Manchester United name John Murtough as Football Director and Darren Fletcher as Technical Director
- Thread starter Tom Van Persie
- Start date
You have a point but at this point it’s glass half empty because all the signings have actually improved us and look good for the long term. Antony being the worst value for money and he looks to be slowly improving. Sabitzer Malacia and Wout look like good value I’m happy to have a more professional, passionate and vocal team and the only way you can build that is by signing the right characters. Once the mentality is fixed and we start challenging you can go back to taking punts on an emerging player or more skilful or temperamental players who will follow strong leadership.
We kept signing a mix of Instagram players, players who were past it and the usual punts over the last few years and it really hurt us. We looked to have a soft group lead by big time Charlie’s who were quick to throw in the towel and pass the blame off. Hard work and a strong mentality is the bedrock of any successful organisation. Actually addressing weaknesses in the team instead of making perplexing sideways moves in the market and burning through the budget at the same time. Now things are looking up I’m prepared to give all concerned the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.
It’s also on record that United were talking to Casemiro since the Christmas before, and he’d made up his mind that he wanted a new challenge. So I don’t think that it was Casemiro or DeJong despite how media run their narrative. I think the plan was to sign 2 CMs all along and those first 2 choices were Casemiro and DeJong
Possibly but I don't recall any T1 sources. I think that all went out the window once we splashed the cash on Antony anyway.
We couldn't afford a second CM in the end. State of our ownership
We held off splashing cash on Anthony till the last minute though, I think we were holding just in case for FDJPossibly but I don't recall any T1 sources. I think that all went out the window once we splashed the cash on Antony.
We couldn't afford a second CM in the end. State of our ownership
My post is solely related on the topic. Regarding my mood I hasn't been happier with Manchester United since our 3rd CL win. Our manager is the closest we had to prime SAF, he brought some fantastic players in and we will soon get rid of the Glazers and their cronies. I know that it's too early to celebrate but I feel the same vibes of pre treble united. At the time it was evident that we were heading to the right direction and all we need is a that extra lucky push. At the time it was Yorke and Stam, now its a good owner
You keep spouting the nonsense about Murtough being Woodward's fixer. He was working exclusively away from the first team. That makes absolutely no sense if he's then gonna be involved in advising Woodward regularly on first team decisions.
If he really was as close to Woodward as you're alleging then surely he'd actually have been given a fancy higher up position like Judge and Arnold had? So he could be spending his time as his go to advice guy rather than have Murtough wasting his time sorting out youth team transfers and setting up the women's teams.
But you know best.
Actually murtough was given by Woodward a role which made him Judge's boss. Check the hierarchy when he was made Dof
Woodward gave Murtough the role of the DoF in 2021 and threw him into a football structure at first team level that Woodward himself had created at the top of the chain.
Solskjaer, Bout, Lawlor, Phelan and Judge were inherited by Murtough. All of those guys have now been removed and replaced by people of Murtough's choosing. Hence I've been saying that Murtough only became the de facto DoF in 2022, when he had the authority to make big decisions to the football structure and make hiring and firing calls.
I'm still learning about Murtough and the potential development of the football side of the club. But for any DoF, one must judge him via the team he puts in place rather than the team the DoF is put into. And this is what alot of you guys don't understand and you've been too focused on one individual and are oblivious to the support structure that should accompany a DoF. No DoF can operate without a capable support structure.
And when you go into a summer transfer window without a capable support structure, then it's wise to lean on ten Hag because the budget at the time was reported to be £120m. And that budget only changed when pressure was applied to Joel Glazer who released more funds.
I could be wrong but I'm expecting the recruitment team led by Mayorga and Wells to be influential come the summer window. Jose Mayorga flew over from Argentina to take up permanent residency at Carrington in August according to reports. And along with the data science team lead by Dominic Jordan, I'm expecting them to be influential. But that doesn't mean ten Hag shouldn't be allowed to sign a player of his choosing if everyone is in agreement.
Solskjaer, Bout, Lawlor, Phelan and Judge were inherited by Murtough. All of those guys have now been removed and replaced by people of Murtough's choosing. Hence I've been saying that Murtough only became the de facto DoF in 2022, when he had the authority to make big decisions to the football structure and make hiring and firing calls.
