Manager draft

Raees said:
TRV wins for me, talent in that side with sheer ball possession they'll be afforded is incredible.

Tough game.. Skizzo slightly edges it for me, both teams are solid.. but one has an exceptional attack.

I don't know enough about Balu's defenders here, so at the moment a draw.. Love Joga's signings though.

Easy win for Ed here, his team is one of my favourites to win the entire thing. Take the United bias out of this, I don't think the game would even be close.
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Yeah TRV was the big question, hard to argue against that Barcelona dream team with the addition of Lahm Robben and Ribery, especially with how unstoppable it was without them, and MJJ's side isn't too shabby in defense or midfield either..
Tough one indeed, but I think this might be a close one and not a TRV win eventually
 
Raees said:
TRV wins for me, talent in that side with sheer ball possession they'll be afforded is incredible.

Tough game.. Skizzo slightly edges it for me, both teams are solid.. but one has an exceptional attack.

I don't know enough about Balu's defenders here, so at the moment a draw.. Love Joga's signings though.

Easy win for Ed here, his team is one of my favourites to win the entire thing. Take the United bias out of this, I don't think the game would even be close.
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Will leave it for the thread but barring messi none of his attackers(ribery,henry,robben) were at their peak under pep.
 
MJJ said:
Will leave it for the thread but barring messi none of his attackers(ribery,henry,robben) were at their peak under pep.
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Why do you think Robben isn't playing at his peak level at the moment?

I think it's a bit unfair on Ribery as well, he was just as good as under Heynckes in the first 4 months of last season. Since he picked up the injury in the World Cup qualifying playoffs in November 2013 he never regained his fitness and struggled with back problems all the time, which clearly sucks and I understand if someone questions his form overall in comparison to the treble winning season. There are way way more questionable picks out there though.
 
VivaJanuzaj said:
Yeah TRV was the big question, hard to argue against that Barcelona dream team with the addition of Lahm Robben and Ribery, especially with how unstoppable it was without them, and MJJ's side isn't too shabby in defense or midfield either..
Tough one indeed, but I think this might be a close one and not a TRV win eventually
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It is not a one sided match by any means, it is a great match up.. I just don't like MJJ's midfield.. I can't see them dominating the game .. remember they're facing peak Messi, Iniesta and Xavi (frighteningly good) but then they have a world class defence and Baggio behind Ronaldo.

MJJ said:
Will leave it for the thread but barring messi none of his attackers(ribery,henry,robben) were at their peak under pep.
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Ah forgot the Ribery under Pep issue.. hmm makes it closer for sure as a peak Ribery I rate more than Henry in the left wing position.
 
harms said:
Judging by the discussions on that forum, positioning is somewhere between defence and response - a players who have high attributes are better in initial positioning (defence) and reading of the game, i.e. adjusting to the situation (response). Maybe I'm wrong though, their system is not entirely clear for me.

Positioning is realized pretty good in FM, for example, you shouldn't underestimate AI, it's very developed today.
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It's reflected well enough when only AI is involved - yes. But the whole point of a game like PES is that there will be at least one human player involved in any given match. In that context it's impossible to program something like "positional sense" in a meaningful way. I am controlling Messi - making him carry the ball towards the opponent's goal - and he comes up against Costacurta. How do you reflect Costacurta anticipating Messi's next move - when that move is effectively made by ME, not by "Messi"? I know AI is pretty advanced these days, but still - a football game isn't on par with a chess simulator, it's nowhere near that sophisticated.

"Response" is basically speed in this context - how fast a player is able to get on the ball when the ball is not controlled by anyone (AI or human). "Defense" is basically about a player's ability to dispossess another player of the ball - that is, from what I can gather, the main thing this stat "does". It's harder to move past a player with "defense" set at 90 than one with "defense" set at 83. It's not super sophisticated, this thing.
 
Balu said:
Why do you think Robben isn't playing at his peak level at the moment?

