I honestly don't see it, i think theres far more goals spread across my team and so many different ways of scoring that i've already highlighted. I'm envisaging any goals you score being more likely to come from individual errors or moments of magic.
Manager draft - Fercutchon(Cutch) VS The Capillows(EAP)
- Thread starter Annahnomoss
- Start date
I honestly don't see it, i think theres far more goals spread across my team and so many different ways of scoring that i've already highlighted. I'm envisaging any goals you score being more likely to come from individual errors or moments of magic.
This where I tend to have a different view. Other midfielders working conservatively to let Ronaldo attack more was a 2008 version of the team. A more open everyone contributes version was the one in which the rest of the midfield peaked in. The difference in playing styles is quite distinct. I don't think RvN would play a supporting role to Ronaldo as Rooney did. Scholes in his peak did not a 'conservative' role. That's why I said, the team is more of a hybrid version of both and not the dominant version of either.
Can't really argue with any of that and its the way i hope it plays out too.
Fergie played Veron in those matches against Juve, I think. Not that it matters here, it just struck me now.
I knew i missed a trick with my 13th pick
- Nedved getting past Neville.
- Donadoni having a relatively easy time due to CR not tracking back.
Straight one-to one with your defence. Add in the brilliance of Savicevic and van Basten, it is a far more direct route to goals than you have. Even with a tracking back Keane, it is favours me.
He did, that was the fabled "Verón in Europe", five man midfield and all that.
The biggest difference defensively from that '99 team is the inclusion of a prime Rio Ferdinand. I genuinely can't believe how little credit that centre back partnership has got so far, as it looks almost flawless to me. After Stam in '99 our best defender was probably Ronny Johnsen - it's an entirely different level here with Rio/Stam.
Cantona/Ruud is a clear improvement as well, it looks like a fantastic, complimentary partnership to me.
You can't really be serious, this is AC Milan we are talking about, arguably the best club side in history, with a couple of upgrades to boot. You are more likely to score? And his goals are only likely to be flukes? What are you smoking?
Yeah - the first Juve match was positively bizarre. Looking at that team...Both Nevilles and O' Shea along with Rio. Butt, Keane and Veron. Beckham. Then OGS in some sort of wide-ish function - and Forlan up front. Forlan gets himself injured after a few minutes, Giggs comes on - and scores a brace, including a classic Giggsy style raid + finish. A few minutes into the second half, Giggs is then subbed off for RVN - who goes on to score number three.
Fergie. 'Nuff said.
But Cutch ain't sporting O' Shea here, is he? Nor the legendary Danny Pugh - who came on that famous night for said O' Shea.
Don't disagree. More than just individuals, there still is a partnership which is greater than sum of it's parts.
Baresi/Costacurta is still a more proven and better combo than Rio/Stam.
Cantona may be on equal terms with Savicevic, but van Basten is better than RvN.
I would say my team trumps on both partnerships.
I've spent all game giving examples of how i'm gonna score, but had heard very little in return in how Edgar was planning on. With his 2 defensive screens it seemed up to the front 4 to make shit happen. With my defence all matching up well against their opposite numbers i was struggling. Was thinking then about set pieces which is a possibility but less likely than the threat of Cristiano/Stam from a corner or Cristiano/Denis from a free kick.
Aye, that's the romance of a SAF side. The basic unbiased facts though are that they never dominated in Europe, couldn't control the opposition, fluked a final win after being positively battered all game and Fergie spent years trying to work out a midfield and setup that could better control games, and when he finally started homing in on something on came the tiki-taka wankers and waltzed around us. Most of the memorable wins have a significant element of fortitude, while the losses were stark reminders of other teams simply being better.
At the other end you have a team that made a habit of gobbling up and spitting out any team sporting an even half-cocked attacking setup.
If we are to vote wearing red-tinted glasses we may as well cancel the entire draft and give it to Fercutchon already.
I've got dream partnerships all round the pitch. The 2 proven pairings of Neville/Beckham and Scholes/Keane. Undoubted top drawer. 3 others then that should be a match made in heaven. Ultra reliable Irwin behind Ronaldo, the colossus Stam with Rio, and Eric feeding the goalscoring machine Ruud.
There's nothing worse than the realisation that Antohan is not on your side in a draft game.
You're joking, right?
I've mentioned repeatedly that my wings are far better outlets to goals than yours. I'll do so again.
Your offence is very narrow. Beckham crossing to middle, Ronaldo cutting in to the middle....the same place where I have 2 world class DM's hovering.
Nedved skipping past Neville and Donadoni running untracked are FAR easier modes for me to get to your defence....and I'd say much more productive options!
