Yep.
Man City 2020/21 - General discussion
- Thread starter Suedesi
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Yep.
sure, I think Ferguson and Pep are so similar, both absolutely fantastic league managers but their records in Europe should be better than what they are given the talent they have managed.
Just confirmed. His career win percentage is 78%. Ridiculous.
I actually think Ferguson is more similar to Ancelotti (in his prime) and Zidane than Pep, even though Ferguson has a much better league record than Ancelotti and Ancelotti and Zidane have better records in Europe.
why's that?
I can possibly see the Ancelotti but don't see anything on the Zidane side.
The Champions League is a cup competition, though. Judging someone's dominance on cup competitions always seemed inane. Ferguson won 13 premier leagues and built 4 great teams. Guardiola is about to win his 9th title in a top 5 league.
When people say "manager X should be doing better in cup competition Y given his resources", it seems to miss the point. We'd be placing way too much importance on a stretch of 7 knockout matches, rather than an entire domestic season of dominance. I just don't think European records matter as much as some do. Nor do I think any team (no matter how great) should be expected to win the CL in any given season, when the format is what it is and entire ties can be decided by a 10 minute stretch that goes wrong.
SAF is a better man manger than Pep. But Pep is a much better technical coach.
What Zidane is doing with a talented and experienced, but also a bit past it squad with some mediocre players - playing to their strengths - is what Ferguson did especially from 2010-2013.
But Zidane has „only“ been managing for 5 years or something, so who knows what or how he does next.
fair play, I see what you mean
I could be miles of the mark but I don't think Zidane will replicate what he did in his first spell at Madrid with another club, no logical reason but just think without Ronaldo he doesn't seem that great tactically or innovative enough for me.
Don't even feel the need to compare Pep and SAF. Pep could be one of the GOATs and still not come close to SAF.
That boring stuff again. And let me guess: Excellent man management is enough to win 4 European trophies and 16 league titles over 3 decades? The rest came from his assistants who all magically didn’t even come close to his success without him (just because they were lacking man management skills)? Sounds legit.
I sorta agree with you on some parts, but his starting position at City was still far, far ahead of managers at their equivalent clubs. You could make an honest case for Pellegrini underperforming considering the squad he had at his disposal (and even then, they won the league the season before). Before Pep had even signed a player, they already had Kompany, Sterling, David Silva, Aguero, Yaya Toure, Fernandinho, and Kevin de Bruyne at the club. Having that to start with and then being able to spend close to £1bn in 5 seasons is going to give you an advantage that no other team can really compete with.
Also, your win percentage stats aren't quite right. It's 73.2%.
Looking at his Bayern time - I'd argue that most of Bayern's managers this decade probably have a similar win percentage record as Pep during his time there. They're streets ahead of their rivals in that league. Hansi's win rate for example is 82%. Carlo Ancelotti's time there (which is roundly renounced by our resident Bayern fans) still managed a 70% win rate. Niko Kovac, who's probably the worst of the lot in the last decade has a 69.23% win rate at Bayern.
It's similar if we analyse his Barcelona time. Pep's win rate at Barca was 72.47%. Tito Vilonova managed 75.56%, Luis Enrique's was 76.2%. We've only seen a malaise in the Barca machine since Luis Enrique departed (with latter managers getting between 66-70% win rate).
Pep (for obvious reasons) chooses the teams he manages selectively well. It's why, say, Luis Enrique doesn't have a 76.2% win rate across his career, or Hansi Flick doesn't have 82% at every job. This is why many posters (myself included) would like to see Pep at a club that either isn't the best in their league etc.
It seems for some United fans Pep vs Queiroz would be a better comparison
Exactly. People are desperate to play down Fergie’s achievements and fecking anoint Pep as the greatest thing to ever happen to football. He isn’t on Sir Alex’s level, not now not ever.
