The average total for the Serie A top scorer in the 80s was below 20 - probably even significantly below 20, I haven't done the math. So, yes - it's not comparable at all to anything C. Ronaldo did for either us or Real. Van Basten scored 25 in '92, which was a six goal improvement on Vialli who became top scorer the year before.
Manager draft - Fercutchon(Cutch) VS The Capillows(EAP)
- Thread starter Annahnomoss
- Start date
Still the focus seems to be on my defense.
Would appreciate some comments on my attack to his defense.
I promise not to argue till Cutch comes back
What focus has there been on your defence? If anything you haven't focused enough on it! Its possibly the greatest defensive unit in history.
On topic of defences, I wish Cutch had picked Vidic ahead of Stam. I think Vidic was marginally the better player (not popular) and I'd have liked to have seen him follow your lead with selecting a partnership that is even greater than the sum of their parts.
The thing that leaps out about your attacks is Savicevic vs Cantona. I just don't know how to assess this. Cantona is as good a player as Savicevic, I'm confident in saying that, but I view this as a Champions League-type match for obvious reasons, and if you factor that in Savicevic is by far the bigger matchwinner. That performance vs Barca is still one of the greatest things I've ever seen.
Can't say I'm too surprised with the score since its on a United forum...but if someone looks at the teams impartially...I can't really understand how they would think it would be close. EAP would rarely be troubled.
I'd have to disagree with Cutch listing 10 different ways his team could score, because against a team like this, most of those routes wouldn't result in a goal. I think its more likely to need a moment of magic from Ronaldo or Cantona than any long ball in behind, or Beckham cross to someone at the back post who just arrives apparently unmarked.
My .02 at least.
I'd have to disagree with Cutch listing 10 different ways his team could score, because against a team like this, most of those routes wouldn't result in a goal. I think its more likely to need a moment of magic from Ronaldo or Cantona than any long ball in behind, or Beckham cross to someone at the back post who just arrives apparently unmarked.
My .02 at least.
It is the case.
Not a single comment on how my attack fares against his defense. Nedved got mentioned because of need to defend against Beckham. Van Basten was not worth mentioning against Rio and Stam.
How he feels after finishing that keg.
That's a fair point, although if you're going down that road it goes both ways. Teams scored fewer not only because their opponents were more defensive, but because they themselves were more defensive. It seems like a bit of a cop-out to chalk off a team's most obvious weakness entirely to the strength of other teams.
In more general terms for the thread, I'd back Cutch's team for a few reasons.
Firstly, the Milan team EAP has built his team around were by no means a particularly attacking team, they (seemingly like EAP's team) were built to play ultra-defensively whilst relying on the individual brilliance of the attackers to nick a goal or two. If they don't, or if they concede first, I'm not sure where they turn to. Looking past the Milan core, none of his additions to that team are particularly prolific goalscorers so I'm not sure if that problem really gets solved.
Secondly, whilst its undoubtedly not as good as EAP's defensive unit, Cutch's defence is comfortably better than than the United backline who didn't concede a goal for 14 games straight in 2008-9. Rio is Rio. Stam was like Vidic with pace, Irwin was like a rock and Schmeichel is comfortably the best goalkeeper I've ever seen. It's a big ask for his front 4 to get anything out of that lot especially with Keane keeping numerical superiority and Redondo and Desailly having a brief to shield the defence rather than support the attack. The same applies at the other end obviously: we don't need telling about how good that defensive unit is, but the goals, assists and dynamism of Cutch's front-6 make his attack far more dangerous. Cantona, Beckham and Scholes are all equally capable of a pearler or an assist. RVN and Ronaldo are both simply lethal, I'd argue that purely as goalscorers they're very much in Van Basten territory during their best years under Fergie.
Ultimately it'd be close, I'd probably expect either 1-0 or a 2-1 to Cutch. I just think that his attack has a better chance of breaching EAP's defence more often then EAP's attack does his. I think the one thing we can say with some certainty is that if Cutch's team are ahead around the 60 minute mark it's game over: a potential Giggs, Robson, Scholes, Keane, Beckham midfield would easily kill off the game.
It is the case.
Nedved got mentioned because of need to defend against Beckham. Van Basten was not worth mentioning against Rio and Stam.
You have my vote man...it comes down roughly to Milan 1994 vintage vs Utd 1999ish, and as great as we were I just can't argue against Milan here, especially with your crafty Redondo and Nedved additions. I think you underrate Rio by the way, but I think the world underrates Vidic! I'd have Rio-Vidic over Rio-Stam without question.
