Man Utd set to appoint Director of Football (when hell freezes over)

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let's imagine you're the dof. what decision would you install? i dont think it's gonna be practical and the chances of it being a bigger mess is quite real.

I'd imagine half the caf would sack jose if they're the dof. or to the very least instruct him to play 442, 433, 352.

jose would be furious, being told how to play. probably stating he doesn't have the players. would you sanction another 200m budget to play the way you want? sack jose to replace him with someone that can play 442? ryan giggs?

so. dof. what would you do about pogba, martial? jones? rojo? darmian? instruct jose to sell them?

so you decided jose is shit in transfer, you want to take the transfer into your hand. who would you buy? does having a dof means you got a cheaper price?

there's alot of questions, simply having a dof doesnt mean things are just gonna get bettwr.
 
From moaning about not getting DOF for the last 5 years until United finally look to appoint the director of football, Redcafe users suddenly get worried about having the director football and concerning how it would impact on coaching and transfers. They really can't win Redcafe users.
 
Terrible idea, why add another layer and muddles who is responsible for football results?

If the performance is bad, the manager's sacked. But what if the performance is due to a lack of players or getting the wrong players? Still the manager?

Sad we are moving in this direction, seems like the club is setting up to become yet another club with constant manager merry go around... And frankly I have zero confidence Ed will employ a good DoF and I doubt Ed will give the DoF the final say (which effectively renders him being the chief scout)
 
deafepl said:
From moaning about not getting DOF for the last 5 years until United finally look to appoint the director of football, Redcafe users suddenly get worried about having the director football and concerning how it would impact on coaching and transfers. They really can't win Redcafe users.
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You missed the point if that's you got from the discussion.

The worry is still the most powerful decision makers at the club is still not football people. Those decision makers still can veto both head coach and DOF. So what is the point?

I made my point clear in a previous discussion. If Mourinho leaves, Woodward and whoever else have been making decisions post SAF should get demoted. They can work with commercial side of thing but they shouldn't be allowed to come out and talking about football stuff, like Woodward did: " do thing other clubs can only dream of", performance doesn't affect commercial side (even if it's true), warchest, briefing to the press... These thing from non football people do more harm than help.

Then appoint new head coach and a DOF. The budget should be made clear to the head coach and DOF, and they're free to work with each other's to use the fund. No more bs about war chest yet, Woodward is only happy to sign certain profile with commercial value yet shoestring on what is more important for performance on the pitch.
 
Sky1981 said:
let's imagine you're the dof. what decision would you install? i dont think it's gonna be practical and the chances of it being a bigger mess is quite real.

I'd imagine half the caf would sack jose if they're the dof. or to the very least instruct him to play 442, 433, 352.

jose would be furious, being told how to play. probably stating he doesn't have the players. would you sanction another 200m budget to play the way you want? sack jose to replace him with someone that can play 442? ryan giggs?

so. dof. what would you do about pogba, martial? jones? rojo? darmian? instruct jose to sell them?

so you decided jose is shit in transfer, you want to take the transfer into your hand. who would you buy? does having a dof means you got a cheaper price?

there's alot of questions, simply having a dof doesnt mean things are just gonna get bettwr.
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We set the job decription. Picking the formation etc will not be part of it. Also, who the DOF reports to is up to us aswell. Maybe Jose will give the DOF a profile of player and the DOF will go looking. Or a list of surplus players for the DOF to find new homes for. Hiring a DOF does not have to mean that they get power beyond what we dictate. Maybe Ed has realised that he is better off focusing on business and marketing.
 
ti vu said:
You missed the point if that's you got from the discussion.

The worry is still the most powerful decision makers at the club is still not football people. Those decision makers still can veto both head coach and DOF. So what is the point?

I made my point clear in a previous discussion. If Mourinho leaves, Woodward and whoever else have been making decisions post SAF should get demoted. They can work with commercial side of thing but they shouldn't be allowed to come out and talking about football stuff, like Woodward did: " do thing other clubs can only dream of", performance doesn't affect commercial side (even if it's true), warchest, briefing to the press... These thing from non football people do more harm than help.

