Manager draft - Fercutchon(Cutch) VS The Capillows(EAP)

[Cutch]

Here we go again, the X-men running around like headless chicken discussions commence. This is awesome, looks like a script of all drafts past. First the 11 lines of X>Y, now the X takes Y, A takes B, and so on...

I'm trying not to go down that route at all, but if its made out that Ronaldo is being triple teamed then i have to point out how that will help me in other areas

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

You've 3 men assigned to Ronaldo? All the more space for Eric and Ruud, and Scholes runs from deep

Wut? They are part of my defence. So yes, they will defend against Ronaldo too. Did I ever mention I have all 3 man-marking Ronaldo?

Point being it's far difficult for Ronaldo/RvN to get my defence than Nedved/Savicevic at the other end.

 

[Cutch]

Fercutchon was a great word play. If nobody else will compliment it I will just have to do it myself.

Its shocking

 

[diarm]

What a blast from the past! Why do people persist with resuscitating this player comparison nonsense?

Wasn't aware I was persisting or resuscitating. Will attempt to be more aware of historic taboos when posting on these game threads in future.

 

[antohan]

Come on now, don't be silly.

Nedved under Capello from 32-34yo was often injured and from memory had nothing close to Beckhams impact in 99 treble for example.

32 year-old Nedved was the outstanding player at Euro 2004, by a distance. He also averaged 40 games a season under Capello, so much for him being apparently old and creaking.

 

[Cutch]

Wut? They are part of my defence. So yes, they will defend against Ronaldo too. Did I ever mention I have all 3 man-marking Ronaldo?

Point being it's far difficult for Ronaldo/RvN to get my defence than Nedved/Savicevic at the other end.

I don't see Desailly being in the equation really, surely he's got enough on his plate. I don't think its hard for my players to get at your defence at all, for the reasons already stated.
- Scholes/Beckhams (Keane to a slightly lesser extent) passing range making quick transition between defense/offense
- Eric dropping deep and looking to slide in the likes of Ronaldo
- Red Nev and Beckham teaming up as they always did on the right
- Individual brilliance of Ronaldo
- Movement of Ruud
- Long shots of Beckham/Scholes
- Runs into the box from deep from Scholes
- Denis/Ronaldo freekick
- Ronaldo/Stam header from corner

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Come on now, don't be silly.

Nedved under Capello from 32-34yo was often injured and from memory had nothing close to Beckhams impact in 99 treble for example.

Depends what you're looking for, I guess. Injuries are a bit neither here nor there in this context, though - as long as he wasn't injured all the time (and he wasn't). Of course Nedved declined, like all players do, but he did so slowly - in fact, I'd claim that he remained at a very high level until he retired (probably helped by him retiring from international football several seasons before he quit altogether).

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Some of the issues/difficulties around fitting in Ronaldo are getting overplayed in my opinion. I do agree and take @Chesterlestreet 's point on Ronaldo being the centre of United's attack when his form peaked, but still I wouldn't make too much of that. It was much less of a trait of Ronaldo's than it is now for Madrid for instance, even in that 08 season he wasn't the pure goalscorer he is now. Then there's 06/07 in which Ronaldo properly became world class and United played their best football for years - in that year I don't think he would have been too difficult to fit in really. He was full of excellent wing play, pace and trickery and wasn't someone who needed others to play for him IMO. That's how I remember it anyway.

But aye, he was incredible. I prefer United Ronaldo to the Madrid version.

Agreed, except possibly for the last sentence.

Ronaldo's not the issue for me here. And as much as there are nice connections between Cantona and the other two attackers, I have bigger question marks over Eric's influence at this level given his lack of track record in cutting the mustard in Europe.

Sadly, I tend to agree again. He did have his moments in Europe but he didn't consistently produce his best form. Of course that could be a reflection of a naivety in that Utd team's approach to CL football rather than just Cantona going missing. The rest of Cutch's team can't be accused of that, and the question for me is how much I can give Cantona the benefit of the doubt.

 

[antohan]

Wasn't aware I was persisting or resuscitating. Will attempt to be more aware of historic taboos when posting on these game threads in future.

No worries mate . As I said, great blast from the past . We used to have entire threads of people listing the 11 and changing the <> and arguing over each and every one of them... It's utterly pointless as, say, van Basten isn't facing van Nistelrooy, or is he?