I'm still learning about Murtough and the potential development of the football side of the club. But for any DoF, one must judge him via the team he puts in place rather than the team the DoF is put into. And this is what alot of you guys don't understand and you've been too focused on one individual and are oblivious to the support structure that should accompany a DoF. No DoF can operate without a capable support structure.
And when you go into a summer transfer window without a capable support structure, then it's wise to lean on ten Hag because the budget at the time was reported to be £120m. And that budget only changed when pressure was applied to Joel Glazer who released more funds.
I could be wrong but I'm expecting the recruitment team led by Mayorga and Wells to be influential come the summer window. Jose Mayorga flew over from Argentina to take up permanent residency at Carrington in August according to reports. And along with the data science team lead by Dominic Jordan, I'm expecting them to be influential. But that doesn't mean ten Hag shouldn't be allowed to sign a player of his choosing if everyone is in agreement.
Yeah after years of Murtough doing his job with issues that had nothing to do with the first team. He apparently did a good job at it so got a promotion and to a position he had relevant experience in.
That doesn't show however that he was advising him on football issues outside of the youth teams and women's team.
Murtough would have been extremely busy to be able to be in touch with every aspect of the club to advise Woodward on who to buy for the first team when he had such monumental tasks to focus on such as setting up an entire professional football club.
I think the two of them might have been looking forward to a quiet week after the closure of the transfer window, somehow I don't think they are going to get it. Yet another big decision incoming.
Murtough was one (if not the only) person from Moyes team who got retained. He survived (actually thrived) despite the bad results and despite us bringing numerous managers in, all with a different mentality, their own ego and their own people. Not only that but he was assigned huge projects as well like setting the women team and restructuring the youth academy. In the end he was promoted by Woodward as the DOF putting him at the head of the pyramid and ahead of Judge who was Woodward's man. That move lead to Judge resigning soon afterwards. The man was also called Woodward's fixer not by devilish of redcafe but by reputable journalist Laurie Whitwell of the Athletic.
We can presume that he was very very close to Woodward's ear long before he became DOF.
Murtough was without doubt called the fixer. But that was at the youth development level where he was brought into modernise the academy after David Gill had left the club in a poor state at youth level and Man City were taking advantage by not only taking our youngsters but also had a far bigger scouting network at the level which was put in place by Brian Marwood. The youth development side needed fixing.
In England we didn't have DoFs but rather the manager setting the directive throughout the club. But around the year 2000, things were starting to evolve at other clubs due to the structural side on the football club expanding throughout the clubs in question. And people like Murtough, Ashworth and McDermott from Spurs started to emerge in academy director roles, which is basically a role that shares the same concepts as the role of a DoF/head of development at first team level.
So when Woodward asked Moyes for a recommendation on how to go about developing and modernising a dated structure at youth level, he recommended John Murtough who had vast experience at modernising and developing structures at the development level which included setting up a data analytics and scouting network.
I'm still learning about how things are developing but thus far I see things developing well and it'll be interesting to see how things develop in the summer window now that the support structure seems to be in place.
In England we didn't have DoFs but rather the manager setting the directive throughout the club. But around the year 2000, things were starting to evolve at other clubs due to the structural side on the football club expanding throughout the clubs in question. And people like Murtough, Ashworth and McDermott from Spurs started to emerge in academy director roles, which is basically a role that shares the same concepts as the role of a DoF/head of development at first team level.
So when Woodward asked Moyes for a recommendation on how to go about developing and modernising a dated structure at youth level, he recommended John Murtough who had vast experience at modernising and developing structures at the development level which included setting up a data analytics and scouting network.
I'm still learning about how things are developing but thus far I see things developing well and it'll be interesting to see how things develop in the summer window now that the support structure seems to be in place.
Based on the article by Laurie Whitwell that you mentioned, Murtaugh main role was helping Woodward to manage the club, this is what Whitwell wrote on that :
It was obvious that Woodward left the first team recruitment to the head coaches he hired, like LvG, Mou & Ole, but the club was not only about the first team recruitment, there was a youth academy, reserve teams and also a plan to establish a Women's team and many other things, those were the areas that Murtough advised Woodward on, and Laurie mentions it in his article how Murtough then became the "fixer" as you mentioned earlier.