I think it's a bit unfair on Ribery as well, he was just as good as under Heynckes in the first 4 months of last season. Since he picked up the injury in the World Cup qualifying playoffs in November 2013 he never regained his fitness and struggled with back problems all the time, which clearly sucks and I understand if someone questions his form overall in comparison to the treble winning season. There are way way more questionable picks out there though.
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I think he was at his absolute peak under heynckes as that system suited him perfectly while pep's possession based system doesnt get the best out of him imo. Still a v.good player and one of the best out there but think his game was on another level under heynckes. Note: This is mostly based on CL games, Bundesliga highlights and dortmund games as I dont catch a lot of football outside united so might very well be wrong.
 
I'd wait to hear what Balu thinks about this, of course, but for me he is at least as good as he was in final Heynckess months, if not better. He fits perfectly in Pep's system, it isn't late Barcelona, Bayern is much more direct.
 
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Robben has been at his best for Bayern under van Gaal and Pep in my opinion, at least if you look consistent performances throughout full seasons. He was also great in the run-in of the treble winning season, but those few months definitely don't stand out in his Bayern career.

/edit: fecking Reus :mad:
 
Raees said:
It is not a one sided match by any means, it is a great match up.. I just don't like MJJ's midfield.. I can't see them dominating the game .. remember they're facing peak Messi, Iniesta and Xavi (frighteningly good) but then they have a world class defence and Baggio behind Ronaldo.
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I'm not sure on Ronaldo. He just played about 10 of games under Lippi iirc. Not ever anywhere near his peak with injuries, I think.

Edit: 3 goals in 8 appearances for Lippi's Inter.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
I'm not sure on Ronaldo. He just played about 10 of games under Lippi iirc. Not ever anywhere near his peak with injuries, I think.

Edit: 3 goals in 8 appearances for Lippi's Inter.
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Was touched on earlier, during the initial drafting.

I don't think one can claim that Ronaldo was underperforming - the problem was that he hardly featured due to injuries. It's the same old question of how the "peak" premise should be interpreted.

Three goals in eight ain't too shabby actually - well, it's borderline shabby for him, but not generally.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Was touched on earlier, during the initial drafting.

I don't think one can claim that Ronaldo was underperforming - the problem was that he hardly featured due to injuries. It's the same old question of how the "peak" premise should be interpreted.

Three goals in eight ain't too shabby actually - well, it's borderline shabby for him, but not generally.
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Just based on his scoring record. 1996-98 (Barca/Inter) and 2002-05 (Real) were his peaks. Lippi's reign coincides with a period of slump in his career.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
I'm not sure on Ronaldo. He just played about 10 of games under Lippi iirc. Not ever anywhere near his peak with injuries, I think.

Edit: 3 goals in 8 appearances for Lippi's Inter.
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97 world player of the year
98 serie a best player
98 world cup golden boot
99 copa America top score

was very much at his peaj.
 
On Ronaldo, did anyone question Michael Laudrup under Raees(?) who played under Del Bosque for 3 days in 1996?
 
You could argue that Ronaldo was still in his peak until he did his knee in a few months into the 99/00 season. Before that he struggled with injuries but always had brilliant performances inbetween.

But if you want some leeway regarding Ronaldo's peak under Lippi, you really shouldn't question Robben and Ribery under Pep. That's a bit silly.
 
Gio said:
On Ronaldo, did anyone question Michael Laudrup under Raees(?) who played under Del Bosque for 3 days in 1996?
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no one did in all honesty - was that because he had a great 94/95 season? either way me and annah would have suffered greatly if that was picked up on as a significant factor. I think not rating a player because he was injured ruins it a little bit, if he was injured and then played crap under Lippi then fair enough, but if he has played some games at his peak before the injury kicked in, then I'm going to base it on that.
 
Balu said:
You could argue that Ronaldo was still in his peak until he did his knee in a few months into the 99/00 season. Before that he struggled with injuries but always had brilliant performances inbetween.