 

[Cutch]

32 year-old Nedved was the outstanding player at Euro 2004, by a distance. He also averaged 40 games a season under Capello, so much for him being apparently old and creaking.

Maybe i'm associating him too literally with his manager then, as i didnt see anything really in them 2 club seasons that would have him shitting on David Beckham

 

[Gio]

Its shocking

I'd have gone for

ComingUpToCapello'sHouse

But it's no Gio Trapattoni.

 

[Cutch]

Just seen a link to this goal btw, thought it was worth posting. I'd settle for one like this in this game.

 

[antohan]

Maybe i'm associating him too literally with his manager then, as i didnt see anything really in them 2 club seasons that would have him shitting on David Beckham

Well, it's not just me, Chester also points out the same issue: Nedved is the last man you wanted on that side, exactly the sort you would want harassing Beckham. And that's what he does without the ball...

 

[Gio]

Sadly, I tend to agree again. He did have his moments in Europe but he didn't consistently produce his best form. Of course that could be a reflection of a naivety in that Utd team's approach to CL football rather than just Cantona going missing. The rest of Cutch's team can't be accused of that, and the question for me is how much I can give Cantona the benefit of the doubt.

Yeah I'm torn between where Cantona struggled against less awe-inspiring opponents than Desailly and Redondo, against the strengthened supporting cast he'd have here and the potential for slipping in Ronaldo in the gap between Panucci and Costacurta.

 

[antohan]

Just seen a link to this goal btw, thought it was worth posting. I'd settle for one like this in this game.

Beautiful but you aren't playing Panathinaikos here.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Out of interest, how do people rate Redondo (1 season of evidence) and Desailly as a partnership compared to the all conquering complementary pairing of Keane-Scholes?

It is virtually impossible to talk bad about that United team, so many personal favorites.

1) No one seems to be giving consideration on how his defence will perform against my attack. Nedved, van Basten, Savicevic were all at Ballon d'Or winning form, yet they do not seem to be making any difference here
* Keane is busy covering for CR and there is no way Rio/Stam can contain Savicevic/van Basten.
* Nedved against Neville also seems to gain me no traction.

2) Mine is one of the best proven defensive line-up's in the world and Redondo for Albertini just makes it better. Ronaldo is a matchwinner and cannot be 'stopped', but to see him just brush over this kind of defence (esp in his United form) is a bit unreasonable. He will get some joy, but I will get more.

3) Even forgetting Berg, Redondo has shown his class against Keane/Scholes midfield. Despite taking away Giggs workrate, it still seems I have not gained any advantage in the middle. With Redondo, Nedved and Donadoni there, I would certainly control the middle.

I would definitely put this contest 3-1 in my favour.

What season did Redondo play under Capello and how was his form (too lazy to look it up right now)? On paper its a colossal midfield, especially with Redondo's excellent track record against the Utd midfield as EAP pointed out. I wouldn't give either side a landslide advantage in midfield. That Utd midfield at their best were too good to be completely shut out of a match, but there's no way Redondo and Desailly are getting steamrollere (slightly contingent on the Redondo question I asked).

I don't agree that Keane isn't going to protect his centre backs at all, but I'd definitely concede that as a midfield they were never a fortress in terms of protecting their defence. EAP's attackers will see plenty of the ball and I'm leaning towards him winning 2-1.

 

[diarm]

No worries mate . As I said, great blast from the past . We used to have entire threads of people listing the 11 and changing the <> and arguing over each and every one of them... It's utterly pointless as, say, van Basten isn't facing van Nistelrooy, or is he?

It's true, it makes no sense really. I just couldn't pick between the two sides!

 

[Chesterlestreet]

What season did Redondo play under Capello and how was his form (too lazy to look it up right now)? On paper its a colossal midfield, especially with Redondo's excellent track record against the Utd midfield as EAP pointed out. I wouldn't give either side a landslide advantage in midfield. That Utd midfield at their best were too good to be completely shut out of a match, but there's no way Redondo and Desailly are getting steamrollere (slightly contingent on the Redondo question I asked).

I don't agree that Keane isn't going to protect his centre backs at all, but I'd definitely concede that as a midfield they were never a fortress in terms of protecting their defence. EAP's attackers will see plenty of the ball and I'm leaning towards him winning 2-1.

1996-97. Consensus would probably be that he was very good once Capello figured out how to use him.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Wasn't aware I was persisting or resuscitating. Will attempt to be more aware of historic taboos when posting on these game threads in future.

