I think they will assess further down but you can’t persist with the people at the top. They have a track record of failure, the optics of keeping them are bad and you buy yourself a bit of time by rebuilding. There’s no incentive to keep them and if going to get rid of them needs to be done ASAP.
Manchester United name John Murtough as Football Director and Darren Fletcher as Technical Director
- Thread starter Tom Van Persie
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I think they will assess further down but you can’t persist with the people at the top. They have a track record of failure, the optics of keeping them are bad and you buy yourself a bit of time by rebuilding. There’s no incentive to keep them and if going to get rid of them needs to be done ASAP.
Ii agree
Fletcher's influence at the club is mainly with the youth players and their integration into the first team team. Things like training with the first team etc. And you need people like Fletcher who have walked the walk, to guide young hopefuls to settle into environments where they're sharing a dressing room with household names in the first team. It makes the life of both the young player and a new head coach a little easier if a person like Fletcher is on hand to smooth over a transition from the youth team to the first team. This shouldn't even be a topic of discussion at this point but when one has little understanding of how a football club is structured on the football side of the club, then everyone working at the club is a problem in their minds.
The role of the DoF was a simple one, where you had one guy who was in charge of the club's football operations where his role was to empower people running the recruitment, Sports science, medical, and currently the data science department etc. His role wasn't to directly run any of the aforementioned departments but rather to oversee those departments and if required to appoint people to run said departments. It's why the most successful clubs promote from within the club. But the problem at United has been a weak board of directors which started with Chairman Joel Glazer and then David Gill. And the DoF isn't part of the board of directors.
And when it comes to recruitment, the most important people are the heads of recruitment who lead the recruitment department. But there's a lack of understanding on the role of the heads of recruitment and many fans are led to believe that the DoF is the one who is a super scout type of figure who does all the scouting and helps the head coach. But it's actually the heads of recruitment who support the DoF and then the DoF can support the head coach. And the media and the fan cams conflate the role of the DoF and head of recruitment and make the casual fan believe that a DoF is a super scout type of figure. So take Michael Edwards at Liverpool, the scouting at the club was being run by Barry Hunter and Dave Fallows who were in charge of identifying potential new recruits at first team level. But once they had success the credit was given to Edwards who didn't scout players. The biggest difference will come if we have a owner who takes a active interest in wanting us to be successful. The media have made the role of a DoF like he's a celebrity, when in reality it's a role that is needed due to the system it brings forth. And it's that system where you have multiple football departments working in-sync which will help the head coach going forward. So the most important thing is to have a DoF model. I don't particularly care who the DoF is, as long as we have a system in place which is empowered right from the very top.
The DoF in Italy who did well was Cristiano Giuntoli who was at Napoli for 8 years. And the reason I say he did well was because he developed a team with the likes of Sarri and then Spaletti that played attacking football. It took a number of years but they eventually won the league last year ending a 33 year wait. So what isn't important here is who the players he signed, but rather what's important here is the direction he set as a Sporting director in tandem with the head coach. Because if the direction of travel is set and well defined, then the scouting, data analytics etc will follow. It took 8 years but he developed a team with the support and patience of the Napoli President.
For me the best person for the role of DoF is someone who has a vision on how they want to develop a team to play a proactive attacking brand of football. I've seen us linked to Dougie Freedman who I know very little about but I would be open to giving him a chance. And from abroad I've been very impressed with the work of Simon Rolfes at Leverkusen who is a former Leverkusen player and was promoted from the youth setup at the club where he was managing their academy. And in his 4 years since being promoted, him and and his team together with Xabi Alonso (head coach) have developed a very exciting team that plays through the thirds, presses high and also has strong players at containing the opponent's transitions. Even Rangnick couldn't develop his team in such a way and his flaw was that he would neglect the build up through midfield by going direct and using the press and counter press as a defense mechanism. But against teams who developed a bulld up strategy, Rangnick's ideas failed hence him being backed by the wealth of the RedBull group and his strategy of having two runners at the base of the midfield was a dated concept. It's why I rate a DoF on direction set and not players signed. Because players signed are mainly down to the work of the scouting department.
