Manchester United name John Murtough as Football Director and Darren Fletcher as Technical Director

[wolvored]

Perhaps Woodward was hampering Judge before by either flatly going out to try and buy a player, or offering ridiculous amounts. Having the final say. Who knows.

 

[SmashedHombre]

His real challenge will be selling our deadwood and streamlining our heavily bloated squad.

 

[sp_107]

His real challenge will be selling our deadwood and streamlining our heavily bloated squad.

Wondering who will make it to deadwood list

 

[dove]

Judge reports to Murtough so the structure seems to be making a difference .

When Judge reported directly to Woodward his performance was markedly different.

Way too early to judge and praise someone. All the groundwork was already done for Sancho last year. For Varane, we surprisingly found a target that is a) very good player, b) really keen on joining us, c) last year on contract and d) selling club in quite a desperate need for money and willing to sell for quite a good price. This was as a straightforward deal as it comes IMO and is the type of deal that a lot of top clubs in Europe are constantly doing except us, so finally we did it too and credit should go to whoever identified Varane as a target.

 

[JPRouve]

Way too early to judge and praise someone. All the groundwork was already done for Sancho last year. For Varane, we surprisingly found a target that is a) very good player, b) really keen on joining us, c) last year on contract and d) selling club in quite a desperate need for money and willing to sell for quite a good price. This was as a straightforward deal as it comes IMO and is the type of deal that a lot of top clubs in Europe are constantly doing except us, so finally we did it too and credit should go to whoever identified Varane as a target.

Pretty much. Now I'm going to troll a little bit, who was the player that Woodward namechecked in the article that he ordered in 2018 on deadline day?

 

[Adnan]

Judge reports to Murtough so the structure seems to be making a difference .

When Judge reported directly to Woodward his performance was markedly different.

This is correct, and the club have confirmed as such in the below link. Murtough is in charge of the whole football operations side of the club and not only does Matt Judge report to him, but also the likes of Court, Bout and Lawlor etc.

https://www.manutd.com/en/news/deta...t-of-football-director-and-technical-director

 

[SmashedHombre]

Wondering who will make it to deadwood list

Lingard, Pereira, Tuanzebe, Jones and one of DeGea/Henderson all need to leave the club IMO. Also wouldn't be the end of the world if Martial and/or James left.

 

[Ole'sattheWheel]

Good so far but just wary that this is all due to:

1) Covid lowering prices
2) Glazers spending to placate fans after super League fiasco
3) Getting lucky with top class players not having anywhere else to go.

Let's see how we do over the next few windows to properly judge the new structure, although I am very pleased so far

 

[jem]

Wondering who will make it to deadwood list

I'd start with Pereira, Jones and Lingard (well LIndard isn't really deadwood, but he'd fetch a nice sum.) I'd probably throw James in there as well.

 

[hungrywing]

No. What kind of structure are you seeing? We have signed a player that we wanted last summer for the price that we were allegedlinh willing to pay last summer and we are signing a player that we wanted in the past when he is on his way out due to his own wishes.

I see positive results(which isn't a first) but I don't see a particular structure behind the transfers. I don't even know what it is suppposed to mean.

Never said I did. If you don't see any, fair enough.

 

[hungrywing]

He's done a superb job thus far and I'm not even talking about the signings of Sancho and potentially Varane. He's completely revamped the academy, scouting and created from scratch a data analysis department, which has given the club the foundations to be more thorough in identifying talent.

I know many on here can't look past the first team. But if one looks at it holistically, then he's done a brilliant job in putting in place mechanisms which have culminated in us now having several recruitment divisions covering the entire globe when it comes to identifying talent and also a analytics department which Murtough created from scratch which created roles for several individuals which is headed by Mick Court.

If it ever comes to light that he'd backed Ole for the likes of Haaland and Bellingham and met with resistance from Woodfizzle, I wouldn't be surprised at all.

Judge reports to Murtough so the structure seems to be making a difference .

When Judge reported directly to Woodward his performance was markedly different.