That's the point though mate - if a typical attack is 7 vs 3 in that era versus 6 vs 4 in a different era, then its harder for a Van Basten era striker to score. And that was the case - I loved that era of football as I grew up with it but the game has became more attacking now. I agree about the relative goal threats of the teams too - Cutch's team carries the more obvious goal threat. The 4-0 againt Barca shows that the EAP/Capello team had the capacity to just explode on really high-calibre teams though. I can't really argue that we held back lack that domestically.
First, this is not the typical Milan team. The addition of Nedved adds a considerable threat to attack and Redondo is by no means a 'mere defensive midfielder'. I presume you have seen him dominating against a prime United midfield containing Keane/Scholes, no less. So, saying that this is a defensive unit who wins by parking the bus is a considerable disservice to the team. The famed Milan defence has been retained. Redondo is a big improvement in both defence and attack to Albertini, Add Nedved to the mix, it is a more improved team to that Milan team all over the pitch.
Again van Basten has proved himself for both club and national teams...and Dutch teams are anywhere but defensive. I think he will have a good time against that United defence. Watch Savicevic against Barca (which had Guadriola as full time DM, not a box-to-box Keane) and he took it to bits. In such a match winning performance, he is nearly without equal in this match up. And I disagree with RvN in van Basten category. Just not true. Ronaldo is there and potentially beyond that level....but as a unit that defence is incomparable. Barca with Romario could not score, so I'll take my chances with Ronaldo.
The United team here gets quite under-rated because we watched every match, and know the weaknesses, while only the strengths of the opponents are highlighted.
For example, Cantona was quite consistent in being the inspiration of the team in the league. Can the same be said of Savicevic.
The all-round attacking threat of the United team is as good as it can get in terms of the variety of ways in which the team can attack.
And the defence too is quite good in terms of personnel but it isn't shielded by a proper Defensive Midfield, but no Fergie team had a proper one.
If we were to consider this as a European match, then yes Fergie's team would probably lose over two legs, however if I view this as a league match United have always come off well against teams even with supposed better players/form. Fergie against peak Arsenal, Fergie with depleted United against Chelsea after losing 4-0 to Boro.
So yeah I voted for Cutch
For example, Cantona was quite consistent in being the inspiration of the team in the league. Can the same be said of Savicevic.
The all-round attacking threat of the United team is as good as it can get in terms of the variety of ways in which the team can attack.
And the defence too is quite good in terms of personnel but it isn't shielded by a proper Defensive Midfield, but no Fergie team had a proper one.
If we were to consider this as a European match, then yes Fergie's team would probably lose over two legs, however if I view this as a league match United have always come off well against teams even with supposed better players/form. Fergie against peak Arsenal, Fergie with depleted United against Chelsea after losing 4-0 to Boro.
So yeah I voted for Cutch
I was surprised that Stam > Vidic seems to be the consensus here, but I never rated Stam as highly as the Caf does.
Love it. It's actually not a bad point, not in the way you are making it but in that the SAF side was great for league formats. They scored goals, they leaked goals, but they would score more goals than you and over the course of the season that would happen often enough that they would prevail.Milan on the other hand simply couldn't be beaten, literally, I think they spent 58 league games unbeaten under Capello iirc. But that includes draws when the oppo went all cagey on them and somehow succeeded, which over the course of a league season can be costly (it wasn't for them, they won three leagues on the trot, and that being the toughest league in the World at the time, by a distance).
So yeah, there's a point there, but this clearly is a knockout competition, isn't it?
I don't get it myself either, to me Rio-Stam is compelling, but given the choice Rio-Vidic was comfortably the best in the world at their peak. I suspect it's those Torres goals and red card, that seems to have scarred fans and damaged their air of invincibility. One game.
So yeah, let's all slap Jip Jaap Stam in there and no one can argue he and Rio were once vulnerable and whenever they played like mugs it was surely because they didn't have each other...
It's a good thing @harms withdrew his vote. I didn't want to bring it up, but him being Trap would make it a very fishy vote at this stage.
I changed it about 5 times here
. In the end, I think that withdraw is the best option for me.I don't think that EAP is in any danger of losing here anyway, I think that he is winning quite comfortably, with all those manager votes - can't be bothered to count them properly though
i wouldn't trust Fergie in a knock-out against the very best of managers (not that he is not great by any stretch of imagination). however in a league format I would trust Fergie to come up trumps more often than any one else, whatever be his squad.
