Brandt, Pulisic or Draxler instead of Salah and Mario Goetze ahead of Mane; and it was only the work of the scouting and recruitment teams that convinced him otherwise. I'm sure they even had an offer accepted for Draxler but he turned them down. I'm sure I read he wanted Chilwell ahead of Robertson as well but Leicester wouldn't sell at the time.
This is also hilarious. So the foolish crowing that EtH 'sacked' Rangnick (completely unsubstantiated btw) is perfectly fine but making obvious connections between him buying and wanting players he's coached and watched against his own team for years (that includes Weghorst but most here are too lazy to Google) is apparently a leap too far.
This all just highlights that some of you just want to believe what you want to believe and nothing would convince you otherwise. Proper Murtough worshipping based on zero observed impact.
Thats the main case, how many top tier managers are? In an optimal organization all the calls are made by the technical director and approved by the manager. Teams like Madrid or Bayern work this way, and its a big part of why they're so succesfull.
When you buy players based mostly on the managers opinion you end up like us, with a disjointed squad.,As the only way it works if its the manager is top tier and the team is clicking, but if it doesnt then you're in a constant "rebuild" as the old players don't fit the new manager and he wants other players, etc. Pretty much like LVG-Mourinho-Ole transition.
I'm glad its working well under ten Hag, but for the long term we must change this.
Do you ever not moan about everything?
Good post.
Just to add to your post, Christian Eriksen was brought to Ajax by Manchester United's current head of European scouting, Henny de Regt. Henny de Regt has been at United since 2016, but before joining United, he was at Ajax for 18 years in various roles, including being the head of youth recruitment, and he's credited with signing and developing young players like de Ligt, Eriksen, Van der Vaart, Vertonghen etc. Tweet below from February, 2016.
And even I knew about Marcel Sabitzer from his time at RB Leipzig. But that doesn't mean I will have known about Sabitzer, like say a scout who has been covering Austria and followed his career trajectory. And United's scout in Austria is Armand Benekker, who funnily enough is also a Dutch national but spent a large part of his playing career in Austria, and he's currently United's lead scout in Austria.
And before Ten Hag even took up his role at the club. John Murtough had already removed both heads of scouting at first team level and replaced them via Simon Wells and a South American national by the name of Jose Mayorga. A friend of mine (City fan) said to me upon hearing about Jose Mayorga, that he thought our recruitment was going to reflect the changes we made at the top of the recruitment pyramid. I laughed it off at the time, but I do believe Mayorga's influence and know how in South America made the decision to sign Antony, Martinez and Casemiro alot easier. Especially Casemiro. And ultimately the credit must go to John Murtough who thus far is doing a good job and there's much more to come from the team he's put together. Which on paper is said to be very impressive according to the guys at the training ground guru.
And just to finish off, Rangnick was a head coach/manager for 90% off his career and not a Sporting director. He only became a Sporting director after he joined clubs who were financially doped up by billionaires, Dietmar Hopp (Hoffenheim) and the late Dietrich Mateschitz (RedBull clubs). You shouldn't really fail at clubs who are financially doped up like Hoffenheim and the RedBull clubs.
And Liverpool contrary to what some have been saying, have still got their recruitment structure intact. Edwards did leave after overseeing the Nunes signing, and the current Sporting director, and data science team will also be broken up come the end of the next summer transfer window. But the recruitment structure is intact and the two big players within the recruitment department (Dave Fallows & Barry Hunter) are still leading the recruitment department.
I think some of Liverpool's data science team will end up at United. We still haven't got the personnel for Jordan's data science team, and I've got a feeling we're waiting for Liverpool's data team to see out the next transfer window before some of those people join us.
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There is a tendency nowadays to make everything black & white or boil everything into binary decisions. Hero or Zero when the reality of life is that it's more nuanced.
As ETH says, it takes a squad -- both below him and above him. It cant be everything good is attributed to ETH but not to the people above him too.
The foot bone's connected to the leg bone.
The leg bone's connected to the knee bone.
The knee bone's connected to the thigh bone.
As ETH says, it takes a squad -- both below him and above him. It cant be everything good is attributed to ETH but not to the people above him too.
The foot bone's connected to the leg bone.
The leg bone's connected to the knee bone.