Disagree but let's see how the final goes as I think Tuchel (if Chelsea go through) will test them. City are not as good as 2/3 years ago but they more pragmatic so maybe that's the balance they need for the CL. If you think this City team are even close to Pep's Barca, in the words of Jose, I have nussin' to say.
Obviously, we all saw how the head to head went.
Getting quality subordinates is one of the most important qualities of man management. Getting the best out of your staff is man management.
Why should his assistants be successful in a different job? They were not top quality managers. They were only top quality coaches.
I see. So Ole must be a better technical coach than Pep then or at least on the same level.
And Ancelotti > Pep when both were managing a top team.
A top quality coach should be successful on his own.
Like Flick who was assistant to Löw and went on to win a treble without Löw.
Queiroz and Co were good in certain aspects of coaching and tactics under supervision would be the more accurate answer.
They have the most expensive squad assembled in the history of e league they’ve performed about par for course
I think they are better now tbh.
It’s the most expensive squad for a reason, they have like 4-5 50-60m players.
Nah no way.
Pep has to build a team, maybe a few times, before he's held in that regard.
TBF that's started this year and we'll know more over the next couple of years as City will pretty soon fully become his team. So far the core has been players previous managers recruited.
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If you have lots of money to spend, Pep is probably the best manager you can get for the job. People would say, there are plenty of managers who could create a top side with so much cash at their disposal, and that's true, but there's clearly much more to that than just ability to spend big. He's a brilliant manager with his own philosophy and a true perfectionist who demands an absolute best from his players and never settles for second best.
Having said that, Pep could have never won the CL with Porto back in 2004 or PL with Leicester in 2016. He needs players with certain characteristics to make his system work and he just happened to have always been in the right place at the right time to have an ideal situation to work at, be that Barca, Bayern or City.
Having said that, Pep could have never won the CL with Porto back in 2004 or PL with Leicester in 2016. He needs players with certain characteristics to make his system work and he just happened to have always been in the right place at the right time to have an ideal situation to work at, be that Barca, Bayern or City.
Would you still feel this way if he doesn’t win the Champions League this year?
He’s clearly one of the greatest coaches ever and I have no problem with those who think he’s the best ever although I disagree, however I feel his time at city seems to get overrated or underrated depending who you speak to. Saying no other manager could have achieved what he has with city seems just as crazy as saying his success is only down to money spent
Its more than that...
Cancelo, Walker, Mendy, Stones, Dias, Laporte, Rodri, Mahrez, Bernardo. And that’s just in the current squad
And when he arrived they had Komoany, Sterling, David Silva, Aguero, Yaya Toure, Fernandinho, and Kevin de Bruyne.
People can argue all they want that Kompany missed games and he has improved Sterling (who cost 60 million himself after a fantastic league campaign). Minor details.
Their squad is massive, they broke rules, even their declared above board wage bill is massive. They have easily rotated their bloated squad in a season with a tight calendar to come out on top.
Guardiola is a great coach, but the advantages he has are absurd and nothing about this is special. To celebrate it is to negate what caused the super league talk in the first place. No one can compete long term with this juggernaut.
United, badly mismanaged, were clinging on, but City will just pull away further now in a post-Covid world with none of the same restrictions that other clubs have had to deal with.
Summed up just about right
Dias is a great signing but how much have City now spent on their defence? They seem to have gone through so many CBs and fullbacks before finding the right pair. No other manager had that luxury.
Bang on. To be fair to him he has actually said this himself.
Clubs with bottomless pits of cash like City & PSG are perfect for him because if he gets a signing wrong he can just rectify it the next summer with another 50m right back. Even Barca & Bayern don’t do that.
I think PSG will be his next destination once he finally leaves City. I see people mention Juve but they won’t back him the way he needs to be backed to get optimum results.
I know it sounds like im shitting on him, but I’m actually not. The way he wants football played requires elite talent, which costs an awful lot of money. I’m sure he would win the league at Juve, but they wouldn’t get the optimal Pep if they limit his spending.
I had a quick look on that Blue Moan forum to see how they were looking forward to the CL final, but all I could find were threads about us.