Milan on the other hand simply couldn't be beaten, literally, I think they spent 58 league games unbeaten under Capello iirc. But that includes draws when the oppo went all cagey on them and somehow succeeded, which over the course of a league season can be costly (it wasn't for them, they won three leagues on the trot, and that being the toughest league in the World at the time, by a distance).
So yeah, there's a point there, but this clearly is a knockout competition, isn't it?
as for Capello his last stint with Real and his with England kind of put a dampener on him, which is why he is managing Russia (as well as a wad of cash)
as for the teams, I don't think we can really pick faults. However Fergie's team will attack more and has more variety in the ways in which it can trouble the opposition. However the opposition is obviously class but these are defenders I saw perform week-in and week-out, and believe they can perform while the opposition all said and done is more of a highlights reel. So I voted for the team I love
And failing miserably there too, actually. Not only his fault though, but our NT is capable of more.
As someone said earlier I think, Stam is Vidic with pace. Vidic is a risky draft pick against absolute top drawer strikers when you consider what Torres used to do to him. Ferdinand and Stam never struggled against anyone and appear an extremely solid pairing.
Exactly while we forget that the likes of Redondo or Van Basten ever had a bad game.
I understand Cutch's decision to go with the 442 as a Ferguson side. The problem is that it's flawed, always was, no matter how entertaining to watch it has been. It's probably pointless to argue against it on a United forum, but the '99 treble winning side simply wasn't that great unless you overrate the whole winning mentality stuff and believe that luck doesn't exist in football at all. It's a great story how often the team managed to get last minute wins, but it also shows that the team didn't ever get close to dominate in the champions league. And it was exactly the kind of highly entertaining attacking team, that Cappello's Milan excelled against. There also is no coming back against Cappello's Milan at their peak, that backline simply didn't let you get back into the game once they scored and they will score.
The 433ish shaped '08 side is in my opinion easily the best United side Ferguson built. It also gets the best out of the best player on the pitch, which is questionable here, and is way better suited to face EAP's team. The romantic in me loves that Cutch went for this team instead, but in a one-off knockout match, there's sadly only one winner.
The 433ish shaped '08 side is in my opinion easily the best United side Ferguson built. It also gets the best out of the best player on the pitch, which is questionable here, and is way better suited to face EAP's team. The romantic in me loves that Cutch went for this team instead, but in a one-off knockout match, there's sadly only one winner.
Didn't Ferdinand get destroyed by Fat Ronaldo? Also remember Stam getting destroyed by Batistuta and Craig David. Van Basten is no craig, but is better than the other two in his 92 season.
I'd never say he was! Just in your tactics you only made mention to him and Desailly screening the defence and label them as playing in DM roles, which would limit his influence somewhat in my opinion. I think your team is fantastic, but I think it's certainly arguable that the front-6 they're facing is superior to anything that Milan team faced at domestic or European level and that despite the addition of Nedved and Redondo you're still a little goal-shy.
I think there's a bit of a double standard in your argument in the sense that you're citing your players' best moments (i.e - Savicevic vs. Barca) and implying that they were consistently playing at that top top level under Capello (which, as @sajeev says, is something Cutch doesn't really have the freedom to do seen as how as United fans most of us have seen the majority of the games played by his team). If we were able to do the same with United players we could talk about Keane (alongside Nicky Butt) dominating a Conte, Deschamps, Davids, Zidane midfield or the countless times Ronaldo did something that no defence could account for (think Porto 2009).
Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way doubting the qualities of Savicevic or any other member of your team (Nedved is one of my all-time favourite non-United players as it happens) but I think it's inarguable that in terms of consistently delivering goals your offensive players are not on the same level as Cantona, Ronaldo, Beckham, Scholes. Ultimately your only prolific player remains Van Basten, who you've already admitted is probably just about shaded out by Ronaldo.
@Balu and @antohan - Vidic was incredible, and it'd be understandable for Cutch to pick Vidic to complete the Rio/Vidic partnership, but Stam shades him. He was every bit as tough as Vidic but far less likely to foul (never got sent off for United) and incredibly quick. Vidic's weaknesses were covered perfectly by Ferdinand, and vice-versa, but in Stam you had a defender who had no weaknesses that needed covering. He basically never got caught out, whether on the floor or in the air, despite his CB partners never being anywhere near the quality of Rio.
