Manager draft

@MJJ

The Red Viper (Pep) vs MJJ (Lippi) - MJJ barely for me(Ronaldo vs these two CBs with Baggio occupying Busquets beats that tiki taka and Messi imo).
Harms (Trap) vs Skizzo (Lattek) - Jesus fecking christ I have no idea, I'd give a slight edge to Harms for that defensive line.
Joga Bonito (Lattek) vs Balu/PedroMendez (Guttmann) - Joga's team is incredible, but I'm too thrilled with Balu's stories and the Puskas-Eusebio combo. Balu/PM for me
Cutch (Fergie) vs Edgar Allan Pillow (Capello) - I think Cappilows is the better team, although I'm really not sure I'll have the guts to vote for them eventually. Ronaldo against Maldini :drool:
 
VivaJanuzaj said:
@MJJ

The Red Viper (Pep) vs MJJ (Lippi) - MJJ barely for me(Ronaldo vs these two CBs with Baggio occupying Busquets beats that tiki taka and Messi imo).
Harms (Trap) vs Skizzo (Lattek) - Jesus fecking christ I have no idea, I'd give a slight edge to Harms for that defensive line.
Joga Bonito (Lattek) vs Balu/PedroMendez (Guttmann) - Joga's team is incredible, but I'm too thrilled with Balu's stories and the Puskas-Eusebio combo. Balu/PM for me
Cutch (Fergie) vs Edgar Allan Pillow (Capello) - I think Cappilows is the better team, although I'm really not sure I'll have the guts to vote for them eventually. Ronaldo against Maldini :drool:
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I really dont see ronaldo getting much credit in that battle, even garrincha struggled against maldini(draft game wise).

Think you are spot on with most here(:p), would be surprisedd to see both the latteks go out though.
 
MJJ said:
I really dont see ronaldo getting much credit in that battle, even garrincha struggled against maldini(draft game wise).
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I wonder if Cutch might drop Giggs and move Ronaldo to the left wing vs Panucci. Ronaldo, Cantona and RVN all attacking a Beckham cross sounds pretty tasty to me, even against EAP's defence.
 
harms has added considerable strenth to this team at both ends with Tardelli and Batigol. That defence is as exciting as Skizzo's offence. What a mgihty battle this would be with Skizzo himself strenghtening his defence. Looks like both these teams have been reinforced with each other in mind !!!

TRV's strategy should be obvious, but MJJ has thrown a curveball with his reinforcements. Totally unexpected. Should be a total surprise.

Balu just keeps piling up the midfield/attack to stratospheric levels here. He'll probably end up with a sweeper Keeper midfield and 9 attackers (.5-.5-9) if he gets to finals, imo. Can Matthaus stop Balu. Would be interesting to see his defence against Hoeness and Jensen.
 
Pat_Mustard said:
:lol: He will be, although personally I rated him highly. This isn't a popular or even a rational opinion, but Costacurta is the one player out of that defence who never entirely lived up to his reputation for me.
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I agree. Never understood the hype around Costacurta. He's of course a quality centerback and a great fit next to his partners from that legendary backline but individually nowhere near that all time top tier. He wouldn't stand out in the game today despite the lack of great centerbacks in my opinion.
 
Balu said:
I agree. Never understood the hype around Costacurta. He's of course a quality centerback and a great fit next to his partners from that legendary backline but individually nowhere near that all time top tier. He wouldn't stand out in the game today despite the lack of great centerbacks in my opinion.
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Is there a hype though? I don't think that he is considered as one of the best defenders ever, only as a part of one of the best defensive lines. Surely he won't stop Garrincha on his own like Maldini or organize defence like Baresi would in those draft games?

It's like playing Brown in United backline of 07/09 (hype much? :D)
 
harms said:
I don't think that he is considered as one of the best defenders ever
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I'm pretty sure EAP rates him very highly and will strongly disagree as soon as he comes online and reads those comments ;)
 
Costacurta was a better defender than what was immediately obvious. Some defenders catch the eye with their tackling, man-marking, physical strength... Costacurta's trump card was his positioning, a quality that is much harder to appreciate, but one that also explains how he kept going into his 40s. Positioning is ageless. I can't think of any Capello defenders who actually would be an upgrade, let alone one worth breaking up the proven chemistry.