I still do the "Schmeichel>Casillas" type thing, as overall quality of player is still an important factor for me, I just rarely do it out publically any more. Don't tell antohan .

 

[Annahnomoss]

Its shocking

Shockingly beautiful and creative maybe.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

What season did Redondo play under Capello and how was his form (too lazy to look it up right now)? On paper its a colossal midfield, especially with Redondo's excellent track record against the Utd midfield as EAP pointed out. I wouldn't give either side a landslide advantage in midfield. That Utd midfield at their best were too good to be completely shut out of a match, but there's no way Redondo and Desailly are getting steamrollere (slightly contingent on the Redondo question I asked).

I don't agree that Keane isn't going to protect his centre backs at all, but I'd definitely concede that as a midfield they were never a fortress in terms of protecting their defence. EAP's attackers will see plenty of the ball and I'm leaning towards him winning 2-1.

I put it 3-1 in earlier post

Redondo played for Capello in 1996-97 season. His achievements in that season are:

Real Madrid player of the year
La Liga winner
Supercopa de España winner

I would say it was a very successful season for him. Capello was so impressed that he offered to take Redondo when he left Real.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Only four neutral managers have voted as far as I can tell - two on each side, so no advantages there.

Low turnout from the managers in the last few matches - or am I imagining things?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Come on now, don't be silly.

Nedved under Capello from 32-34yo was often injured and from memory had nothing close to Beckhams impact in 99 treble for example.

wut again?

Pavel Nedved under Capello (Juventus 2004-06) though I've included 2003 also below just for emphasis.

Scudetto winner: 2004–05, 2005–06 (stripped due to Calciopoli)
- UEFA Club Best Midfielder of ther Year: 2002–03
- Serie A Footballer of the Year: 2003
- World Soccer Awards Player of the Year: 2003
- Ballon d'Or: 2003

- Golden Ball (Czech Republic): 2004
- Czech Footballer of the Year: 2004
- UEFA Team of the Year: 2003, 2004, 2005
- UEFA European Championship Team of the Tournament: 2004
- Golden Foot: 2004

 

[antohan]

What season did Redondo play under Capello and how was his form (too lazy to look it up right now)? On paper its a colossal midfield, especially with Redondo's excellent track record against the Utd midfield as EAP pointed out. I wouldn't give either side a landslide advantage in midfield. That Utd midfield at their best were too good to be completely shut out of a match, but there's no way Redondo and Desailly are getting steamrollere (slightly contingent on the Redondo question I asked).

I don't agree that Keane isn't going to protect his centre backs at all, but I'd definitely concede that as a midfield they were never a fortress in terms of protecting their defence. EAP's attackers will see plenty of the ball and I'm leaning towards him winning 2-1.

1996-97: Deep-sitting DM acting as DLP, very much the sort of defensively robust setup you want with Nedved-Savicevic-Donadoni in front of him, who needs him going box-to-box? THAT game he had more freedom, which was more eye-catching, but what you need him doing here is very much what he did for Capello.

In our minds as United fans it's 2000 we remember him for, but the entire year after that 1996-97 season was a soap opera revolving around Passarella wanting him and Batiistuta to get a haircut. Batistuta did, Redondo didn't, and it probably made all the difference for them.

 

[Cutch]

Well, it's not just me, Chester also points out the same issue: Nedved is the last man you wanted on that side, exactly the sort you would want harassing Beckham. And that's what he does without the ball...

He didnt do much to stop Beckham in 02-03 when we did the double over them in the Champions League groups, including a 3-0 battering on their own patch

 

[antohan]

I still do the "Schmeichel>Casillas" type thing, as overall quality of player is still an important factor for me, I just rarely do it out publically any more. Don't tell antohan .

 

[Cutch]

wut again?

Pavel Nedved under Capello (Juventus 2004-06) though I've included 2003 also below just for emphasis.