Woodward knew jack shit on how to manage a football club, Murtough helped with that, youth academy, women's team and other areas, but he was certainly not involved in first team recruitment related activities (hiring/firing head coaches & players recruitment) until he was appointed as DoF.
To go one step further he isn’t listed as Woodwards “fixer” but rather Manchester United’s “fixer”
I.e: Bringing Manchester United back to where they belong…..aka “fixing” a broken club.
Exactly, and if people want to know more about Murtough, they should read Whitwell's article, it is really a deep dive into the man 's history, one part that I found interesting is the below: -
On the bolded bit, it portrays how Murtough knows the club inside out, and why Woodward, someone who I think has questionable judgment when making football decisions, still opted to appoint Murtough instead of someone from outside.
Btw, I still think the jury is still out on Murtough, but at least for now and since his appointment, he made some really good moves, and even if he departs now, his successor will inherit something far far better than the hot mess this club was until recently.
The initial point was that Murtough did have Woodward's ear long before he was made DOF which include the feck ups as well. I find it very hard to believe that he didn't have a toe on first team transfers as well especially since the same patterns of before were repeated again (relying solely on the manager's opinion, overspending in terms of fees and salaries, being slow on transfers, engaging in wild goose chases in foreign countries etc). TBF I was pretty impressed on the January window. We made some very solid transfers considering the limitations we had. So we should give credit when due.
So you’re just gonna ignore everything on a “hunch”
What is the 'everything' that I am ignoring?
Woodward had put in place Lawlor and Bout for transfers and both men were senior scouts at first team level and reported directly to Woodward. And Lawlor had been at the club since 2005 and Bout was brought to the club by LVG. The problem was that Woodward put himself in the middle of both the manager and scouts because Mourinho wasn't happy working with the club's newly formed recruitment structure which caused a disconnect between the recruitment team and Mourinho.
The head of development has the u21s, u18s, u16s, u14s under his remit. Then you have the parents, scouts, coaches and analysts to deal with. That's the most demanding role as far managing the volume of people is concerned on the football side of the club.
Woodward obviously didn't listen to Murtough because if he did, then the first team structure would've been similar to the one Murtough created at the development level.
The head of development has the u21s, u18s, u16s, u14s under his remit. Then you have the parents, scouts, coaches and analysts to deal with. That's the most demanding role as far managing the volume of people is concerned on the football side of the club.
Woodward obviously didn't listen to Murtough because if he did, then the first team structure would've been similar to the one Murtough created at the development level.
Armand Benneker the Austrian scout and Rangnick's scout from Hoffenheim (Thomas Bormann) has been at the club since 2016. Rangnkck himself relied on the scouts and couldn't do zilch without them.
Identifying a bench player from a top club is something even Woodward would have been able to do, no need to call Rangnick for that.
I don't say this to criticise the transfer, but Sabitzer just isn't an unknown player, he even played well against United when they met Leipzig and surely someone at the club remembers that CL exit.
Everything is the simple fact that Murtough wasn't that involved in the first team affairs until he was appointed as DoF.
The simple fact is that the club didn't have a transitional plan post SAF, and Woodward, for all of his feckups and stupidity, was given an impossible job of running a club like United, he probably was able to perform well in the commercial areas but he knew nothing about running a football club, Murtough was the one who helped with that, and it was obvious that Woodward was giving the managers he hired carte blanche in terms of first team recruitment, and the only time he pushed back was in summer 2018 when he said no to Mou who wanted to bring Persic and Boateng.
All I am saying is that even though Murtough was the guy who Woodward relied upon and eventually appointed him as DoF, Murtough is at least a football person who only got the full control of the football structure once Woodward himself departed in 2022 and since then things started to change bit by bit, and remember this is a football structure that was almost in it's infancy stage hence why Ten Hag was needed not only to train and coach the players but also to help with First team recruitment as well, hopefully in the future it will be an operation that runs in tendem with all its parts (head coach + DoF + Recruitment/scouting), and this winter window has shown an example of that, Sabitzer's acquisition was due to the fact that Eriksen was just confirmed to be injured which forced the folks at United to act quickly, the recruitment team suggested an option which Ten Hag liked and the club then initiated contact with BM and it was completed quickly, perhaps this the start of things getting better but again there is still same way to go and judgement should be reserved for now at least
Sorry I blabered hahhahaha but this is quite a great we are all having here
Alot of mistakes done pre Murtough was repeated afterwards. That include
- Keeping Ole for too long
- Bringing in a semi retired manager as temp manager. I love Rangnick but his football was built on a high line defence, loads of workrate etc. Don't take me wrong that was the way to go but that style shouldn't have been implemented mid term throughout the season, with barely any new staff and with no transfers to strengthen the team. On top of that Ralf was offered a consultancy job which we didn't honour
- we overpaid in summer and Arnold/Murtough made themselves look like fools when they went to Turin and Barcelona on wild goose chases. We are not in game of thrones. These sort of things could be easily be sorted via email, telephone and skype with no need for these two to go there and end up returning home looking like idiots.