I agree on the point that Savicevic gets a bit overrated if we take the peak under the manager thing into account by the way. The 4-0 final performance was more or less a one off. He never came close to replicate the form he showed at Red Star throughout a season.
I recently stumbled across this article about him which captures his problems at Milan very well:
http://ademirtozizinho.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/dejan-savicevic-and-definition-of.html
I recently stumbled across this article about him which captures his problems at Milan very well:
http://ademirtozizinho.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/dejan-savicevic-and-definition-of.html
I don't think anyone is focusing on bad games here. If we were I could tell you how the first time I watched United live Keano got sent off, Schmeichel had a mare and we lost 6-3 away to Southampton. It was an odd game though.
I don't think there's a single player on the pitch that anyone expects not to perform because we are going by peak and more often than not they did, particularly in the big games. With hindsight, every time I say "shits on" seems to result in a shitstorm, I clearly use the term more lightly than others
Point was Beckham is facing the very best flank he could possibly face, with graft from the wideman who will trouble him from deep and the best LB in the draft ahead. Considering the extent of the reliance on him, I would worry about that. He would still deliver awesome set pieces and there's feck all that the oppo can do about that bar not conceding fouls in dangerous areas, which you would expect the best backline in history to be pretty adept at. Corners though... that's actually where I see your goal coming from eventually.
Sums it up, pretty much.
The fact is that United under Fergie never really did the "domination" thing. We either played openly and outdanced the opponent - or, in later years (not least during Carlos Q's spell as Fergie's right hand man), we played cynically when we had to against strong sides. None of those approaches would work against this Milan'esque set-up.
I love that classic Fergie style openness of play, by the way. You let the opponent play, deceptively naively - and then you go for the throat every chance you get. It's my favourite kind of football, all things said and done. But tactically it won't work against a side which is as strong, cagey and ruthless as the Milan side which is the model here.
It's certainly a difficult one. Thing is, huge and scary as Stam looked, I don't think he was actually as imposing as Vidic. I always felt he had that little bit extra edge and the knife between his teeth (rioplatense expression, never mind). It's marginal, but it's marginal things that you will be looking for in such a comparison. Same as with Becks-Giggs, they also had a great knack for either one of them having a monstruous game precisely when it was needed.
The problem for him was the quota. So long as van Basten-Gullit-Rijkaard where around there was no place for him. Rijkaard was replaced with Desailly, van Basten with Papin to a certain extent and it was Gullit's exit that would have afforded him a place. But he was no Gullit, completely different player TBH and in a rather cagey Capello side the graft Gullit had provided was missing when playing Savicevic, so he could only be used sparingly, almost as a luxury player when they could afford to.
I wouldn't say that final was a one off performance, but it is fair to say he didn't play regularly enough to consistently put in such performances, which is a different issue altogether, particularly when here you have Nedved contributing that extra bit of graft as well as significantly upgrading Lentini.
I suppose it's an opinions game at the end of the day, personally I'd far rather go up against Vidic than Stam. Stam was an absolute monster, I remember in one United - Arsenal game (maybe 2001-ish) Vieira went in late on Keane and Keane had a kick at him, they squared up and Stam came barrelling over and he dwarfed every other player there. In the end it took the referee, 3-4 United players and about 5 Arsenal players to drag him away. I don't think Vidic ever had quite that level of fear factor.
You can't overstate his pace either. Even at Milan when he was 32 they occasionally had him playing as a right back and had it in him to knock a ball past a player and beat them to it. The partnership he could have had with Rio if he stayed would have been immense.
Yeah, I remember that
It's not fear factor I'm alluding to, christ, he WAS fearsome! It's more of an edge in alertness, in caring, in commitment, in leadership and ownership over the final result. Mind, maybe it's just me and more a function of Stam having played only a few years with us and parading around different clubs, while Vidic came here, had a mare, persevered, and spent the bulk of his career and peak with us.That also counts for something though, at least in my book. Maybe it's the same reason I'm adamant about Giggs, we've seen the ins and outs, the Sell Giggs brigade on here was peaking just around the time he came on and scored a brace in that game against Juve mentioned earlier. He got knocked down and kept coming back for more, while Ronaldo just pissed off to Real the moment he finally got any good, frankly.
Yeah, I remember that
That also counts for something though, at least in my book. Maybe it's the same reason I'm adamant about Giggs, we've seen the ins and outs, the Sell Giggs brigade on here was peaking just around the time he came on and scored a brace in that game against Juve mentioned earlier. He got knocked down and kept coming back for more, while Ronaldo just pissed off to Real the moment he finally got any good, frankly.