Then appoint new head coach and a DOF. The budget should be made clear to the head coach and DOF, and they're free to work with each other's to use the fund. No more bs about war chest yet, Woodward is only happy to sign certain profile with commercial value yet shoestring on what is more important for performance on the pitch.
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No matter who we appoint Dof or manager that would always be the case till the time we have Glazers as owners or for that matter any other owner and there is nothing wrong in that , Irrespective of Dof job profile he won't supersede CEO and the owner and I don't believe it's any different at any Club with Dof structure either .
Anyways I believe what's more important than Dof is the structure beneath it i.e good scouting infrastructure and Dof doesn't work in vacuum and the notion that having Dof means continuity in playing style or even targeting specific style of manager doesn't stand scrutiny as well what matter is creating good quality playing squad and more often than not things would usually fall in place.
 
Jim Reaper said:
We set the job decription. Picking the formation etc will not be part of it. Also, who the DOF reports to is up to us aswell. Maybe Jose will give the DOF a profile of player and the DOF will go looking. Or a list of surplus players for the DOF to find new homes for. Hiring a DOF does not have to mean that they get power beyond what we dictate. Maybe Ed has realised that he is better off focusing on business and marketing.
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so basically what ed is doing now?

how is that gonna help? you'll just be another layer of man to pass the message.

if would be good of we have the likes of johann cruyff to be our technical director. but appointing the wrong person could be catastrophical.

I'd bet many would agree lvg would made a fine dof 5 years ago.
 
Sky1981 said:
so basically what ed is doing now?

how is that gonna help? you'll just be another layer of man to pass the message.

if would be good of we have the likes of johann cruyff to be our technical director. but appointing the wrong person could be catastrophical.

I'd bet many would agree lvg would made a fine dof 5 years ago.
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because the best DOFs are football guys, usually ex-scouts. They have expertise in finding and negotiating for players and have a large knowledge of football. Ed has none of that but is great at the business side of things. That is why it is different to what Ed is doing now.

With Juventus being interested in giving Zidane a Sporting Director role, maybe Paratici is available.
 
The problem is that we've first hired a manager who has question marks over whether he suits the club and we're looking to hire a Director of Football to handle the transfer/other activity for his team. What if the DoF and Mourinho have differing opinions? How does it actually work? City had a set ideology (trying to copy Barca as much as possible) and then got a DoF and a manager to suit that. It seems a better method to me. Will we be getting DoF who will suit Jose's ideas or will we be getting one that suits a ideology we've recently discovered? Lot of question marks.
 
A move in the right direction. It's absolutely crucial to get the right man for the job or else it will be double the headache. I hope it's someone that has a strong tie with United and knows the club inside out.
 
gajender said:
No matter who we appoint Dof or manager that would always be the case till the time we have Glazers as owners or for that matter any other owner and there is nothing wrong in that , Irrespective of Dof job profile he won't supersede CEO and the owner and I don't believe it's any different at any Club with Dof structure either .
Anyways I believe what's more important than Dof is the structure beneath it i.e good scouting infrastructure and Dof doesn't work in vacuum and the notion that having Dof means continuity in playing style or even targeting specific style of manager doesn't stand scrutiny as well what matter is creating good quality playing squad and more often than not things would usually fall in place.
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Those mor successful clubs with the DOF, football board model are those where fans do have some influence. The president is elected. Him and the board member can be pressured to leave. If you leave these tams out then as bad as we are, we are still better than all those using that model yet being hindered by owners, CEOs without football background.

I agree with your second paragraph. The problem is whether the structure beneath where it's under head coach, manager control would be allowed free reign to fulfil their vision. It's not helpful if the CEO telling head coach/ manager they can have huge budget for big names they don't need, yet for who they need, the allowance is not better than mid table club nowadays.
 
I think that it's again, a ploy from the club just to appease fans. They can see that no one is happy with the shit show that was the summer transfer market. They want to avoid the bad publicity more than that.
 
theriddler said:
Either that, or give the manager free reign like at Liverpool, where he is supported 100% by the money men and their recruitment strategy is very well aligned - allowing for efficient decision making and going after the perfect player for the system.
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Just to be clear, Liverpool does have a Director of Football. He’s called Michael Edwards, and he’s there at the encouragement of the manager. We also have a small transfer commitee. They’re all there to support the manager, not dictate to him or screw him over and inflict players on him that he doesn’t want. That only works if you’re open to it. Mourinho’s ability to do that? Hmm.