To be fair, anything other than this-

Judge: They're asking for fifty-eight and the player wants one seven oh. I think I can talk them down to fifty and one-twenty-
Woodfart: Who do you think we are? Give them eighty and give the player two-fifty. Show them I'm - we're not some cheapskates. We must not show weakness. We must always show strength. I am Manchester United. You will show them I am not to be trifled with, won't you, Matthew?
Judge: Uh, yessir.

-is going to feel pretty normal/refreshing.

 

[Bastian]

I'm going to assume this is all down to structural changes at the club, as our record prior speaks of criminal negligence. Now let's hope they can sell players too and we figure out midfield before the window shuts.

 

[Mickeza]

Pretty much. Now I'm going to troll a little bit, who was the player that Woodward namechecked in the article that he ordered in 2018 on deadline day?

Just to troll even further Cavani was long rumoured to be Woodward’s dream signing too before we got him last year. I’d also like to point out not a single person on this forum was calling Woodward incompetent when we signed Schweinsteiger, Darmian and Schneiderlin in the space of two days - or when we signed Bailly, Mikhi, Zlatan and Pogba in a summer without even having CL football.

 

[Kag]

Nobody has a fecking clue what this bloke does or doesn’t do.

The magical ‘DOF’ isn’t the reason we’ve signed Sancho and (seemingly) Varane. The rush to pretend our executors and directors are amazing is just as sad and lacking in credibility as it was when folk pretended they knew what Judge and Woodward were doing.

As far as I’m concerned we had managers like Van Gaal and Mourinho who were absolutely hopeless at building a squad. We’re lucky Ole has proven otherwise.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

The structure is working.

 

[Adnan]

If it ever comes to light that he'd backed Ole for the likes of Haaland and Bellingham and met with resistance from Woodfizzle, I wouldn't be surprised at all.

I don't think the likes of Haaland and Bellingham were deals we could've done due to those players seeing Dortmund as the more logical next step in their fledgling careers.

I think we as as club are now in a much much better position structurally due to the work of Murtough and others, where we now have a modernised structure that will hold us in good stead going forward.

 

[Blood Mage]

His real challenge will be selling our deadwood and streamlining our heavily bloated squad.

Definitely, I can't believe Jones and Peireira are still here. But then who would take them?

 

[tomaldinho1]

Real aren't screwed, they are making a tone of money themselves and more than United. They simply decided to invest in their infrastructure in the last years. Don't listen too much to Perez lame excuse for his greed.

They are nearly 1 billion EUR in debt.

 

[Adnan]

There's numerous articles written on what Murtough's role as Football Director is. Even the club have given a description on what his job entails. So for anyone to say, 'no one has a clue on what he does' has had their head buried in the sand.

We signed the likes of Di Maria, Schweinsteiger, Schneiderlin, Rojo etc in the past by backing the judgement of the manager. Rojo for example we signed because Van Gaal and his match analysts felt he was extremely good during the Dutch team's defeat to Argentina in the 2014 world cup semi-finals. So we signed him because of that one match which was confirmed by LVG during a MUTV interview when we signed the player.

The difference now is that we have the heads of recruitment from different departments involved in the first team recruitment process which is well documented and it has given us stability which is the key thing in any successful operation on the football side.

'Stability'

 

[JPRouve]

They are nearly 1 billion EUR in debt.

Which doesn't tell you that they are screwed, out of that you have a 30 years loan representing 575m. Which is mainly spent on infrastructures.

 

[Ramshock]

His real challenge will be selling our deadwood and streamlining our heavily bloated squad.

its not that bloated but yes some more people need to go

 

[Eplel]

Real aren't screwed, they are making a tone of money themselves and more than United. They simply decided to invest in their infrastructure in the last years. Don't listen too much to Perez lame excuse for his greed.

Real operate a largely unsustainable model, and the only reason they didn't face financial hardship earlier was that the spanish government covered for them.

 

[hungrywing]

I don't think the likes of Haaland and Bellingham were deals we could've done due to those players seeing Dortmund as the more logical next step in their fledgling careers.

I think we as as club are now in a much much better position structurally due to the work of Murtough and others, where we now have a modernised structure that will hold us in good stead going forward.

Might not just have been that.