Yeah, same feeling here, and it probably doesn't help EAP with all the bumping of the thread tbh
Shouldn't have got me tied up on that Becks-Nedved discussion, I planned on leaving you to it long ago! Will do now. Cheerio!
Aye - that's where it stands.
Like I said above, it's painful. But all things said and done, that Milan (plus a little bit of Juve and Real) side wouldn't lose this match. There's just very little chance of that happening in my opinion, whether I like it or not (and I don't, obviously).
I think Fergies 4-4-2 was more of his problem in Europe more than an advantage we had tactically or anything. Robson-Keane in their box to box roles with Scholes in his deep lying playmaker role would be perfection here in my eyes. Robson and Keane would just rise on the occasion against Desailly especially(who on the contrary would do a brilliant job on Scholes if he was played as the front in the triangle).
Scholes would dominate the passing with ease, so just move in Giggs on the left, Ronaldo on the right and then keep RVN centrally. That would for me be the winning recipe here as I think the weakest part of EAP's team is Donadoni's and Nedveds lack of a goal threat in comparison to Giggs-Ronaldo as wingers.
With Scholes-Robson-Keane they could afford leaving Giggs and Ronaldo freedom to attack wildly, while as always in the SAF sides - do their part of the defensive job too. Baresi and Maldini would have their hands full with Cristiano while Giggs and RVN would have a great chance to break down the Costacurta/Panucci side.
Scholes would dominate the passing with ease, so just move in Giggs on the left, Ronaldo on the right and then keep RVN centrally. That would for me be the winning recipe here as I think the weakest part of EAP's team is Donadoni's and Nedveds lack of a goal threat in comparison to Giggs-Ronaldo as wingers.
With Scholes-Robson-Keane they could afford leaving Giggs and Ronaldo freedom to attack wildly, while as always in the SAF sides - do their part of the defensive job too. Baresi and Maldini would have their hands full with Cristiano while Giggs and RVN would have a great chance to break down the Costacurta/Panucci side.
Those quotes aren't really telling me anything insightful, only that you'll have more men behind the ball than i will when defending. You're highlighting Donadoni being untracked by Ronaldo yet ignoring the guy that'll actually be marking him, Denis Irwin.
Good point there but I think Tevez and Rooney had to contribute heavily work rate wise because Carrick and an ageing Scholes were rather static deep lying midfielders with the likes of Nani or an ageing Giggs not contributing much work rate wise either. I think a midfield trio of Beckham-Keane-Scholes at their effervescent best would be able to better accommodate Ronaldo and maybe even provide him with a better platform and service.
He also has Van Nistelrooy and Cantona to play off of and the team wont be heavily dependent on him either.
On the RVN point, I see RVN being shut down by your defense if he was the primary goal scoring threat here, with Giggs being a wider presence and Cantona having to contend with your great DMs. Having Ronaldo in the team actually helps to take a bit of the attention off of RVN and Ronaldo will be an welcome distraction IMO. The 06/07 Ronaldo was also more wider of sorts than the Ronaldo we are seeing now. He also loved to start his runs deeper from the flanks and preferred to arrive late in the box or dribbling into the box rather than hindering RVN by hogging the centre and overlapping his areas.
All ideal conditions for him to thrive in IMO, while making the team more defensively solid as well.
Lesser bodies from midfield are required forward and with them playing more of a supporting cast for a great attack. Scholes, Beckham and Keane are complete enough and tactically intelligent enough to play these slightly more conserved roles whilst still having it in their arsenal (long passing, crossing, long shots, quick transitional cross field balls etc)to make a considerable impact on the game.
Tbh I'm doing great disservice to your phenomenal defense and I can go on raving about your great team as well. Just couldn't resist voting for Fergie 's team and can see either team winning this.
I was tinkering with the same thing earlier today. Only I had Cantona up front. You get enough of a goal threat with him up there - and Ronaldo cutting in from the wing. And Robbo bombing into the box when he gets the chance. And, yeah - Giggsy too, who loved nothing better than to step up and grab a goal in big matches.
The counter argument will be that none of those three played in a formation like that - but I say to hell with that. I don't care about "proven" - the question is whether it would work in theory, and I reckon it might.
I really don't get why he is one always attacking? Why doesn't anyone talk about how he will deal with my attack?
Is Nedved vs Neville an equal matchup? Who tracks Donadoni's run in the flanks?
Redondo's performance against United, yet how is Scholes the one controlling the midfield so easily?
Are van Basten and Savicevic that incapable of scoring?
As much as I like that United side, they are being played to super levels here.