I agree with a lot of the shouts here. You need some continuity and stability. You had that under SAF, because he was there for so long. A vision of football from him. That’s obviously gone.

You have two sensible choices. First, have a DOF and a team behind the scenes that set the style and tone of the club. Second, get a manager who is going to be there for another quarter decade.

United should have the ability to pluck almost any staff it wants outside of a few clubs. I’d be looking towards Roma.
 
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Just read the news; agree with all those who think it's strange in a number of ways. The timing is odd; should have done this at the end of last season, and why wait until facilities are completed? One has nothing to do with the other, and it's not like there's only one person in charge of doing both hiring and overseeing facility construction/revamping/whatever.

Also daft headline, it's not like City are the only English club with a DoF.
 
ZenMaster Coltrane said:
Absolutely not. Woodward needs to be removed from player acquisitions. He's a bad negotiator, leaves things late and basically interpreted JM's list like it was some grocery list for unnecessary goods. And I don't even like most of Mourinho's targets but Woodward is out of his element.

I would like extra virgin oil...Ed: Sorry, all you're getting is vegetable oil.
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What's this assessment based on?
 
Judas said:
Only any point if they're given true power, otherwise it's just another person to be in the way of Woody's desperation for superstar signings.
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Ultimate power will always lie in the hands of Woodward and the owners.

General point. Not sure what fantasy land some of you are living in if you think a DoF will have any power to overrule Woodward or any future CEO. The employees follow his direction and he follows the board and owners.
 
ZenMaster Coltrane said:
Absolutely not. Woodward needs to be removed from player acquisitions. He's a bad negotiator, leaves things late and basically interpreted JM's list like it was some grocery list for unnecessary goods. And I don't even like most of Mourinho's targets but Woodward is out of his element.

I would like extra virgin oil...Ed: Sorry, all you're getting is vegetable oil.
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Glad to finally have someone on here who is in the room when deals are being made. What else can you tell us? What snacks does Woody provide to try and sweeten the deal? Jaffa Cakes?
 
This just means that now Ed can still control the transfers and someone else can take the blame when we fail. I'll only be satisfied if someone who is appointed is actually a football person and gets full autonomy without Ed's meddling.
 
I don't think Woody has done a bad job, I am certainly not going to blame him for not signing some defenders for stupid amounts of money that they are not worth. His biggest negative so far for me is not player acquisition, but the hiring of the managers. His record so far has been very poor, and the Mourinho situation does not look good either based on the rumours in the media (which could be bs).
There were reports that we were looking for one last season as well, but it did not go far apart from some rumours. I think it is a good idea simply because it will give continuity, especially when our managers change.
 
I'm principally against it but in this day-and-age it's inevitable, as Mourinho recently confirmed. Managers' tenures are too short nowadays and transfer policy should be primarily long-term focused.
 
Seen lots of opinions on whether we should have a Director Of Football but nothing on who people think we’d be best employing in the role ?

Best candidates in my mind would be Monchi from Roma, Paratici from Juve or Berta from Atlético with Berta being my preference as I think what has been built up there over a few years has been amazing and they have a genuine style and identity so sign players to fit into their system.
 
Can we not just get Cantona in ? Not so much as a DoF, more of an ass kicker.

Someone's not doing there job properly/ moaning to the media simple stick them in a room with the king for an hour whilst he kicks the shit out of them, starting with Ed and Jose.
 
Don't like the idea at all.

For a manager to be truly accountable he needs to sign his own players . Otherwise you end up in the position where no one knows who's at fault for poor results. Is it the DoF for signing poor players or the manager for not utilising them correctly?

Whatever people think of Mourinho the victories are his and the failings are likewise. If his victories outweigh his failings he'll stay and if vice versa he'll be sacked. That's clean accountibility.

You can't appoint a member of staff and not give them the tools they need to do their job. The tools a manager needs are his players to suit his tactics.
 