The knee bone's connected to the thigh bone.
Really hope he'll bring us hidden gems from South America
I don't have any doubt about that, and imo we'd have Moises Caicedo, Enzo Fernandez and the very young Kendry Paez signed up already if we had better owners. I'm pretty sure all three of the above players were Jose Mayorga targets.
The worry for me is the current ownership and how long they'll stifle us in the summer window. I'm hoping they'll be gone by then, but there's a chance they'll still be around like a bad smell come the summer window.
And now you're throwing posters together. Show me where I make all these assumptions, or worship Murtough, or whatever. Cause as far as I can recall, my point of view has pretty consistently been that we know very little about what actually happens behind closed doors in relation to scouting, identifying players, and arranging transfers, and that you just can't say anything for certain going by transfer rumours - which was ultimately also the point of my previous response to you.
Of course, this is a forum, not investigative journalism; but I think it's generally better to be careful with these assumptions about processes that are not at all happening in the open, and especially with any larger conclusions based on those assumptions.
Another good post by @Adnan just above btw.
Yea thats why they are just that, pundits. In fact many of us thought signing them going to be a stop gap solution. Thats why many of us aren’t managers.
You're right, a signing doesn't have to be either of ETH's or the Scouts. It's plausible that the players we signed are listed by our scouts and selected by ETH. It's not a stretch to believe that Antony was one of the players we were scouting, and when presented to ETH with 4 other options for he right wing position, he went for Antony. Similar with other signings, it could continue to look like ETH is signing his ex players or players he has prior knowledge about, but that could easily be him just selecting those players from the list our scouts share with him.
Take no notice, he hates everyone in our hierarchy.
When this go wrong, its the hierarchy. When things go right, it's a total fluke. I'm not sure where this childish, baseless anger comes from. There were people on here shouting nepotism when the brother of a youth team player did some legal work. Madness.
Not sure that’s strictly true, there were certainly heated debates on here about why we could miss out on Conte and indeed Poch
Thank feck we waited for the right man
We needed an interim manager. I have a sneaking suspicion that we had already decided that ETH would be the man long term and were prepared to wait on him.
My central point about all this is that I judge based on impact. I have not seen any revolutionary actions by Murtough to suggest he's anything but another failed appointment, especially given the type of players we were looking at in the summer before splashing the cash on Antony and Casemiro.
Additionally, posters who like to go on about me making assumptions literally do the exact same thing about the Rangnick situation and yet that's perfectly fine. All I'm doing is highlighting their hypocrisy and they start writing novellas how much I 'hate' this guy or that guy at the club. I was getting the exact same comments when I wanted OGS out in 2020 and 2021 but no one would go back and quote me on those.
Raising this issue about the youth development strategy if there's anything news worthy that's available ? Strong links of what seems like a brief that the club are targeting Kane which I personally have no issue with but when contrasting the average age of key players in other positions what is the logic behind this.
By summer 2023 / 2024 season that's Varane, Fernandez, Casemiro, Eriksen and potentially Kane on the approaching 30 or already 30+. For a new manager to come in and under 24 months have this high an age range in core positions is a very questionable outlook. Why is the club not linked with younger players. Off the top of my head can only think of Lavia in recent weeks which would be a good signing. But this is enough of a concern imo Murtough supposedly reset the scouting department and there should be some fruit from it that the club can target in the upcoming window.
By summer 2023 / 2024 season that's Varane, Fernandez, Casemiro, Eriksen and potentially Kane on the approaching 30 or already 30+. For a new manager to come in and under 24 months have this high an age range in core positions is a very questionable outlook. Why is the club not linked with younger players. Off the top of my head can only think of Lavia in recent weeks which would be a good signing. But this is enough of a concern imo Murtough supposedly reset the scouting department and there should be some fruit from it that the club can target in the upcoming window.
I think the Kane rumours are smokescreen or just paper talk
Murtough has set up a tent outside the Camp Nou to be first in line for the Black Friday giveaway that’s inevitably coming.
Who the hell is this and does he even have football knowledge ?
His negotiating skills are more important for that role.
Who is he?
His name is Matt Hargreaves and he’s an Adidas executive
I do wonder how CAF works in the real world. Transferable skills are literally non existent.