That's true. Whilst I see Stam as a better player, Vidic probably understood 'the cause' more and became a part of the club to a greater extent. It's a shame that we'll never know whether Stam could've done the same had he not had that falling out with Fergie.
Damn right.
As for Stam versus Vidic I'd say it's too close to call, really. Could pick either - and given that, I'd probably pick Vidic precisely for the reason you state. Plus, you get the added bonus of the "proven" factor (Rio + Vidic).
Getting into specifics I'd say that Vidic was probably slightly better tactically, slightly better technically (on the ball, I mean) and I'd say he was better in the air (Stam was a bit clumsy - hell of a man in a duel, obviously, but not an excellent header of the ball; he didn't score much either). Stam, however, was stronger physically and he was definitely faster. The number of players who could match Stam physically was slender indeed.
Yeah, I remember that
I'm pleasantly surprised that some people agree with me about Vidic and Stam. That's a great way to phrase it Anto.
Agree with this. Stam wasn't as brilliant for Holland, but him and Ferdinand together would be
Vidic gets a lot of stick for those Torres matches but that just shows how great he was. We expected him to handle every attacker he faced in a brilliant manner and if they scored it was usually a case of a damn good play from the opponents rather than any inabilities, weaknesses or errors from Rio/Vidic.
Vidic for me was as good of a stopper as Rio was as a ball playing CB, maybe even a step above considering the competition being so incredible for the ball playing ones. We often played quite a high line under SAF with Vida/Rio at the back and that was the biggest "weakness" in Vidic game, still he did it superbly and except against Torres he was never really troubled due to it.
So for me it goes down to who you are facing, and what type of tactic you want to play. Stam edges it in a high line which suited him perfectly as he was deceptively rapid on longer distances. Vidic had that ability to absolutely dominate the box though in a manner I've rarely seen apart from him. I think that Rio gets a lot of credit which actually deserves to be put on Vidic.
Rio was sublime in everything, but Vidic allowed Rio to play on the absolute edge - knowing whenever Rio missed an interception, or got a bit too composed and complex with a play - Vidic was there instantly and turned the heat back on. Don't know how many matches I saw Rio get overly composed and relaxed, and you just knew he had a tiny mistake in him - and then after the mistake had happened Rio was back on his flawless self.
I am not sure I would have any other defender next to Rio those days than Vidic.
Vidic for me was as good of a stopper as Rio was as a ball playing CB, maybe even a step above considering the competition being so incredible for the ball playing ones. We often played quite a high line under SAF with Vida/Rio at the back and that was the biggest "weakness" in Vidic game, still he did it superbly and except against Torres he was never really troubled due to it.
So for me it goes down to who you are facing, and what type of tactic you want to play. Stam edges it in a high line which suited him perfectly as he was deceptively rapid on longer distances. Vidic had that ability to absolutely dominate the box though in a manner I've rarely seen apart from him. I think that Rio gets a lot of credit which actually deserves to be put on Vidic.
Rio was sublime in everything, but Vidic allowed Rio to play on the absolute edge - knowing whenever Rio missed an interception, or got a bit too composed and complex with a play - Vidic was there instantly and turned the heat back on. Don't know how many matches I saw Rio get overly composed and relaxed, and you just knew he had a tiny mistake in him - and then after the mistake had happened Rio was back on his flawless self.
I am not sure I would have any other defender next to Rio those days than Vidic.
It could be slipping away here but can one of these matchwinners provide late drama again
Cantona
Beckham
Ronaldo
Cantona
Beckham
Ronaldo
I have to say, that picture at the start is brilliant. When I opened the thread I remember thinking I would be extremely annoyed at the team ordering if I were EAP, I'm not even sure everyone bothered check what his team looked like
Look at this:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/stam-v-vidic.206351/page-7
How opinions change, eh Fercutchon!
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/stam-v-vidic.206351/page-7
How opinions change, eh Fercutchon!Look at this:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/stam-v-vidic.206351/page-7
Message board reading comprehension 101: read the post the point relates to. GB picks Stam, arguing he was complete and that Vidic lacked in a few areas, Cutch says without a doubt. I think he means he agrees there
In fact, he could have picked Vidic if he felt he was better. We can agree or disagree, but he clearly made a choice based on his preference, which is fair enough.