Scudetto winner: 2004–05, 2005–06 (stripped due to Calciopoli)
- UEFA Club Best Midfielder of ther Year: 2002–03
- Serie A Footballer of the Year: 2003
- World Soccer Awards Player of the Year: 2003
- Ballon d'Or: 2003

- Golden Ball (Czech Republic): 2004
- Czech Footballer of the Year: 2004
- UEFA Team of the Year: 2003, 2004, 2005
- UEFA European Championship Team of the Tournament: 2004
- Golden Foot: 2004

David Beckham under SAF

• Premier League (6): 1995–96, 1996–97, 1998–99, 1999–2000, 2000–01, 2002–03
• FA Cup (2): 1995–96, 1998–99
• FA Community Shield (4): 1993, 1994, 1996, 1997
• FA Youth Cup (1): 1991–92
• UEFA Champions League (1): 1998–99
• Intercontinental Cup (1): 1999

• 1999 Ballon d'Or: Silver Award
• UEFA Club Footballer of the Year (1): 1998–99
• UEFA Club Midfielder of the Year (1): 1998–99
• UEFA Team of the Year: 2001, 2003

On peak form under their respective manager then no-one shits on anyone.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I don't see Desailly being in the equation really, surely he's got enough on his plate. I don't think its hard for my players to get at your defence at all, for the reasons already stated.
- Long shots of Beckham/Scholes
- Denis/Ronaldo freekick
- Ronaldo/Stam header from corner

I'm sorry, but this is lot of words in saying nothing.

I certainly struggle to see how Neville/Beckham will be better than Maldini/Nedved. Nedved will emerge a clear winner in these battles. He will also restrict Beckham's contribution to a great extent.

- Scholes/Beckhams (Keane to a slightly lesser extent) passing range making quick transition between defense/offense.
- Red Nev and Beckham teaming up as they always did on the right.

Just to remind I have 2 dedicated brilliant DM's in Desailly/Redondo whereas you have a backtracking Keane. I'm better suited to handle your attack, then you are for mine.

- Eric dropping deep and looking to slide in the likes of Ronaldo
- Individual brilliance of Ronaldo
- Movement of Ruud
- Runs into the box from deep from Scholes

Long balls and free kicks are equal to either side.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Went for Cutch here. EAP has a great team but the inclusion of Ronaldo for me improves an already sensational team. I can see the trio of Scholes-Keane-Beckham being slightly more conservative and focus more being the supply line than taking EAPs brilliant defense head on, which would be the way to go for me.

It is going to be hard to break down his defense but Cutch has 3 fantastic goal scoring forwards as well.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

David Beckham under SAF

• Premier League (6): 1995–96, 1996–97, 1998–99, 1999–2000, 2000–01, 2002–03
• FA Cup (2): 1995–96, 1998–99
• FA Community Shield (4): 1993, 1994, 1996, 1997
• FA Youth Cup (1): 1991–92
• UEFA Champions League (1): 1998–99
• Intercontinental Cup (1): 1999

• 1999 Ballon d'Or: Silver Award
• UEFA Club Footballer of the Year (1): 1998–99
• UEFA Club Midfielder of the Year (1): 1998–99
• UEFA Team of the Year: 2001, 2003

On peak form under their respective manager then no-one shits on anyone.

I never claimed Beckham was not in his prime. Recall you were the one who dug into Nedved. All I pointed out was just because Maldini is not taken one-to-one, Becks is not going to have a free reign. Nedved will hound him and that is the truth. Comparing both their peaks, I would still bet on Nedved ofc

 

[Gio]

He didnt do much to stop Beckham in 02-03 when we did the double over them in the Champions League groups, including a 3-0 battering on their own patch

Fair point, although that 3-0 was most flattering to United. Pretty sure I was arguing on the Caf about that game at the time.

 

[antohan]

He didnt do much to stop Beckham in 02-03 when we did the double over them in the Champions League groups, including a 3-0 battering on their own patch

Beckham was anonymous in that battering, it was Giggs scoring a brace and a shit goal after terrible defending from Tudor. In fact, it's PRECISELY the sort of game that exemplifies why Giggs should be on the pitch. Whenever Becks was nullified, Giggs took over. That was the beauty of that midfield, when I say it was balanced it's not just that Giggs tracked back while Ronaldo doesn't, they had a habit of working games betting on those twin threats: Giggs' pace and dribbling or Beckham's delivery, the chances that any one team would be setup to deal with both was slim and Scholes-Keane played accordingly.

In the meantime, Juve made the final anyway, with Nedved (who was great against us) helping them overcome Barca, then our beaters Real, but unfortunately couldn't play in what must have been the most boring final ever. He got the Ballon d'Or that year, sure it wasn't because Beckham owned him in any way shape or form when we played Juve.