You might be surprised just how petty and spiteful people like Woodsplat can be. They will sabotage deals that are good for the organization (but championed by their 'rivals') if they believe it'll make them look better/hold onto power a little while longer.

- They'll do things like act disinterested or aloof and not really give 100% support when you ask them to come along to a meeting to recruit one of the most promising strikers of his generation.
- If they see your camp nailing footballing decision after footballing decision and proving you wrong time and again, they'll sign a player you vetoed just to try and look like they can make a 'footballing decision' too, and get a player that was wanted by another 'big' club and dare you to rock the boat about the veto thing.

Not saying that's necessarily what happened. But this sort of behavior is exactly consistent with people who do things like what he did to Evra/Rooney/LvG/Rio and who say things like 'disneyland' and 'watch this space' etc etc. Those are well-documented behavioral traits of narcissists, of which Woodward is pretty much a facepalmingly-textbook example.

Again, *if* that's how it went down, with Ole/Murtough pushing for Bruno, Woodward pushing back, Ole/Murtough pushing for Bellingham and Woodward pushing back (could be as 'innocuous' as 'I let you have Mejbri, we're not pushing the boat out for this one'), Ole/Murtough pushing for Haaland, Woodward playing a stupid internal power game and seeing Haaland turn into a 100m+ prospect; then the 'DvB being a Woodward transfer' is EXACTLY the kind of thing a person like Woodward would do.

If you're in an organization with a Woodward, and you and your team are being proven right again and again in opposition to him/her, you literally would have to watch out for him/her pulling something like that to try and remain relevant after losing so much face within the organization. They'll do outlandish things to try and show they still have power. ESL another case in point.

It's not too difficult to see that it's no different in principle to a middle-manager feeling threatened by a popular new employee and suddenly calling for extra meetings or cracking down on some previously accepted regimen.

Again, this is IF there's been friction between the Ole/Murtough camp and Woodsmeg regarding transfers. The chain of events (and Woodfart's personality profile) fits the pattern so perfectly that it's hard to discount it outright.

 

[Adnan]

Might not just have been that.

You might be surprised just how petty and spiteful people like Woodsplat can be. They will sabotage deals that are good for the organization (but championed by their 'rivals') if they believe it'll make them look better/hold onto power a little while longer.

- They'll do things like act disinterested or aloof and not really give 100% support when you ask them to come along to a meeting to recruit one of the most promising strikers of his generation.
- If they see your camp nailing footballing decision after footballing decision and proving you wrong time and again, they'll sign a player you vetoed just to try and look like they can make a 'footballing decision' too, and get a player that was wanted by another 'big' club and dare you to rock the boat about the veto thing.

Not saying that's necessarily what happened. But this sort of behavior is exactly consistent with people who do things like what he did to Evra/Rooney/LvG/Rio and who say things like 'disneyland' and 'watch this space' etc etc. Those are well-documented behavioral traits of narcissists, of which Woodward is pretty much a facepalmingly-textbook example.

Again, *if* that's how it went down, with Ole/Murtough pushing for Bruno, Woodward pushing back, Ole/Murtough pushing for Bellingham and Woodward pushing back (could be as 'innocuous' as 'I let you have Mejbri, we're not pushing the boat out for this one'), Ole/Murtough pushing for Haaland, Woodward playing a stupid internal power game and seeing Haaland turn into a 100m+ prospect; then the 'DvB being a Woodward transfer' is EXACTLY the kind of thing a person like Woodward would do.

If you're in an organization with a Woodward, and you and your team are being proven right again and again in opposition to him/her, you literally would have to watch out for him/her pulling something like that to try and remain relevant after losing so much face within the organization. They'll do outlandish things to try and show they still have power. ESL another case in point.

It's not too difficult to see that it's no different in principle to a middle-manager feeling threatened by a popular new employee and suddenly calling for extra meetings or cracking down on some previously accepted regimen.

Again, this is IF there's been friction between the Ole/Murtough camp and Woodsmeg regarding transfers. The chain of events (and Woodfart's personality profile) fits the pattern so perfectly that it's hard to discount it outright.