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But Maldini has nicer hair and an Italian accent so can’t we replace that Scottish clogger despite the good work he’s been doing.
We shouldn’t even be giving jobs to Fergies son anyway, talk about nepotism
True, but let's be honest here - It's our financial strength, which is based on things which happened decades ago, that has been keeping us afloat.
Kneejerk. How could they have already assessed him when he just joined the Tuesday before last?
It’s the right decision to let go Murtough.
I know that working under the Glazers with all the constraints is one of the toughest jobs. However, after taking in charge of two summer transfer windows, it’s clear to see that he is not creative nor innovative enough short term and long term. Maybe he can do a good job in a more established structure but for ManUtd we are expecting him to create that structure. In any serious business, the performance like that will surely result in layoff.
I know that working under the Glazers with all the constraints is one of the toughest jobs. However, after taking in charge of two summer transfer windows, it’s clear to see that he is not creative nor innovative enough short term and long term. Maybe he can do a good job in a more established structure but for ManUtd we are expecting him to create that structure. In any serious business, the performance like that will surely result in layoff.
That is still questionable regarding what type of structure.
His previous experience at Everton where he worked under Moyes, who pretty much heavy lifting large part of first team recruitment for Everton first team. There is no telling whether he can do well as the spear head of a club like Dougie Freedman for Crystal Palace, without an old school manager type. I don't think any clubs that has prominent DoF / sporting director role would want him since he's inexperienced/ having terrible track of record of wasting resources.
Murtough looks like some cartoon rodent i've seen, can't place it...
Definitely from a Christmassy show/movie though.
Definitely from a Christmassy show/movie though.
Van Gaal deployed 3 CB in the league before it was cool.
And went looking for left footed cb to play on the left side. And got mocked for it
Geniuses are often mistaken as mad men. Nothing new here.
Jerry the mouse when hes high on acid
As said ideally we have a staggered approach to things. However I am not against a total and sudden revamp either. Let's face it, United is poorly run. Its poorly run at high level (ex we overspend in fees and salaries and we let the manager to call all the shots in terms of signings), our fitness is horrifying, we pick too many injuries and we leak more then the titanic. Pr is also horrible (ex how we tackled the greenwood story), too many kids lost their way (greenwood, lingard, pogba) and there is a general scenes of complacency in the club. That can't be pinned to just Arnold and murtough
No it can’t just be pinned on them but they have ridden the gravy train for years, they took their roles knowing how poorly run the club is, knowing all these issues and knowing they wouldn’t t be able to fix them. If they were people with real genuine ambition and drive to really succeed they wouldn’t have been made CEO and Football Director because they’d be at odds with the ownership. They are Glazer men through and through and there’s no place form them if things are changing. I imagine a lot of the leadership and management beneath them could be similar as well so most of the senior roles will need new appointments.
I see John Murtough is assuming the classic Glazer position of un-flushable turd.
He underestimates the size of Jim's plunger.
Think he'll need Dyno-rod for this one.
Mocked? We were all asleep
Using that logic then nobody will join us since the glazers are still the majority owners
Well they will because they are going to be sold change and INEOS having sporting control. How far that will extend we have no idea but people will be brought in expecting the club to be run very differently with different aims and objectives. And if you bring in people with genuine ambition and don’t match that they’ll be gone, that’s why we don’t have a proper DOF.
Murtough/Arnold these guys got the jobs to maintain the status quo and not to rock the boat. You don’t last as long as they have done at a shit show like Utd unless you are happy and part of that environment.
I don’t necessarily disagree with you, I just question the reality of what kind of control a 25% investor will have. Otherwise not much will have changed in that environment.
time will tell
If you ask me, I can't care if the technical director survives or not. The most important thing is whether INEOS has a clear plan in writing were they would get full ownership of the club in X years (less then 5 years)
Same. I was shocked. It seems like most European footballers have a decent command of English.
I think we all have that same question, especially if there is not a clear and agreed pathway to majority ownership for SJR.
