Ake was injured for most of the season.
Furthermore when Ake came to City, Stones was nowhere near his actual level, Laporte was injured and always had that costly mistake in him, Garcia wanted out and Otamendi was past it.
Man City 2020/21 - General discussion
- Thread starter Suedesi
- Start date
Furthermore when Ake came to City, Stones was nowhere near his actual level, Laporte was injured and always had that costly mistake in him, Garcia wanted out and Otamendi was past it.
I keep hearing about how Pep has the best squad because the players were expensive, but how how many of these players were considered the best or even top 5 in their positions before they had Pep as a coach? Only one as far as I'm concerned, KDB...
Gundogan didn't play for almost 2 years because of a back injury
Rodri had one good season (not great) with Athletico
Mahrez wasn't performing with Leicester. I know he's won the player of the season before during that freakish season, but he's even progressed as a player under Pep
Zinchenko is an above average midfielder during great as a LB
Dias has been great for City, but no one was talking about him as a great defender before this season
Stones spent a major part of his last season at Everton on the bench, the same goes for Kyle Walker who had a falling out with Pochettino and no one considered both of them to be WC players.
Sterling had 2 average to horrible seasons before Pep arrived, and was being abused by the country (and laughed at by the whole world) after a very poor euro performance
And the list goes on...
People are looking at the finished product and now saying that City has a great squad, but the truth is that Pep made that squad become great.
Gundogan didn't play for almost 2 years because of a back injury
Rodri had one good season (not great) with Athletico
Mahrez wasn't performing with Leicester. I know he's won the player of the season before during that freakish season, but he's even progressed as a player under Pep
Zinchenko is an above average midfielder during great as a LB
Dias has been great for City, but no one was talking about him as a great defender before this season
Stones spent a major part of his last season at Everton on the bench, the same goes for Kyle Walker who had a falling out with Pochettino and no one considered both of them to be WC players.
Sterling had 2 average to horrible seasons before Pep arrived, and was being abused by the country (and laughed at by the whole world) after a very poor euro performance
And the list goes on...
People are looking at the finished product and now saying that City has a great squad, but the truth is that Pep made that squad become great.
Some slight exaggeration used there but I agree Pep clearly improves players although the majority you mentioned signed for 40 mil plus and yes most were considered top players or players with the potential to be top class before they signed. An issue I have with Pep is his lack of either trust or want to help improve and integrate academy players, obviously Foden is excelling now but his talent is clear and you could even argue he was capable a year or 2 ago, for how good City’s youth setup is you’d expect more players in the squad especially if he’s as good at improving players as you believe
Naah, I'm not having that.
Mahrez has had his best two seasons at Leicester. His season after the title win was poor (as was the rest of the squad - we nearly got relegated), but he put up good numbers the next season.
Because he's gone under the radar/performed poorly/lacked game time for a while, and has had a recent ressurgance, people forgot how ridiculously good he actually was.
The City fans are blaming Sterling for the racist abuse because they think it is his fault for having been a public person. Typical City. The owners and the fans deserve each other.
I think they had a bad patch which weakens their stats. Defensively and in midfield I think this is their strongest team.
In my opinion we can’t give managers much credit for players technical skills at this level. The term technical coach is pretty irrelevant when talking about the high technical standard among City players (individually).
Want to make a reservation, because our interpretation of the term technical coach may differ
I agree but it's the tactical coach too. The other major issues is also the players also want to win. Players want to die for SAF and coaches who may be tactically better may not have that kind of wanting to win attitude that SAF always had.
We've seen a lot of players with potential never leave up their said potential, and i'm talking about players that were thought to have a higher potential than that of these City players.
Potential doesn't mean that much IMO.
How do you know he doesn't want to help improve and integrate academy players though? Maybe there're just not that good yet or at the level he wants them to reach?
You can argue the season when he won the POTY award was his best, but let's be real, he didn't have any other season with Leicester as good as the one he's currently having with City (and which IMO is his best season).
Hmm. Not sure if I buy your last point. City had the best squad and best squad depth in PL before Pep arrived. They’ve added players who has developed an taken the “next step”. The success formula is hard competition from day one. No one can take pitch-time for granted - someone is always pushing from behind; players have to deliver and work hard to defend their position.
Formula (step by step): 1.Very good players, 2. competitive environment, 3. winning mentality 4. combined with a manager who is able to build team spirit and enthusiasm
We’re not talking promising young players from lower leagues or players who’d been relegated here we’re talking players who’d already performed to a high level at top European clubs and mostly full internationals, I agree he’s improved players but you’re definitely over exaggerating their improvement. The fact he hasn’t brought through any young players because they aren’t good enough emphasises my point he’s suppose to work with them to make them good enough but he doesn’t seem to do that. For instance I don’t see City’s squad being much worse if for example you replaced Steffen, Ake, Torres & Mahrez with Gunn, Tosin, Sancho & Ian Nacho. Would in fact give him another 80 mil or so to spend
I guess you meant Iheanacho...