Re: Panucci, I had actually suggested to EAP that he got Tassotti as his sub just in case he ever faced a tricky winger. He couldn't as for some reason Stob decided to play him at wingback. It was more cosmetics/marketing: "defensive fullback = safe". Fact is Panucci was a very good defender in his own right but also had that knack of joining the attack at the right time and in the right way. Not an attacking fullback who kept coming and going but one that timed and executed his interventions extremely well, which explains why a conservative manager like Capello took him along everywhere he went.

Sexiness aside, I don't think Cristiano should start. Certainly not for Beckham (regardless of Maldini swallowing him up), defo not as a partner to Ruud ahead of Cantona, and his only place being replacing Giggs who IMO belongs in that midfield and better balances it.
 
antohan said:
Costacurta was a better defender than what was immediately obvious. Some defenders catch the eye with their tackling, man-marking, physical strength... Costacurta's trump card was his positioning, a quality that is much harder to appreciate, but one that also explains how he kept going into his 40s. Positioning is ageless.
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I agree. Well said.

Still, it's clear enough that Costacurta gets a few points extra per default simply by remaining with that Milan team for so long, playing alongside defenders who were - undoubtedly - better footballers. It's some sort of Ambrosini syndrome - or indeed a Brown syndrome, had Brown not been a crock and still been at United: A player who is bound to be both overrated and underrated, if you will. To an extent bigged up because he happened to be a part of some great teams - and to an extent unappreciated because he actually had plenty of qualities and because it wasn't coincidental that he was part of said teams.

But Costacurta was indeed a brilliant defender - a very clever one who had precisely what you suggest: That knack for pretty much always being exactly where he needed to be.
 
antohan said:
Sexiness aside, I don't think Cristiano should start. Certainly not for Beckham (regardless of Maldini swallowing him up), defo not as a partner to Ruud ahead of Cantona, and his only place being replacing Giggs who IMO belongs in that midfield and better balances it.
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Seriously?

Ronaldo has to start every time, he's the best forward Fergie ever managed so you need to make room for him. I don't think Maldini would keep him in his pocket either, those extreme views are always nonsense. With that central passing quality of a peak Keane/Scholes/Cantona I can see Ronaldo having lots of success making those diagonal runs towards the box. He won't continually skin Maldini if he receives the ball into his feet, but that's never been the main part of his game.
 
Blasphemy! I leave for some coffee and half my defence gets trash talked upon! :lol:

Costacurta is much more than you give him credit for. Baresi retired in 1996-97 season. Billy was about 31yo at that time. Despite that he was an integral part of the defence winning: Serie A : 1998–99, 2003–04 | Coppa Italia: 2002–03 | Supercoppa Italiana: 2004 | European Cup/UEFA Champions League: 2002–03, 2006–07 | European Super Cup/UEFA Super Cup: 2003. He even won the 2002-03 Champions League playing Right Back.

It would really be unfair to see him as some kind of Baresi lackey.
 
To be fair, I said he's a quality defender and a brilliant fit in that backline, wouldn't call that talking trash upon.

But just to put this into context, I'll dig one of your recent comments in that dearth of great defenders discussion out.
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Blashpemy!

Silva is nearing there, but there is no way, and I mean absolutely not way, Komany, Terry, Rio, Vidic would ever be in the same strata as Baresi, Maldini, Nesta, Costacurta etc
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That's simply nonsense. Costacurta isn't individually a better defender than Thiago Silva, Rio, Terry or Vidic. Put one of them next to Maldini, Nesta or Baresi and you have an outstanding centerback partnership.
 
harms said:
It's like playing Brown in United backline of 07/09 (hype much? :D)
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Crying-gifs-10112013-01.gif
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Crying-gifs-10112013-01.gif
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A joke, of course :lol: Chester understood what I was talking about

He was a fantastic defender and won't be out of place in any backline, but I just rate him lower than some all-time greats like Nesta, for example.
 