Jim Reaper said:
because the best DOFs are football guys, usually ex-scouts. They have expertise in finding and negotiating for players and have a large knowledge of football. Ed has none of that but is great at the business side of things. That is why it is different to what Ed is doing now.

With Juventus being interested in giving Zidane a Sporting Director role, maybe Paratici is available.
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so you assume just because they used to scouts they can deal with multimillion purchase? will it make levy easy on toby if it was a dof instead of ed? would the dof sanction perisic? willian? can ed veto this dof?

what about phylosophy? tactical? jose is one of the best active manager. so the next dof should be technically and tactically better than jose. because how can he devise a 10 year scheme if he knows nothing about tactics of the modern game.

in order for dof to control jose he by nature has to know better than jose or else he'll just be a hindrance. it'll be a lamp for a table all over again.

fwiw i dont think dof would magically improve us, unless we get that 1 percent chance of finding the right dof.
 
Needs to happen, no more non football people dealing with football matters. Plus it's 2018, get with the times.
 
I think it's a great idea if they can get a top class candidate. The transfer strategy currently is shambolic, where the entire strategy seems to be dictated by a single list provided by Mourinho once a year.

The Director of Football role should be to identify players with the talent, mentality and personality that fits the profile of a United player (in agreement with the manager) and find the optimum time and price to sign him, even if that takes years. Tap him up, schmooze his agent, get him to hold off signing a contract, put United in a position of power to sign the player.
 
Ace of Spades said:
I don't think Woody has done a bad job, I am certainly not going to blame him for not signing some defenders for stupid amounts of money that they are not worth. His biggest negative so far for me is not player acquisition, but the hiring of the managers. His record so far has been very poor, and the Mourinho situation does not look good either based on the rumours in the media (which could be bs).
There were reports that we were looking for one last season as well, but it did not go far apart from some rumours. I think it is a good idea simply because it will give continuity, especially when our managers change.
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The problem is not with what he said about players being very expensive, finances are part of his job anyway, but with what he said about those transfers not improving us. How is he judging that? And it’s not just the hiring of the managers, is it? He sanctioned a lot of transfers under Moyes and LVG, often for a lot of money, and hardly any of them come off.

Schmeiderlin
Schweinsteiger
Rojo
Darmian
Di Maria
Depay
etc. etc.

So it’s kinda very weird of him to suddenly be developing the talent to tell which player would be good for us and which player wouldn’t and applying this judgement on Mourinho’s targets.

In any case the club under Ed has changed managers twice in 5 years, spent a lot of money on many players but ultimately there wasn’t a marked improvement in the football or the trophy haul to match the investment. And as the man at the top, the buck stops with him.

If the club hadn’t been performing so well financially he’d be in deep trouble now, in terms of justifying his worthiness for the job. I don’t see the Presidents/CEOs/Chairmen of other top clubs as capable of retaining their jobs after 5 years of failures.

And one last thing. From what I’ve read our revenue and profits have increased in line with the other top clubs in Europe and in the EPL. He inherited the richest and most reputable club in the world based on work done mostly by SAF and Gill. We’re still there, but to an extent this is just coasting on a status built before him. I don’t know to what extent he’s the financial genius people make him up to be.

So far his tenure as CEO is a failure for me and if I was the owner I’d be questioning his ability to run the football side of the business.
 
MadMike said:
The problem is not with what he said about players being very expensive, finances are part of his job anyway, but with what he said about those transfers not improving us. How is he judging that? And it’s not just the hiring of the managers, is it? He sanctioned a lot of transfers under Moyes and LVG, often for a lot of money, and hardly any of them come off.

Schmeiderlin
Schweinsteiger
Rojo
Darmian
Di Maria
Depay
etc. etc.

So it’s kinda very weird of him to suddenly be developing the talent to tell which player would be good for us and which player wouldn’t and applying this judgement on Mourinho’s targets.

In any case the club under Ed has changed managers twice in 5 years, spent a lot of money on many players but ultimately there wasn’t a marked improvement in the football or the trophy haul to match the investment. And as the man at the top, the buck stops with him.

If the club hadn’t been performing so well financially he’d be in deep trouble now, in terms of justifying his worthiness for the job. I don’t see the Presidents/CEOs/Chairmen of other top clubs as capable of retaining their jobs after 5 years of failures.