I think we can all agree Woodward has made mistakes. But the likes of Bellingham and Haaland were always destined for Dortmund, especially Bellingham who according to the Midlands based journos felt he wouldn't have got enough game time at United.

 

[hungrywing]

I think we can all agree Woodward has made mistakes. But the likes of Bellingham and Haaland were always destined for Dortmund, especially Bellingham who according to the Midlands based journos felt he wouldn't have got enough game time at United.

Things like 'disneyland' and Wazza-gate and what he did to Rio/Evra aren't 'mistakes'. Again, however, zero expectation of the average poster being able to understand these are clinically defined behaviors.

Bellingham, maybe.

Haaland, no. The 'we don't do release clauses' rhetoric is also consistent with narcissism and wouldn't have been an issue were the club being run competently. There's a very strong possibility that Haaland Sr.'s 'we didn't feel the rest of the club wanted us as much as Ole did' is an allusion to Woodward's demeanour during the recruitment meeting.

This would be about the time that internally, Woodward had suffered a major 'blow' in finally having to acquiesce to Bruno, along with his most touted high-profile signing Sanchez probably being internally earmarked for a permanent shipping out around this time as well.

People who have the condition that Woodward has go into 'you f*ck with what I built, I'm going to mess with you as well' mode. Basically it's throwing toys out of the pram.

 

[Adnan]

Things like 'disneyland' and Wazza-gate and what he did to Rio/Evra aren't 'mistakes'. Again, however, zero expectation of the average poster being able to understand these are clinically defined behaviors.

Bellingham, maybe.

Haaland, no. The 'we don't do release clauses' rhetoric is also consistent with narcissism and wouldn't have been an issue were the club being run competently. There's a very strong possibility that Haaland Sr.'s 'we didn't feel the rest of the club wanted us as much as Ole did' is an allusion to Woodward's demeanour during the recruitment meeting.

This would be about the time that internally, Woodward had suffered a major 'blow' in finally having to acquiesce to Bruno, along with his most touted high-profile signing Sanchez probably being internally earmarked for a permanent shipping out around this time as well.

People who have the condition that Woodward has go into 'you f*ck with what I built, I'm going to mess with you as well' mode. Basically it's throwing toys out of the pram.

Would you have been okay with signing Haaland with a release clause in the contract?

 

[hungrywing]

Would you have been okay with signing Haaland with a release clause in the contract?

That's kind of the wrong question to ask. Correct question is 'Would Raiola have proposed such a clause if SAF were in charge?'

Most important thing to understand is Raiola proposed that clause because it was Woodward in charge. Anyone else in charge at any 'top' club, he doesn't do that. Do you understand the social dynamics of why?

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

To be fair, anything other than this-

Judge: They're asking for fifty-eight and the player wants one seven oh. I think I can talk them down to fifty and one-twenty-
Woodfart: Who do you think we are? Give them eighty and give the player two-fifty. Show them I'm - we're not some cheapskates. We must not show weakness. We must always show strength. I am Manchester United. You will show them I am not to be trifled with, won't you, Matthew?
Judge: Uh, yessir.

-is going to feel pretty normal/refreshing.

hehehe, true.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Way too early to judge and praise someone. All the groundwork was already done for Sancho last year. For Varane, we surprisingly found a target that is a) very good player, b) really keen on joining us, c) last year on contract and d) selling club in quite a desperate need for money and willing to sell for quite a good price. This was as a straightforward deal as it comes IMO and is the type of deal that a lot of top clubs in Europe are constantly doing except us, so finally we did it too and credit should go to whoever identified Varane as a target.

My perspective is more to do with the fact that Woodward and Judge are mates, who go way back. Rarely a good mix for a direct reporting relationship..

 

[TsuWave]

They all should be knighted if they get us a bad boy DM this window

 

[Adnan]

That's kind of the wrong question to ask. Correct question is 'Would Raiola have proposed such a clause if SAF were in charge?'

Most important thing to understand is Raiola proposed that clause because it was Woodward in charge. Anyone else in charge at any 'top' club, he doesn't do that. Do you understand the social dynamics of why?