 

[Cutch]

So annoying that i cant find a better version of this video. Utd beating Juventus at home in 02, with beckham skinning Nedved and lobbing a delightful ball over the top for that man Ruud.

Thats the sort of thing i'd be looking for.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Fair point, although that 3-0 was most flattering to United. Pretty sure I was arguing on the Caf about that game at the time.

That was the one where Giggs scored twice in the first half, right?

Don't recall either Beckham or Nedved shining on the night - but, yeah, it's a fair point. However, Nedved was very good against us at Old Trafford (where Juve sported a B team of sorts), probably their man of the match. So, not so fair a point with regards to that match.

EDIT Just found a match report - Nedved praised for being "lively", causing trouble down the wing and nearly equalizing at the end.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

It is going to be hard to break down his defense but Cutch has 3 fantastic goal scoring forwards as well.

That Milan defence won a Serie A conceding just 15 goals all season against attackers as good as RvN/Cantona. They came up trumps against Cryuff's Barca having Romario in that side. Even in 1999 the defence conceded 37 goals, more than twice. And they are facing van Basten. No offence to RvN, but van Basten is better!

Yes, Ronaldo will get the team score, but I will score more.

 

[antohan]

So annoying that i cant find a better version of this video. Utd beating Juventus at home in 02, with beckham skinning Nedved and lobbing a delightful ball over the top for that man Ruud.

Thats what i'm talkin about.

Here you go, full highlights including Nedved hitting the post and scoring in the same game. That was a better game for Becks though, granted, but associating the 3-0 with him at all is misplaced.

 

[Cutch]

Here you go, full highlights including Nedved hitting the post and scoring in the same game. That was a better game for Becks though, granted, but associating the 3-0 with him at all is misplaced.

Cheers, had watched highlights of the away game and had thought he looked prominent.

I agree that Nedved is a tough opponent and its a tricky side to gain control of, but the plan won't be too hold on to it long. Quick switch to the far side when its on, a ball over the top, playing Neville in on the overlap or moving it infield to Scholes or Eric to make the next move.

 

[antohan]

That Milan defence won a Serie A conceding just 15 goals all season against attackers as good as RvN/Cantona. They came up trumps against Cryuff's Barca having Romario in that side. Even in 1999 the defence conceded 37 goals, more than twice. And they are facing van Basten. No offence to RvN, but van Basten is better!

Yes, Ronaldo will get the team score, but I will score more.

Why Ronaldo? I think he will score one but I don't get all the hoo-hah, that team was far more likely to score through a set piece or Ruud than it would via Ronaldo, particularly with the defensive setup they are facing.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Why Ronaldo? I think he will score one but I don't get all the hoo-hah, that team was far more likely to score through a set piece or Ruud than it would via Ronaldo, particularly with the defensive setup they are facing.

Agree.

The theme I'm trying to drive in here repeatedly is that it's is much easier for me to score against them them they have against me. I'm sure they will get on the sheet, but I'll just have more.

 

[Joga Bonito]

That Milan defence won a Serie A conceding just 15 goals all season against attackers as good as RvN/Cantona. They came up trumps against Cryuff's Barca having Romario in that side. Even in 1999 the defence conceded 37 goals, more than twice. And they are facing van Basten. No offence to RvN, but van Basten is better!

Yes, Ronaldo will get the team score, but I will score more.

I think the lack of defensive fortitude and solidity had something to do with the midfield set up where all 4 of them contributed both offensively and defensively without a holding midfielder or genuine tactical discipline. Playing 2 strikers didn't help in this regard as well. Make no mistake about it though, it paved way for some really entertainingly attacking football.

With the inclusion of Ronaldo it becomes a bit less fluid as a system but it allows the other 3 midfielders to be slightly more conservative and disciplined. That wasn't the Fergie way but it would be the best way to go in such a tight encounter against a great team.

You lose Giggs's pace, workrate and width but Ronaldo more than makes up for it with his individualism and greater attacking impetus. The other 3 midfielders also have the engines to make up for Giggs's absence and Ronaldo's lack of workrate. I can see that forward trio thriving on a workaholic midfield trio of sorts with great creativity.

Beckham's pinpoint early crosses to the head of the forwards, Scholes's long range passes into the feet of the forwards and Keane's underrated and quick passing plus a slightly more defensive role helping to shore up United's defense better.