SJR must believe he has a mandate to change things, he wouldn’t be spending all this money otherwise, whether that’s true we can only wait and see.
To be fair, Fletcher wasn't doing his normal job while Rangnick was here. He'd had to step into the gaping hole of our coaching staff as we literally didn't have anyone else. Rangnick himself also said that he while he was here he was focused purely on the players and squad, not involved with the more upper management or background staff. Put those two things together and it's hardly surprising he didn't know exactly what Fletcher's normal duties were.
I would say 99% of the criticisms of Fletcher come purely due to the fact that his job title is much more grandiose than what he actually does. Unless he's getting paid like a top Technical Director in the normal sense, his job title ultimately means nothing. I would say the role he is actually doing is one that is well suited to an ex-player of the club, and I would point out that there are many top teams that have many more ex-players throughout their staffing structure than what we do. The only important thing is whether he's doing well in that role and that's not something that anyone here on this forum can know. If the new CEO/DoF/etc come in and judge that they have a better alternative then by all means let him go or move him into another role, but it is strange that people put him alongside Arnold and Murtough.
Worded it far better than I ever could, totally agree
I never liked the way certain things ran around Fletcher. I didn't like how he was given a long term contract despite us knowing of his illness, something I felt was setting a dangerous precedence which would be exploited in the future (which it did) and I was certainly against his quick rise to prominence from U16 coach to first team coach right to technical director in matter of mere months. I believe those are fair comments to make TBH. There again, I understand that the Fletcher's argument might be quite sensitive for certain people and I fully respect that.
In my opinion United had never gone through a restructuring process. Sure certain roles had been created and filled but when one look at the end result there's nothing to suggest that things had changed. We still buy the players the manager want, we still overspend both in terms of fees and salaries, we still shift from one style to another (Ole to Rangnick/ETH), we still struggle to sell players, we leak too much info, our fitness regime is horrific and players tend to lose form and go in mediocrity after a year. In an ideal world we should go through a staggered approach were the club would first replace the most senior roles and then have a look if further changes in personnel is needed. But there are some compelling arguments being made in a big bang approach as well (I suggest the muppetiers latest video)
In the mid term I hope that we should also look for upgrades rather then simply replacing rotten apples. Maldini for example could be a nice addition as technical director in a traditional sense. He's been in the game for way longer then Fletcher was and he successfully covered a more senior version of TD then Fletcher did in a scenario (ie a cash strapped club) that is more challenging than that at United were money seem not to be a problem. As a brand name there's not many people out there with the aura and the level of respect Maldini has. That could play an important part in persuading young players to join the club or sign a contract extension. I wouldn't want him as a DOF as he never covered that role before.
Finally I do believe that we need one or two former United players around as long as they are willing to learn and they have the skills and the experience that matches the role given to them. If Fletcher wants to get involved, he's not part of the rotten part of the club and he's willing to take a role under the criteria mentioned before then in my opinion we should go for it.
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I think you’re confusing the title with the actual job @devilish
tbh don’t blame you, they shouldn’t have called it that in the first place as it’s confused a lot of people who can’t or won’t read the explanations given, even by Fletcher himself
tbh don’t blame you, they shouldn’t have called it that in the first place as it’s confused a lot of people who can’t or won’t read the explanations given, even by Fletcher himself
Howson had just commented about Fletcher role in his latest video (Murtough's U-turn if you want to double check). It seem that the SP team had asked Fletcher what he does at United and the answer was so vague that they weren't any wiser about his role afterwards.
In my opinion, Fletcher's role is a fudge which is typical in a poorly run club with little to no leadership or experience in what they doing. I strongly believe that his role grows and shrinks according to whether or not the manager wants him around and to what capacity. Which kind of explain the vagueness surrounding Fletcher's role by Rangnick, those close to the club and quite frankly most of the fans.
And before anyone accuses me of attacking Fletcher or wanting him out let me make two things clear
a- I don't blame Fletcher for this. Its evident that the club has no clue what its doing, football wise and that goes way beyond Fletcher (ie owners, CEO and DOF)
b- I don't mind Fletcher being involved in the club as long as his role is clearly defined and within his capabilities
C- quite frankly I seriously doubt that he'll be sacked. Can you imagine if a new owner comes in and the first thing he does is to sack an ex player? I can't see that happening.