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Balu said:
That's simply nonsense. Costacurta isn't individually a better defender than Thiago Silva, Rio, Terry or Vidic. Put one of them next to Maldini, Nesta or Baresi and you have an outstanding centerback partnership.
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harms said:
He was a fantastic defender and won't be out of place in any backline, but I just rate him lower than some all-time greats like Nesta, for example.
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I would partly agree. From a perspective of this match with Cutch, I would rate the defenders are below:

Tier 1: Maldini, Baresi
Tier 2: Stam, Costacurta
Tier 3: Rio
Tier 4: Irwin, Panucci, Neville

Baresi, Maldini or Nesta are all GOAT's, which I agree Costacurta is not. But then I would be very sceptical if Terry and Rio are rated above him.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
I would partly agree. From a perspective of this match with Cutch, I would rate the defenders are below:

Tier 1: Maldini, Baresi
Tier 2: Stam, Costacurta
Tier 3: Rio
Tier 4: Irwin, Panucci, Neville

Baresi, Maldini or Nesta are all GOAT's, which I agree Costacurta is not. But then I would be very sceptical if Terry and Rio are rated above him.
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Rio is easily the 3rd best defender there. And it's not even close.
 
Let's settle this battle via the new draft standards. PES stats ;)

Rio understandable has better passing skills and Billy rated marginally higher in defence and teamwork. It seems Billy suffers consistently from being next to GOAT's all his career!


Rio:

Attack: 64
Defence: 93
Balance: 84
Stamina: 83
Top Speed: 82
Acceleration: 82
Response: 92
Agility: 76
Dribble Accuracy: 78
Dribble Speed: 78
Short Pass Accuracy: 78
Short Pass Speed: 80
Long Pass Accuracy: 77
Long Pass Speed: 77
Shot Accuracy: 65
Shot Power: 80
Shot Technique: 69
Free Kick Accuracy: 69
Curling: 69
Header: 84
Jump: 86
Technique: 80
Aggression: 68
Mentality: 82
Keeper Skills: 50
Teamwork: 80


Billy:

Attack: 57
Defence: 94
Balance: 82
Stamina: 83
Top Speed: 78
Acceleration: 74
Response: 88
Agility: 72
Dribble Accuracy: 75
Dribble Speed: 67
Short Pass Accuracy: 76
Short Pass Speed: 78
Long Pass Accuracy: 70
Long Pass Speed: 72
Shot Accuracy: 60
Shot Power: 75
Shot Technique: 61
Free Kick Accuracy: 64
Curling: 62
Header: 78
Jump: 83
Technique: 80
Aggression: 59
Mentality: 90
Keeper Skills: 50
Teamwork: 91
 
:lol:

Everyone has keeper skills of 50, ffs. What does that mean?

And why is such a huge gap in mentality and teamwork between Costacurta and Rio ?
 
Theon said:
Seriously?

Ronaldo has to start every time, he's the best forward Fergie ever managed so you need to make room for him. I don't think Maldini would keep him in his pocket either, those extreme views are always nonsense. With that central passing quality of a peak Keane/Scholes/Cantona I can see Ronaldo having lots of success making those diagonal runs towards the box. He won't continually skin Maldini if he receives the ball into his feet, but that's never been the main part of his game.
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I'm not disputing his individual quality but what made that team as good as it was was the balance across the midfield four. There's no chance you would or should be willing to lose Beckham's contribution. I can see Ruud and Cantona doing :rolleyes: if they see Cristiano starting ahead of him.

Ahead of Giggs? Makes more sense, but what you gain in firepower you lose in team ethic and defensive discipline. He would be on the same side as Donadoni, and the difference in participation of both attacking and defensive phases would show. You can't expect that not to also have an impact on Scholes' performance, he will have to be more subdued. Is it worth it? I don't think so.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
I would partly agree. From a perspective of this match with Cutch, I would rate the defenders are below:

Tier 1: Maldini, Baresi
Tier 2: Stam, Costacurta
Tier 3: Rio
Tier 4: Irwin, Panucci, Neville

Baresi, Maldini or Nesta are all GOAT's, which I agree Costacurta is not. But then I would be very sceptical if Terry and Rio are rated above him.
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Swap around tier two and three.

That said, it's dangerous to look at CBs in isolation with no regard for fit. I rate Rio very highly and, as Capello, you could pick him later, but I wouldn't. The moment you have Baresi you need a CB who will act as a foil, not one with his own mind of what is going on and what should be done. Just like too many cooks spoil the broth in attack, you want a clear leader in the defence and partners who will sync with his leadership.
 
Theon said:
Seriously?