But if you want some leeway regarding Ronaldo's peak under Lippi, you really shouldn't question Robben and Ribery under Pep. That's a bit silly.
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I wasn't going to, my point was that those guys weren't at their peak so its wrong to say the greatest club side has gotten even better with the inclusion of robbery, as 08 etoo was pretty good and don't think either of them are an improvement in that role.

plus ronaldo was pretty good whenever fit as the above awards show.
 
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MJJ said:
I wasn't going to, my point was that those guys weren't at their peak so its wrong to say the greatest club side has gotten even better with the inclusion of robbery, as 08 etoo was pretty good and don't think either of them are an improvement in that role.

plus ronaldo was pretty good whenever fit as the above awards show.
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Those awards tell as much about Ronaldo's form under Lippi as Ribery's UEFA player of the year award or Robben's world cup performances about their form under Pep. If you have watched the game today, then you know that Ribery's drop in form from November 2013 onwards was down to injuries, mostly constant pain in his back. And the idea that Robben 2014 wouldn't be a significant upgrade on Pedro 2011 seems a bit crazy to me. But I'll leave it at that, should be a discussion for the match thread.
 
Balu said:
Those awards tell as much about Ronaldo's form under Lippi as Ribery's UEFA player of the year award or Robben's world cup performances about their form under Pep. If you have watched the game today, then you know that Ribery's drop in form from November 2013 onwards was down to injuries, mostly constant pain in his back. And the idea that Robben 2014 wouldn't be a significant upgrade on Pedro 2011 seems a bit crazy to me. But I'll leave it at that, should be a discussion for the match thread.
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On Etoo, not on pedro. He is miles better than pedro, no arguments there.

But yeah agree on leaving it to the match thread although I wont be doing a lot of nitpicking about players peaks, will get a bit boring otherwise.
 
Gio said:
On Ronaldo, did anyone question Michael Laudrup under Raees(?) who played under Del Bosque for 3 days in 1996?
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Raees said:
no one did in all honesty - was that because he had a great 94/95 season? either way me and annah would have suffered greatly if that was picked up on as a significant factor. I think not rating a player because he was injured ruins it a little bit, if he was injured and then played crap under Lippi then fair enough, but if he has played some games at his peak before the injury kicked in, then I'm going to base it on that.
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I didn't want to use the player X played under this manager for only this period or that his form was crap under the manager cards when me and Raees faced each other. I think I only did that with Ronaldo not being at his Barca peak so as to reinforce my point about him being more of a final third player and not someone who could drive forward from the halfway line.

I could have highlighted Michel and Chendo not being at their peaks but didn't want to, as I knew Raees picked Del Bosque with the Spanish team in mind and it didn't seem right to nitpick the current players that he had in the first round. Oh and if the player only played a select few games for the manager, I basically judged the player's performance level on that particular season. Laudrup still was pretty good in his 95/96 season tbh.
 
MJJ said:
On Etoo, not on pedro. He is miles better than pedro, no arguments there.

But yeah agree on leaving it to the match thread although I wont be doing a lot of nitpicking about players peaks, will get a bit boring otherwise.
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He can't play Eto'o if he wants peak Messi though. At least in my opinion. Never thought playing Eto'o was an option. If Eto'o starts and Messi is on the right, then Robben is out of the equation anyway.
 
Balu said:
He can't play Eto'o if he wants peak Messi though. At least in my opinion. Never thought playing Eto'o was an option. If Eto'o starts and Messi is on the right, then Robben is out of the equation anyway.
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I would still have that, I dont think you gain enough by a peak messi to miss out on a peak etoo although that might just be my bias talking. I loved messi the wing forward/winger, the clinical false 9? Not so much.

Etoo,Henry and Messi are the perfect front line if you can somehow get the younger version of henry or someone similar. Ribery maybe?
 