And one last thing. From what I’ve read our revenue and profits have increased in line with the other top clubs in Europe and in the EPL. He inherited the richest and most reputable club in the world based on work done mostly by SAF and Gill. We’re still there, but to an extent this is just coasting on a status built before him. I don’t know to what extent he’s the financial genius people make him up to be.

So far his tenure as CEO is a failure for me and if I was the owner I’d be questioning his ability to run the football side of the business.
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Woodward ran the marketing side before he replaced Gill and was widely regarded as the guy who took United a level further commercially. I’m not too bappy about him right now, but he is definitely not coasting on other people’s work - commercially wise.
 
ti vu said:
Those mor successful clubs with the DOF, football board model are those where fans do have some influence. The president is elected. Him and the board member can be pressured to leave. If you leave these tams out then as bad as we are, we are still better than all those using that model yet being hindered by owners, CEOs without football background.

I agree with your second paragraph. The problem is whether the structure beneath where it's under head coach, manager control would be allowed free reign to fulfil their vision. It's not helpful if the CEO telling head coach/ manager they can have huge budget for big names they don't need, yet for who they need, the allowance is not better than mid table club nowadays.
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Oh I absolutely agree as bad our situation is portrayed to be it is still better than most of the club's and regarding your point about allocating huge budget for superstar signing as long as it plug the hole in the squad it's absolutely fine but overpaying regularly for middling talent is the recipe for disaster and it's not as if Mourinho has not been backed it's just that board and Mourinho need to have better coordination . I simply believe most of are problems are playing personnel related just need bit of tweaking , fill the few remaining gaps to create better balanced team we should be just fine all this negativity and apprehension about future is forcing fans to behave quite irrationally .
 
David Beckham confirmed.

Suits Woodward perfectly. He can even direct from LA.
 
Our managerial changes post-Fergie have always been traumatic. Compare that to Real, Barca, Bayern etc. who seem to change managers routinely, and things continue like business as usual. We need to get to that level, where the manager (or 'head coach') is just part of the machinery of the football side of the club, rather than being the one man in charge of everything. Only Fergie could pull that off, that's what made him legendary.

It's probably not the best expression, but the manager needs to be a cog in the football machinery of the club, rather than the machine itself. We're still attached to this old-fashioned idea that managers will be at the club long term and build up their own structure. The execs need to accept that managers will be here 2-4 years and move on, and the structure at the club needs to reflect that. It seems every time we change manager, things just 'reset' and start over, and that's why we've made absolutely no progress since Fergie retired - we've effectively restarted 3 time over, with each new manager trying to undo the previous managers work.
 
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We need a DOF. It takes us ages to get rid of players, we overspend and overpay for almost any player we want and we are able to stop a manager from getting his targets but fall short in providing alternatives to them. Anyone mentioning SAF or Cantona is frigging crazy. Both are cut off from today's football and will need years to build their contacts back. A DOF will need to travel alot to build contacts something SAF at his age cant (not to forget he hates agents which is exactly the people a DOF has constant contact with)

PS DOFs do not choose tactics on the manager's behalf. They listen to the manager's demands, they work with the manager on lists and they suggest players that they think they share what the manager need.
 
YouOnlyLiveTwice said:
The quote about Woodward still being heavily involved, makes me think it isn't the DOF type that many of us want.

Still, a man can hope.
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Roman is still involved in Chelsea's transfers, as was Berlusconi. As is Barca's president.

DoF is there to make a long term strategy, identify the value of players, identify players and managers to hire, not necessarily to do the negotiations. That is better left at the hands of economists who have spent their entire life doing so.
 
finneh said:
Don't like the idea at all.

For a manager to be truly accountable he needs to sign his own players . Otherwise you end up in the position where no one knows who's at fault for poor results. Is it the DoF for signing poor players or the manager for not utilising them correctly?

Whatever people think of Mourinho the victories are his and the failings are likewise. If his victories outweigh his failings he'll stay and if vice versa he'll be sacked. That's clean accountibility.

You can't appoint a member of staff and not give them the tools they need to do their job. The tools a manager needs are his players to suit his tactics.
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Agree 100%
 
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