I think Raiola most definitely would've proposed such a clause if SAF was in charge. It suits Raiola to have the clause hence Raiola having a great relationship with various stepping stone clubs, where it suits the young player and suits Raiola who can earn a big commission in the not too distant future. It suited both the player and Raiola for Haaland to join Dortmund, who will sell him next year for a fixed sum with a big commission coming Raiola's way.

 

[sglowrider]

His real challenge will be selling our deadwood and streamlining our heavily bloated squad.

Murtough's first real test.

 

[sp_107]

I'd start with Pereira, Jones and Lingard (well LIndard isn't really deadwood, but he'd fetch a nice sum.) I'd probably throw James in there as well.

What about adding Dalot / Baily / Williams / Martial to the list

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Lingard, Pereira, Tuanzebe, Jones and one of DeGea/Henderson all need to leave the club IMO. Also wouldn't be the end of the world if Martial and/or James left.

I'd sell all of those. And one of DDG/Henderson and Tuanzebe/Bailley. It would open up a lot of room for wages. Other than improving midfield this is abother challenge for our management to get done quickly

 

[amolbhatia50k]

What about adding Dalot / Baily / Williams / Martial to the list

Missed to add him. Definitely.

 

[sglowrider]

What about adding Dalot / Baily / Williams / Martial to the list

And replacing them with who? We arent challenging at all fronts with 18-20players only.

 

[Red Company]

its not that bloated but yes some more people need to go

Not sure that’s accurate. It’s very bloated.

Let’s start with a breakdown of the squad.

Our current starting 11 looks something like: DDG, Shaw, Maguire, Varane, AWB, Pogba, McT, Bruno, Rashford, Cavani & Sancho.

Our ideal bench looks like: Henderson, Lindelof, Telles, Fred, VDB, Greenwood & Martial.

That leaves us with the next best bench options: Heaton, Amad, one of Bailly/Tuanzebe, one of Dalot/Williams, Matic.

That leaves us with the following players:
Grant, Jones, Pereira, Mata, Lingard, one of Bailly/Tuanzebe, one of Dalot/Williams.

So we now have 7 players we need to move on immediately. Some of whom are on highly debatable contracts (Jones, Lingard, Bailly & Matic) which is really alarming considering they’re literally just deadwood. So I don’t know how many players would make the word ‘bloated’ seem fair to you but numerically & financially combined, it definitely suits our deadwood.

By the way - these are just the immediate players we need to get rid of. There’s further planning required about how to get rid of some other players as well once we have to start integrating more of our youth players into the first team which aren’t that far off. Mejbri, Elanga, Laird, Pellistri & maybe Mengi too if I was to name a few.

However for now I’d be happy just to get started with the 7 players I mentioned. Even these will ideally take this window and another 1/2 to get moved on.

Edit: on a side note - the real mission for Murtough & team begins now.

We need to replace quite a few players apart from the deadwood that needs to go. Players like Pogba, Martial, one or both of DDG/Hendo, AWB, Fred & McT all have a lot to prove yet.

We also need another striker once Cavani goes and I’m really looking forward to signing Haaland considering how close he apparently is to Ole as well as test our new DOF etc to see if they can really pull his signing off.

 

[jem]

What about adding Dalot / Baily / Williams / Martial to the list

Martial definitely not - it amazes me how short people's memories with regard to him. I'm fine with Bailly as a squad player. Dalot and Williams probably don't have much of a future at United.

 

[ghagua]

Lingard, Pereira, Tuanzebe, Jones and one of DeGea/Henderson all need to leave the club IMO. Also wouldn't be the end of the world if Martial and/or James left.

I would keep De Gea over Henderson. I know everyone praises Henderson, but I just don't feel confident he is the keeper we need. I would Add Bailly to that list. They have all had their chances and failed to take advantage of their opportunities.

 

[TrustInOle]

I would keep De Gea over Henderson. I know everyone praises Henderson, but I just don't feel confident he is the keeper we need. I would Add Bailly to that list. They have all had their chances and failed to take advantage of their opportunities.

Having a solid two CB,s in front of him could do him the world of good!