- we went for Arnautovic. Anyone with half a brain would notice that such deal would cause the fans to riot.
However as said I am pretty impressed with our January signings particularly (but not solely) around Sabitzer. That was a major coup given our limitations.
There's nothing impressing about getting transfers done. What should be applauded is if those transfers correlate to success in the mid to long-term with the principles of Erik ten Hag as the blue print going forward.
It's easier to be well run as a football club imo than to be badly run. When a dual structure is created at first team level due to the chief executive wanting to oversee the football side of the club. Then it's not a surprise to see a disconnect develop between a first team manager and the recruitment department that was in it's infancy in 2016/17. And I can understand the paranoia which seems to have developed after what has occurred in the last 8/9 years.
The dominant playstyle in the big leagues right now is high possession/high intensity with a off the ball pressing structure. Rangnick's style was dated in that regard and it's easy to see why a team like Bayern never hired him because their approach is more dominant on the ball without sacrificing the off the ball, methodical approach to pressing.
This hard on for constantly shitting on the club at every opportunity for being inept and then subsequently claiming that every positive piece of news is a “brief” or a “PR Piece” is getting fecking tiresome.
Anyone would think we want to wallow in our own self pity and constantly want the club to fail so we can circle jerk ourselves to death for being the worlds worst run club. It’s almost as if we revel in the club being badly run.
To be fair, there's been about three stories that have come out in the last week by prominent journalists all saying the same thing about the 'new' way things are done, emphasizing the "no dickheads" policy etc etc. Hard to see them as anything but press briefs. Will be very interesting to see how that "no dickheads" policy stands up to scrutiny after today's news.
What am I to do with this?
It’s highlighting why this talk of a “briefing” is a load of utter tosh.
I've got an irrational dislike for Darren Fletcher.
Mental images of him slithering around the technical area, interfering with Rangnick managing, putting his nose where it shouldn't be.
I'll always see him as part of the bad period we've had.
I hope the new owners get rid of him and some of the other monkeys around him asap. Bring in people with actual pedigree in that role.
Mental images of him slithering around the technical area, interfering with Rangnick managing, putting his nose where it shouldn't be.
I'll always see him as part of the bad period we've had.
I hope the new owners get rid of him and some of the other monkeys around him asap. Bring in people with actual pedigree in that role.
It mightn't be because of the reason that tweeter was saying but there was several journos essentially writing the same article over the last few weeks and that isn't a coincidence.
It’s not shitting on the club to call that article what it is. It’s clear PR aimed at making Arnold look good. Maybe he is maybe he isn’t but it’s just following same blueprint as other PR pieces written about Woodward, Ole, Murtough etc.
It’s just what happens when things are going well, everyone wants their share of the credit. Not so ok ago Arnold was responsible for nothing and totally blameless now he’s some sort of puppet master pulling all the strings. The truth will most be somewhere in between the gulf of those two.
This works both ways though
What happened to Darren Fletcher, barely seen him or heard his name this season. Did Ten Hag come in and ask why a person with zero experience was in such a role?
As already caveated by the journalist, these articles were always going to be scheduled on the one year anniversary. The club performance is irrelevant. Ducker isn't just going to scrap his scheduled evaluations if the club is doing bad.
Well the club has been atrociously run in recent years, so a degree of scepticism is hardly surprising.
Beyond that I totally agree with you. PR puff pieces are annoying as hell when they are quite obviously not a true reflection of reality, which was often the case in the Woodward era (Cultural Reset? Bah!). But now there’s clear progress on the football side, I find it hard to resent them for publicising the ways that things have changed for the better.