But you looking at those players from where they are today, not where they were back when they were still with City.
Sancho (like Brahim Diaz a season after him) decided to go and try his luck elsewhere, unlike Foden who decided he wanted to stay.
Pep actually played Iheanacho and he wasn't good enough or convincing, even at Leicester it took him a very longtime to start showing the quality he's shown lately.
City just like United or Chelsea and few others are clubs who are playing to win the title, they aren't going to feed youth talents continuously just for the sake of proving that they can also develop youth talents, if they feel the aren't ready yet. Unless they really don't have another choice (lack of options).
Mancini and Pellegrini did win league titles for City. Why are City fans so keen to forget their own success? Could it be that they're trying to cultivate their very own Busby/Ferguson figure in Pep and the fact that these 2 mere mortals won the league before him doesn't help the narrative that he's a footballing God?
For what it's worth I reckon Ole would win the league with the best squad seeing as though he's coming 2nd with the 3rd best squad.
Better than that Luis Enrique would win it too. Remember him. He followed Pep out of the Barca B team and repeated Pep's efforts. The difference being that he isn't as good at career management as Pep.
Pep's a good coach but his best asset is his ability to pick jobs where it would be hard to lose. I reckon PSG will be next and some people will be astounded that he is able to win the league there.
I appreciate how City play. The same way I appreciated how they played under Pellegrini. The same way I appreciated how Barca played under Luis Enrique.
I don't put it all down to Pep you see. There's a reason why clubs spend 95% of their wage bill on the playing squad and the the other 5% on coaches.
I'm afraid you're never going to get me to believe that football is complex. It's not bloody quantum physics man. You run into space to receive the ball, preferably a space near the opponents goal. I don't believe Professor Phil Foden has some sophisticated understanding of the game that's beyond my comprehension. I rather think it's his innate ability on the ball, athletic ability etc that unfortunately separate us.
Do this for me Adisa. Imagine the oil money went to Newcastle instead of City in 2008. Do you still think we're talking about City having won 5 Premier league's and being in a champions league final?
Do you think the glorious Pep would win the league with old City or do you think whoever showed up managing Newcastle might stand a better chance?
You're right. He'd do what Bielsa is doing at Leeds. Well said.
Fergie would build a dynasty and therein lieth the difference.
If Pep is such a wonderful coach where is his conveyor belt of kids coming through by the way. Will somebody please answer me that?
Surely such an amazing coach can just as easily coach up some kids rather than constantly spending 60 million to solve problems. It's it all just a bit too complex for them?
Last edited:
I believe you're wrong then. At the very top, it is highly, highly complex. If you're interested, you can find very interesting analyses on spielverlagerung.com, e. g. this one right here: https://spielverlagerung.com/2021/03/22/how-guardiola-3-2-2-3-ultimately-solved-the-defending-meta/
This blog by the way produced a professional coach in Rene Maric who's currently Marco Rose's assistant coach at Gladbach. That's the kind of in depth analysis professionals conduct these days. And they work with advanced metrics, too. It is often hinted at in interviews etc.
And Foden doesn't need to be a professor, he has to follow instructions, nothing more. That being said, I'm sure he understands the game - intuitively or consciously - on a level beyond your or my comprehension. Timing, awareness of space and surroundings, reaction times, ability to track multiple moving objects at once in his mind, etc. From a scientific perspective, football is highly complex, like it or not.
Right! Or, like, why did Pep need a LB when he could have play ZinchenkoAnd you do realise right none of them are right wingers? Pogba at RWIt's like saying why did Pep need a CB when he could have played Rodri
But no 80 million players - maybe buy two 40 million players instead
They did?
Almost all of their best players on the wrong side of 30 and past their best.
Sterling was constantly laughed at here by the cafe. De Bruyne didn't have a great season(throwback to Rojo shutting him down at OT that season). Silva looked past his best. Yaya Toure was completely finished.
It's pure revisionism to suggest they had the best squad and best squad depth in the Premier League. They were a decaying team.
This was their starting XI in a CL semi-final.
Their subs that day
Only 4 people left (2 of them are leaving at the end of the season) from this City semifinal squad. And people still think Pep hasn't done a rebuild in his career as a manager. In fact he is rebuilding again now and in the next season.. Pep's City 2.0 is in the works.
It’s not so much of a rebuild, rather an endless supply of money and whoever he wants every summer. Not something to be particularly lauded.
In your starting XI I see 5-6 world class players or the best players in PL that time.They did?
Almost all of their best players on the wrong side of 30 and past their best.
Sterling was constantly laughed at here by the cafe. De Bruyne didn't have a great season(throwback to Rojo shutting him down at OT that season). Silva looked past his best. Yaya Toure was completely finished.
It's pure revisionism to suggest they had the best squad and best squad depth in the Premier League. They were a decaying team.
This was their starting XI in a CL semi-final.
Their subs that day
City’s transfer strategy has been smart. They have off course spent a huge amount of money, but they have avoided the mega signings. That way City has increased squad depth and competitiveness. Incoming players are motivated by playing with “old” stars with winning mentality. When we add competitiveness and an enthusiastic manager I understand why incoming players step up.