The bottom line is that Milan team is one of the best in history, which United cannot claim to be. Both have have upgrades, but even Ronaldo is not sufficient to bring the overall gap.
Is Nedved vs Neville an equal matchup? Who tracks Donadoni's run in the flanks?
Redondo's performance against United, yet how is Scholes the one controlling the midfield so easily?
Are van Basten and Savicevic that incapable of scoring?
As much as I like that United side, they are being played to super levels here.
The bottom line is that Milan team is one of the best in history, which United cannot claim to be. Both have have upgrades, but even Ronaldo is not sufficient to bring the overall gap.
Tell me about it, I've abandoned my own match day thread when my ship hit the antohan iceberg.
will get my coat nowDecided to set camp here.
I was considering Cantona as well but he wasn't a great goalscorer. So then you'd have to use Ronaldo in his peak where everything went through him and I would probably prefer having a balance where Giggs-RVN-Ronaldo are all capable goal scorers but still provide width and dribbling as well. Nothing against the Cantona version either, I just really rate RVN's shielding of the ball which I can see set up (young giggs)Giggs and Ronaldo in full pace plenty.
Would be very similar to Henry-Etoo-Messi for Barcelona but even better. Giggs option inside the box for crosses would be mindboggling, RVN, Ronaldo and box to box runs from Keane/Robson.
The Scholes we're talking about here - Keano's partner - didn't really do that. As both Annah and anto have alluded to, United frequently struggled to control the middle of the park against top European opposition. Scholes was often enough dropped in those days - a fact people tend to forget in light of his overall brilliance, which is undisputed but which is at least partly due to his ability to transform his game. The fact of the matter is that you don't get an all-rolled-into-one Scholes (a box to box player with a wicked shot who was also a masterful long range passer and a deep lying conductor) - yes, he was all of those things, but he wasn't all of them at one and the same time.
Unfortunately its time for the bed, and with work tomorrow i'll struggle to get on much more. Hope i've got the message across on how we'd attempt to scrape out a win here. Not saying it would be easy or a sure thing, but i fancy the pragmatism of this side could get the job done.
My defence is solid as feck. Rio and Stam is a perfect pairing and Schmeichel an all time great. This has as good a chance of any in containing the great MVB. The 2 fullbacks are as consistent and steady as it comes. In centre midfield i think i've the more complementary and proven pairing in Scholes and Keane who will offer more in passing range, goals from midfield and look to gain the upper hand in possession and push this side on the front foot.
Neville/Beckham v Maldini/Nedved is a hell of a battle and one i could ultimately narrowly lose but i think it will be up for the fight and Beckham in possession can use quick ball to my advantage. The diagonal switch to Ronaldo or back post cross to the impossible to handle Ronaldo the main things to look out for. On the left i think its clearer in my favour, Ronaldo in peak form i fancy against Panucci. Upfront is a dream pairing, with a treble wining supporting cast behind them.
Should the goal not materialise from open play then theres every chance it could from a set piece. Ronaldo or Irwin will see to that.
Chat tomorrow. Good game @Edgar Allan Pillow
My defence is solid as feck. Rio and Stam is a perfect pairing and Schmeichel an all time great. This has as good a chance of any in containing the great MVB. The 2 fullbacks are as consistent and steady as it comes. In centre midfield i think i've the more complementary and proven pairing in Scholes and Keane who will offer more in passing range, goals from midfield and look to gain the upper hand in possession and push this side on the front foot.
Neville/Beckham v Maldini/Nedved is a hell of a battle and one i could ultimately narrowly lose but i think it will be up for the fight and Beckham in possession can use quick ball to my advantage. The diagonal switch to Ronaldo or back post cross to the impossible to handle Ronaldo the main things to look out for. On the left i think its clearer in my favour, Ronaldo in peak form i fancy against Panucci. Upfront is a dream pairing, with a treble wining supporting cast behind them.
Should the goal not materialise from open play then theres every chance it could from a set piece. Ronaldo or Irwin will see to that.
Chat tomorrow. Good game @Edgar Allan Pillow
It just occurred to me that this could be so tight in the end that it'll be decided by one regular vote. And that one regular vote would belong to Barney.
@Cutch good night mate. I'll leave it to the neutrals till tomorrow too. Let's continue the argument tomorrow.
No matter who wins, this has been the most interesting match I've been in... And not much shame in losing to Fergie's United
No matter who wins, this has been the most interesting match I've been in... And not much shame in losing to Fergie's United
Apologies if this has been covered (I've only read the first page) but people are underrating 2007/8 Ronaldo significantly. Van Basten's best under Capello was a 29 goal season (0.74 goals a game). Ronaldo's best under Fergie was a 42 goal season (0.86 goals a game). Hell Van Nistelrooy got 44 for us once in a season (0.84 goals a game). Offensively I think @Cutch is way stronger, one of those two is almost guaranteed to score, especially with the likes of Cantona in the team, who actually assisted more goals under Fergie than he scored himself.