Put the little gnome on gardening leave already
Unfair on Martinez
They have to have a clear plan and execution path. Otherwise, they would be foolish. And, I don’t think anyone believes they are.
I would expect them starting to put in a structure and it would take two seasons to figuring out the right way. So, more up and down is coming.
How so?
If you want to understand a company then you have to understand the owners. That's because the owners decide the vision and appoint people that share that vision. The Glazers are in real estate. They are the typical business people who buy an asset, they sit on it for as much time as possible while squeezing as much money out of it as possible, then they sell it for a profit because, well, its real estate. Such owners tend to hate change and to take decisions. For example when their favorite former PWC from the University of Bristol CEO left they appointed..........another former PWC from the University of Bristol guy. That's not a coincidence btw. Andy O'Boyle is basically Murtough. He's a former sports scientist who worked in the FA head of elite performance. Which is kind of hilarious when you consider that both our DOF (former sports scientist at Everton) and deputy DOF (Head of Sports Science at Coventry) are in sports science and yet our fitness regimen is probably the worst in the EPL. But hey, data analysts...
The DOF and the TD role didn't appear out of thin air. They were the result of years of pressure from the fans who wanted the club's structure to modernize itself. Both Murtough and Fletcher were inside appointments and had no previous experience in that role whatsoever. Fletcher's coaching career was a few months old when given the TD role. Years later and nothing has really changed. United still spend silly money on players and salaries, our fitness regime is horrible, we still rely heavily if not solely on the manager regarding transfer targets, we still leak information, short termism is still alive and kicking at the club (Sanchez, Falcao, Cavani, Ibra, Casemiro, Varane etc) and players seem to lose their form and descend into mediocrity months after signing with us.
So it really makes you wonder if Fletcher/Murtough are placeholders in jobs that are existent in all but name. Once again I am not blaming Fletcher at all. As Bout said, United are very slow in taking decisions and everything is political there. That's hardly the ideal environment to work with.
I agree especially if rumors that SJR is using his own money to buy the 25% stake + he's investing a further 300m on infrastructure are true.
Good post. You'd think this would give people a bit of humility. The maldini one is very funny... Imagine we saw a forum of Milan fans calling for fletcher to take over there, highlighting the good youngsters we have brought through as a reason.
I personally think maldini would be a staggering appointment by ineos. Same with Van Der Saar idea a few years ago. I can guarantee murtough knows a lot more about what is required for a premiership team than either of them.
The structure needs to be improved, but these threads always read like the entire structure at other clubs s just one head scout who just clicks a button and sign anyone he wants.
A lot of talk about getting the next Bellingham which I find interesting. To get Bellingham in stage one, you need to do what united are good at, offer a path to the first team. To get Bellingham at Dortmund stage, you literally need to be a feeder club - Dortmund take players with a clear understanding they will let them move on after a couple of seasons of proving themselves. Finally, to get Bellingham at Madrid stage, you need to be winning things.
It's as if murtough or whoever was at the top at the time of the Dortmund move looked at Bellingham and said 'no he isn't good'.
There are other models that we could adopt - what RR described for example, signing much younger hungrier players, that are suited physically to a high energy style. That type of model makes sense to me. But the idea that a better scout style director of football lands us Bellingham or haaland is a joke
Sorry the original post is wrong. We are one of world's top 5 or indeed top 3 clubs. We shouldnt be taking punts or promoting the likes of Fletcher even before he has his coaching badges. What has Fletcher achieved, seems noone including some former managers even know what his job is. McKenna and Carrick are doing exactly what they should have been doing, learning their trade at a lower level so they get the experience and knowledge to come to a club like United. McKenna was a youth coach who was overpromoted to first team coach. Its really not that hard to do it properly. I agree its not just one DoF and suddenly its all fine. Our data science is still massively behind the likes of City and Brentford. Our whole scouting is still a mess. But it starts from the top.