MJJ said:
I would still have that, I dont think you gain enough by a peak messi to miss out on a peak etoo although that might just be my bias talking. I loved messi the wing forward/winger, the clinical false 9? Not so much.
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Etoo,Henry and Messi are the perfect front line if you can somehow get the younger version of henry or someone similar. Ribery maybe?
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peak Robben > peak Eto'o in my opinion. Ribery needs to see a lot of the ball himself, but you want to run the game through Messi. I'm not sure if he's as good a fit as a wide forward like Henry, who offers something different. I probably would have prefered Villa on the left, he was better in 10/11 than Henry in 08/09.

Villa Messi Robben
Iniesta Xavi
Busquets
Abidal Puyol Boateng Lahm
Neuer​

would be my prefered Guardiola XI. Boateng is individually so much better than Pique that it's easily worth to break up that partnership at the back, especially because you gain the connection with Lahm and Neuer instead.
 
Balu said:
peak Robben > peak Eto'o in my opinion. Ribery needs to see a lot of the ball himself, but you want to run the game through Messi. I'm not sure if he's as good a fit as a wide forward like Henry, who offers something different. I probably would have prefered Villa on the left, he was better in 10/11 than Henry in 08/09.

Villa Messi Robben
Iniesta Xavi
Busquets
Abidal Puyol Boateng Lahm
Neuer​

would be my prefered Guardiola XI. Boateng is individually so much better than Pique that it's easily worth to break up that partnership at the back, especially because you gain the connection with Lahm and Neuer instead.
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Wont peak robben be a tad too selfish for pep's barca? Can see the rest getting annoyed at him going for shots a lot. A younger villa would be perfect in that team come to think of it and I would probably have ibra. as a centre over messi(more flair) in there but that wont do a proper homage to pep's barca I suppose.
 
MJJ said:
Wont peak robben be a tad too selfish for pep's barca?
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I don't think he deserves that criticism anymore. He's not selfish at all, he's not one dimensional either. He's working hard in defense, basically played as a wingback a few times this season. He's dribbling down the line and passing back into the box more than he's doing his cut inside and shoot trick these days. And he's making a lot off the ball runs towards goal. He's much more relaxed since the treble, a perfect team player really. He's still driven, but he's pushing the team forward and not trying to carry the team on his own when things don't go well at Bayern. It also seems like his right foot became useful in the past 2 years :lol:.
 
Balu said:
I don't think he deserves that criticism anymore. He's not selfish at all, he's not one dimensional either. He's working hard in defense, basically played as a wingback a few times this season. He's dribbling down the line and passing back into the box more than he's doing his cut inside and shoot trick these days. And he's making a lot off the ball runs towards goal. He's much more relaxed since the treble, a perfect team player really. He's still driven, but he's pushing the team forward and not trying to carry the team on his own when things don't go well at Bayern. It also seems like his right foot became useful in the past 2 years :lol:.
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Ahh, I need to catch a lot more of bayern then. Robben as a team player sounds like a wonderful player to watch and a scary one to face.
 
Balu said:
I agree. Never understood the hype around Costacurta. He's of course a quality centerback and a great fit next to his partners from that legendary backline but individually nowhere near that all time top tier. He wouldn't stand out in the game today despite the lack of great centerbacks in my opinion.
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Phew, I'm surprised anyone agreed with me actually! I agree with the rest of you that there's no way he was in a tier above Ferdinand. I'd have Stam and Vidic over him too personally. He's still a very good defender though, and his value obviously rises exponentially when he's restored to that great Milan defence. Sorry for starting this Costacurta bashing EAP, but I did praise Panucci at least!
 
Balu said:
peak Robben > peak Eto'o in my opinion. Ribery needs to see a lot of the ball himself, but you want to run the game through Messi. I'm not sure if he's as good a fit as a wide forward like Henry, who offers something different. I probably would have prefered Villa on the left, he was better in 10/11 than Henry in 08/09.

Villa Messi Robben
Iniesta Xavi
Busquets
Abidal Puyol Boateng Lahm
Neuer​

would be my prefered Guardiola XI. Boateng is individually so much better than Pique that it's easily worth to break up that partnership at the back, especially because you gain the connection with Lahm and Neuer instead.
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Eto'o
Ribery Messi Robben
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In a 4-2-3-1 formation would be so deadly.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Hard to disagree with that.