Couldn't. I'm really against the decision to start without Giggs, but Cutch got my vote with the "X played YYY games under Fergie" post for hundreds of games for each player under SAF and just couldn't resist itGiving in to temptation, huh
@antohan . I wouldn't have him shitting on Beckham even at their respective peaks. Beckham wasn't a player that could be neutralised easily at his peak, definitely not by a winger whose primary job is rightly an attacking one. Nedved was a very assiduous worker defensively, and quick as well, but he's not going to be super-glued to Beckham every time Cutch's team is in possession.
Cheers Chester. A peak or near-peak Redondo is an important factor here. On EAP's team, you've got a peak or near-peak defence, peak Desailly (I thought he was at his best around the Milan 1994 team), close to peak at least Redondo, Nedved still close to peak, Donadoni at least close to peak, peak Savicevic, and the weird case of Van Basten who should still be judged at peak-form.
I thought the manager factor would favour Cutch but if anything it goes the other way. The Scholes point is well-trodden but always bares repeating as it'd be too easy to turn him into a draft superman if we mix his earlier and later qualities, and Ronaldo is debatable in terms of peak.
I'm still edging towards EAP 2-1, although I'll no doubt slabber on a bit and change my mind a few times now that I've started drinking.
Yeah but clearly scoring goals in 80/90s Serie A was more demanding than any other league ever really. Milan won the title netting a mere 36 (?) times all season around about that time.
The point that comes up in these draft games as regards that, and I think its extremely valid, is how incredibly miserly Serie A defences were back in Van Basten's day. Serie A in the late 80s/early 90s was just a much tougher league to score in. There's stats that'll support that argument that I'll try to find now, but there's a fair few whole matches knocking about on Youtube and the difference in tempo and emphasis is clear.
@Pat_Mustard Couple of drinks and I'll change my vote too - any hint of sentiment here and it works against poor Edgar, I'm afraid...
Point well taken regarding Nedved and Beckham - there is nobody shitting on anyone there. But Nedved is still a pretty much ideal man to field in that capacity - as he will be, and effectively so, on Beckham's case to a greater extent than your average winger while at the same time offering plenty in a creative sense.
Beckham is indeed very hard to neutralize, though. His main strength is one you can't really stifle unless you man-mark him - and Nedved obviously won't be doing that.
Point well taken regarding Nedved and Beckham - there is nobody shitting on anyone there. But Nedved is still a pretty much ideal man to field in that capacity - as he will be, and effectively so, on Beckham's case to a greater extent than your average winger while at the same time offering plenty in a creative sense.
Beckham is indeed very hard to neutralize, though. His main strength is one you can't really stifle unless you man-mark him - and Nedved obviously won't be doing that.
Couldn't. I'm really against the decision to start without Giggs, but Cutch got my vote with the "X played YYY games under Fergie" post for hundreds of games for each player under SAF and just couldn't resist it
In that respect, no manager in this draft can compare to Fergie with longevity.I don't even know how this match is close tbh. From an unbiased perspective - this is not a close game, EAPs Side is one of the strongest in the entire draft.. you've got all time greats in attack, midfield and defence. . None of the United players can lay claim to that bar ronaldo and I doubt his big match ability compared to a van basten.
Ruud and Cantona, would get handled by that defence. It is also being protected by two of the best DMs going in Redondo (single handedly shat on a peak united side) and Desailly in his prime. I could see this being a 5-2 on aggregate to EAP.
Ruud and Cantona, would get handled by that defence. It is also being protected by two of the best DMs going in Redondo (single handedly shat on a peak united side) and Desailly in his prime. I could see this being a 5-2 on aggregate to EAP.
Still the focus seems to be on my defense.
Would appreciate some comments on my attack to his defense.
I promise not to argue till Cutch comes back
Would appreciate some comments on my attack to his defense.
I promise not to argue till Cutch comes back
I haven't actually looked at the score yet but I fear a load of piss-heads like me clicking on the thread will hurt him badly!
The Nedved and Maldini combo is incredible, but in his prime in the big matches the one opponent that I remember offhand comprehesively besting Beckham is Roberto Carlos, and that turned into somewhat the man-marking job you described, with them tracking each other back and forth. With Nedved and Maldini, I still see Beckham as having his moments around the halfway line to just inside EAP's half, and thats all he really needed.