Ronaldo has to start every time, he's the best forward Fergie ever managed so you need to make room for him. I don't think Maldini would keep him in his pocket either, those extreme views are always nonsense. With that central passing quality of a peak Keane/Scholes/Cantona I can see Ronaldo having lots of success making those diagonal runs towards the box. He won't continually skin Maldini if he receives the ball into his feet, but that's never been the main part of his game.
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Hard to disagree with that.

The counter argument will have to be about overall balance - if there even is a counter argument to be offered. It's potentially a very interesting discussion, because it's not unreasonable to claim that Ronaldo's absolute peak for United coincided with him taking on a role which in more ways than one diminished the roles of others in the team, and in a certain sense made us more one-dimensional than we were prior to him becoming an absolute world beater.

I remember many a match from his most prolific season (goal wise) in which we looked rather horrible until he, yet again, bailed us out with a couple of goals.
 
I would definitely rate Rio above Costacurta. No question about it imo.

But no, if it was RM's Ronaldo than I'd prefer Beckham's crosses to him, with SAF Ronaldo you want the counter attacking quick one not the one who will get to the box for crosses. Giggs is better there with him imo.
 
Balu said:
:lol:

Everyone has keeper skills of 50, ffs. What does that mean?
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It means they aren't goalkeepers. Grosics has 87.

And why is such a huge gap in mentality and teamwork between Costacurta and Rio ?
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See, that's where you have to be extremely careful. You can't get too hung up in the orders of magnitude of gaps, just the picture the relative variations portray, which I find quite reasonable. It does, like Chester mentioned yesterday, miss out on what actually makes players special, e.g. Billy having that knack for being in the right place at the right time, that the numbers won't tell you about.
 
Balu said:
:lol:

Everyone has keeper skills of 50, ffs. What does that mean?

And why is such a huge gap in mentality and teamwork between Costacurta and Rio ?
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Here we enter the video game part of the thing: What is meant by "mentality" is the ability to cope with fatigue. So, if a player has a fairly poor "stamina" this is to an extent cancelled out by him having a high "mentality". It simply means that the higher player X's "mentality" is, the longer he remains at his normal level as the match progresses and his general stats decrease (subtle variations in terms of programming - all players lose some ability as they get progressively more tired).
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Let's settle this battle via the new draft standards. PES stats ;)

Rio understandable has better passing skills and Billy rated marginally higher in defence and teamwork. It seems Billy suffers consistently from being next to GOAT's all his career!


Rio:

Attack: 64
Defence: 93
Balance: 84
Stamina: 83
Top Speed: 82
Acceleration: 82
Response: 92
Agility: 76
Dribble Accuracy: 78
Dribble Speed: 78
Short Pass Accuracy: 78
Short Pass Speed: 80
Long Pass Accuracy: 77
Long Pass Speed: 77
Shot Accuracy: 65
Shot Power: 80
Shot Technique: 69
Free Kick Accuracy: 69
Curling: 69
Header: 84
Jump: 86
Technique: 80
Aggression: 68
Mentality: 82
Keeper Skills: 50
Teamwork: 80


Billy:

Attack: 57
Defence: 94
Balance: 82
Stamina: 83
Top Speed: 78
Acceleration: 74
Response: 88
Agility: 72
Dribble Accuracy: 75
Dribble Speed: 67
Short Pass Accuracy: 76
Short Pass Speed: 78
Long Pass Accuracy: 70
Long Pass Speed: 72
Shot Accuracy: 60
Shot Power: 75
Shot Technique: 61
Free Kick Accuracy: 64
Curling: 62
Header: 78
Jump: 83
Technique: 80
Aggression: 59
Mentality: 90
Keeper Skills: 50
Teamwork: 91
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:lol: what have I unleashed
 
Chesterlestreet said:
I agree. Well said.

Still, it's clear enough that Costacurta gets a few points extra per default simply by remaining with that Milan team for so long, playing alongside defenders who were - undoubtedly - better footballers. It's some sort of Ambrosini syndrome - or indeed a Brown syndrome, had Brown not been a crock and still been at United: A player who is bound to be both overrated and underrated, if you will. To an extent bigged up because he happened to be a part of some great teams - and to an extent unappreciated because he actually had plenty of qualities and because it wasn't coincidental that he was part of said teams.