The counter argument will have to be about overall balance - if there even is a counter argument to be offered. It's potentially a very interesting discussion, because it's not unreasonable to claim that Ronaldo's absolute peak for United coincided with him taking on a role which in more ways than one diminished the roles of others in the team, and in a certain sense made us more one-dimensional than we were prior to him becoming an absolute world beater.

I remember many a match from his most prolific season (goal wise) in which we looked rather horrible until he, yet again, bailed us out with a couple of goals.
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Aye, it is definitely very interesting. I think you're spot on that it required some sacrificing from other players.

That's not to say it wouldn't work though with a more offensively minded side - say a prime Giggsy for instance, as opposed to the hybrid CM/LM he was when Ronaldo played exceptionally advanced on the right. In that team Rooney/Tevez compensated by pulling wide left, so it was definitely a different side - as you say. But yeah, that's not to say it wouldn't work played differently, it would just be more attacking, almost a 4-2-4 depending on how advanced Giggs played.

We've had some really attacking line ups recently so I think it would be fine personally and I would have loved to have seen it. Nev and Irwin were excellent defensive fullbacks, Stam and Rio are obviously a brick wall and of course there is a prime Roy Keane there. It's the type of set up I love for Keane - You're basically giving him the biggest challenge on the park and asking him to rise to it, which he would.
 
Interesting feedback on the selection headache i now face ahead of Edgars game. Have a few options, also could bring Wayne into the equation. Great linkup that got the best out of Ronaldo and selfless team play. Would be a team well up for a battle. Would mean a big decision on who to miss out though.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
So, what's your opinion game master? Who do you predict to win in the coming rounds? What tactical battle are you interested in?
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Skizzo VS Harms is the match of the round I would say, two of my favorite teams and completely opposite styles of football. The rest of the matches feels like one of the managers has the better team and only tactical mistakes from themselves will keep them from winning. Some team has too many shiny names, so I expect a few upsets anyhow.

Not going to mention names though, I don't think that adds anything but a slightly sour aura to the draft!
 
Balu said:
peak Robben > peak Eto'o in my opinion. Ribery needs to see a lot of the ball himself, but you want to run the game through Messi. I'm not sure if he's as good a fit as a wide forward like Henry, who offers something different. I probably would have prefered Villa on the left, he was better in 10/11 than Henry in 08/09.

Villa Messi Robben
Iniesta Xavi
Busquets
Abidal Puyol Boateng Lahm
Neuer​

would be my prefered Guardiola XI. Boateng is individually so much better than Pique that it's easily worth to break up that partnership at the back, especially because you gain the connection with Lahm and Neuer instead.
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Messi is such a unique player, he wants to be the main playmaker of the team but at the same time the big superstar goalscorer as well and a reduced role isn't something he would accept. Considering the wingers in Barcelona primary role is to work hard defensively and run for through balls offensively, I would have Muller as my first choice if I had to use Messi in his peak. Then the question would be who would complement them the best and I would probably go for Pedro on the left considering Henry's dip in form when Messi/Ibra played as false-9s with him on the wing.

"Henry who had combined with Lionel Messi and Samuel Eto'o to score 100 goals between them that season.[43] The trio was also the most prolific trio in Spanish league history, scoring 72 goals and surpassing the 66 goals of Real Madrid's Ferenc Puskás,Alfredo Di Stéfano and Luis del Sol of the 1960–61 season"

I would have stuck with that 08-09 trio, but then thrown in Ribery in the mix. I would probably start with Ribery-Henry/Eto'o-Messi and then if I went a goal up I would sub Ribery out and keep Henry-Eto'o-Messi who were scary together when they got a little space to work on. I would start Eto'o probably so Henry could come on with fresh legs after the team went a goal up as he stated he was tired after all the pressing for Barcelona I believe.
 
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