İlkay Gündoğan (£27m) and Dias (£67m) = super bargains.
Say something about competitiveness and squad depth when City can afford to have example Sterling on the bench in a CL semi and play Mahrez (only) 60-65% of matches.
Of course I’m looking at them where they are now, it shows they are capable players and would likely be further along in development if given the opportunity to play with better players and a better coach. I’m not saying Pep can’t develop players he proved that at Barca but I’d agree with your opinion he drastically improves player more if he’d turned the likes of Sancho and Tosin in to players rather than Sterling and Stones.
It’s interesting you use Utd and Chelsea as examples cos both clubs have a number of academy players in their squads despite spending money and in fact Utd pride themselves on it.
It only adds more weight to the argument his success is down to outspending rivals (a view I don’t agree with) that his lack of developing players from one of the best academies in football doesnt seem to interest him
I never said those that those teams don't use academy players, i said that they'll only use them if they're thought to be good enough (like Pep with Foden), not just because they want to prove a point.
The reason they dominate so much is their depth. Other than left back, they have 2 world class players in every position. No other team in world football has that. Add the worlds best coach to the mix & it’s a recipe for domination.
They are the most expensively assembled squad in the history of football, and have been for about a decade. The fact that they are only just now in a CL final is actually an underachievement. Especially when you consider how favourable their draws have been in recent years.
They are the most expensively assembled squad in the history of football, and have been for about a decade. The fact that they are only just now in a CL final is actually an underachievement. Especially when you consider how favourable their draws have been in recent years.
An important aspect og this transferstrategy is, that they can afford to spend fantasyllions of euros on 3 top Right Backs.
It’s no wonder they make great hits, when they can just fire the transfer-shotgun. Think Aké and Dias here.
Not that Pep isn’t a brilliant coach, but the transfer strategy is not great, it’s at most average.
Obviously the more money a club has the more chance they have at winning things but that comes with it's own problems. It's all well and good spending fortunes on players but if you don't have the right man to lead them then it's not going to work. It takes a special kind of manager to manage the egos of these players and it's no where as easy as you seem to think or else PSG would have 5 CLs to their name instead of 0.
That is a massive exaggeration.
But my point is Pep’s barometer for what constitutes being good enough seems to be higher than any other and if you’re not there yet he’s not gonna waste time trying to develop you. I’m not saying some of these players would be regular starters but they could easily be squad players and having a good core of academy players always feel more special when winning trophies. It’s taken a generational talent like Foden to force his hand but most fans and pundits were clamouring for Foden to play more the past 2 years.
My main argument was against the list of players that you seem to think had dramatic upturns in performance after Pep, pretty much every player you mentioned had won trophies at their previous clubs and were full internationals
You mean like City have 0. They’ve not won it yet mate. Although I agree with you’re main point, is Pep still as special if he doesn’t win it this year?
United top five spen= €411m
City top five spendings = €327m
Don’t think our best five players in sum has been better than City’s best five players.
The difference is even bigger if it’s controlled for inflation and price increase in the market.
Based on which teams played in CL semis it looks like results and spending correlate. United is an exemption. The question is maybe not how smart clubs can be on the transfer market, but how stupid they can be
Last edited:
It's just false.
Right now, their undisputable WC players are: De Bruyne, Dias, Gundogan... That's it.
I think you did abit of underestimation here. Aside from winning many trophies, Pep did build some amazing team with breathtaking football during his time at Barca (tiki taki at its prime) and City over past few seasons (attacking/dominating football with style)
There has to be something there where he sees that he can push further without disrupting the general play of the team just for the sake of integrating average youth players. He saw these qualities in Busquets, Pedro, Kimich, and a few others.
As for the players i listed being full internationals, how many of them were considered the main players in their international team though? And even in club level, how many trophies had they won? Winning an occasional trophy in a great one-off season doesn't make a player a world-class player imo.
Nobody was even bringing up Dias when the discussion of world-class players or even defenders came up before this season, i'll say he's having a world-class season but I'll wait before calling him a world-class player.
Most people (even City fans) were calling Gundogan an average player before this season, and were wondering why Pep played him so much.
The only undisputed world-class player in that team IMO is Debruyne.
Yeah I agree.
Stones, Laporte, Dias, Aké (all still here)
Cancelo, Danilo, Walker, Mendy (all but one still here)
You can't include Mangala as he was signed long before Pep. If you insist on including him it's very puzzling indeed that you didn't also include Otamendi, Demichelis etc. Wonder why...
Of the rest, almost all are still here and contributing effectively. The exceptions are Danilo (can't account for him wanting to play more regularly), Mendy (can't account for his injury problems) and Angeliño (can't account for him being a bit of a dick).
It's not like we're throwing darts at a wall and signing whoever it lands on.
United is a Liverpool fan now? Might explain a lot...
The guy you replied to is a Liverpool fan.
Have City fans stopped hating UEFA now?