But Costacurta was indeed a brilliant defender - a very clever one who had precisely what you suggest: That knack for pretty much always being exactly where he needed to be.
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The thing is it is hard to judge Costacurta's true value because you're comparing to all time greats.. obviously he is going to end up looking inferior. If you put Ferdinand alongside Baresi/Maldini.. would he look their equal? But yeah regardless, in my opinion I would rate a Ferdinand over Costacurta.
 
antohan said:
It means they aren't goalkeepers. Grosics has 87.



See, that's where you have to be extremely careful. You can't get too hung up in the orders of magnitude of gaps, just the picture the relative variations portray, which I find quite reasonable. It does, like Chester mentioned yesterday, miss out on what actually makes players special, e.g. Billy having that knack for being in the right place at the right time, that the numbers won't tell you about.
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Precisely. There is no "positioning" stat. The latter would be virtually impossible to reflect through programming as it's a brain thing, not a foot or lung thing, so to speak.
 
Raees said:
The thing is it is hard to judge Costacurta's true value because you're comparing to all time greats.. obviously he is going to end up looking inferior. If you put Ferdinand alongside Baresi/Maldini.. would he look their equal? But yeah regardless, in my opinion I would rate a Ferdinand over Costacurta.
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I prefer Baresi-Costacurta to Baresi-Ferdinand, but prefer Stam-Ferdinand to Stam-Costacurta. It's all about fit, first and foremost.
 
antohan said:
I prefer Baresi-Costacurta to Baresi-Ferdinand, but prefer Stam-Ferdinand to Stam-Costacurta. It's all about fit, first and foremost.
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I totally agree, chemistry and partnerships are essential. How many big name strike partnerships have we seen fail and yet guys like Yorke and Cole were deadly - same applies all over the pitch.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
I would partly agree. From a perspective of this match with Cutch, I would rate the defenders are below:

Tier 1: Maldini, Baresi
Tier 2: Stam, Costacurta
Tier 3: Rio
Tier 4: Irwin, Panucci, Neville

Baresi, Maldini or Nesta are all GOAT's, which I agree Costacurta is not. But then I would be very sceptical if Terry and Rio are rated above him.
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Rio below Stam and Costacurta? Not sure I agree with him. Has been the stand out defender of his generation alongside nesta. Not to mention the fact that you are putting him alongside terry there!
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Precisely. There is no "positioning" stat. The latter would be virtually impossible to reflect through programming as it's a brain thing, not a foot or lung thing, so to speak.
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Judging by the discussions on that forum, positioning is somewhere between defence and response - a players who have high attributes are better in initial positioning (defence) and reading of the game, i.e. adjusting to the situation (response). Maybe I'm wrong though, their system is not entirely clear for me.

Positioning is realized pretty good in FM, for example, you shouldn't underestimate AI, it's very developed today.
 
VivaJanuzaj said:
@MJJ

The Red Viper (Pep) vs MJJ (Lippi) - MJJ barely for me(Ronaldo vs these two CBs with Baggio occupying Busquets beats that tiki taka and Messi imo).
Harms (Trap) vs Skizzo (Lattek) - Jesus fecking christ I have no idea, I'd give a slight edge to Harms for that defensive line.
Joga Bonito (Lattek) vs Balu/PedroMendez (Guttmann) - Joga's team is incredible, but I'm too thrilled with Balu's stories and the Puskas-Eusebio combo. Balu/PM for me
Cutch (Fergie) vs Edgar Allan Pillow (Capello) - I think Cappilows is the better team, although I'm really not sure I'll have the guts to vote for them eventually. Ronaldo against Maldini :drool:
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TRV wins for me, talent in that side with sheer ball possession they'll be afforded is incredible.

Tough game.. Skizzo slightly edges it for me, both teams are solid.. but one has an exceptional attack.

I don't know enough about Balu's defenders here, so at the moment a draw.. Love Joga's signings though.

Easy win for Ed here, his team is one of my favourites to win the entire thing. Take the United bias out of this, I don't think the game would even be close.
 
harms said:
Judging by the discussions on that forum, positioning is somewhere between defence and response - a players who have high attributes are better in initial positioning (defence) and reading of the game, i.e. adjusting to the situation (response). Maybe I'm wrong though, their system is not entirely clear for me.

Positioning is realized pretty good in FM, for example, you shouldn't underestimate AI, it's very developed today.
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I'd like the posters on here to give it a bash at creating our own attribute rating list for past greats and average it out. The footage is there on most players to give it a decent bash and it would be fun to do.
 
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