Even the threads that weren't about us to begin with, ended up being about us in the end. Even the Glazer protest, they have somehow attributed it to
being all about stopping them from winning the title!! Nothing to do with the maximum exposure of getting the PL's biggest global fixture called off, and spreading the message worldwide in one fell swoop. Nope, we wanted to stop Phil Foden from tweeting a picture of his eyebrows with a glass of champagne!! You've rumbled us, lads!!
There does seem to be a bizarre group of oddballs on there, who are like jilted ex-lovers who can't seem to let go of their bitterness. They have something that can only be described as "Rag Tourette's".
This is where everything that happens in their entire existence, funnels towards the same conclusion. My cat has died, "Rags!". My Tesco delivery was late, "Rags!" Nobody cares when we win a game, "Rags!" I lost my job, "Rags!"
The best tin foil hat conspiracy today was the one that our 79 year old, 8 years retired, ex manager was giving motivational speeches to PSG's foreign legion of hired mercenaries. Just think about that for a second. "Och, Neymar, make sure ye cut in on yer right, as ye cannee shoot with yer left."
Fergie and Pochettino happen to be friends going back a decade. The way these people's minds work is truly psychotic.
It must be so tiresome to be on that forum, it was for me and I was only on there for a few minutes. All threads merge into the same subject matter. Not only is it dull and repetitive, it is weird. Prestwich Blue and Karen need to seek professional help. Others too. I think they all get energy from each others miserable outlook on everything.
Instead of celebrating their new found fortune, they are still crying in the rain, watching their ex partner through the kitchen window.
"Look at me, I've been to the Gym. I've got muscles now, and I've dyed my hair (with a slightly blue tinge.) I have new teeth, and I don't cry wank anymore. Please give me some credit, please notice that I exist. Please....please...."
Read this below without cringing yourself inside out. This was posted the morning after they reached the CL final. The biggest event in their entire history. Instead of celebrating or basking in the joy of their semi final win, he thought to himself, I know what we good to do. I'll write a letter to Manchester United fans. Yeah, because that would be a normal thing to do. No, not weird at all.
I am embarrassed for him. I am embarrassed for all City fans, especially for that cobwebcat fella who is trying to make them see how stupid they are under the circumstances, but it is to no avail. This is like trying to reason with a Brexiteer. They will probably call him a rag next and try and get him booted off the forum. They could really do with some new blood over there.
https://forums.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk/threads/an-open-letter-to-united-fans.350588/
If Pep was our coach we wouldn't have the squad we have. Can you imagine him giving a Lukaku transfer the green light?One!! And first semi in 5 years, no idea why you are writing finals.
And to answer your question, no, Ole wouldn’t have won 3 league titles as he is not as good as Pep, but he would have probably won 1 or 2. Even Pellegrini won a title.
But then Pep would have not won 3 titles at United with our squad (like he has done at City).
And he would not have achieved Klopp‘s success at Liverpool with Klopp‘s spending.
So club structure and having owners who care about success on the pitch do matter a lot. Otherwise the manager has to get a lot of things right with small margin for error in order to compensate for the incompetence of the owners.
Rival fans who moans about caf should be sent to forum like bluemoan.
£400m on defense alone. £450m if you wanna throw the goalkeepers in, too. The thing is with City, it's not just the amount of money they've spent, it's the fact that there is absolutely no risk at all in their transfers. By which I mean, if they feck up and buy a dud (which they have) there zero consequences to that. They're not going to go into serious debt spending and spending (like Barca have, basically), they're not going to have to curb their spending in the next transfer window because they fecked up the previous one. There's no sense of "well, we got you that player now make it work" from the owners. That's a privileged position that no other team in the world can compete with (apart from PSG, probably)
It wouldn’t shock me the fact they’re still so obsessed with us is a result of cognitive dissonance, deep down they know their club haven’t earnt anything and it’s a hollow victory. In a way I feel bad for them, it’s not like it’s their fault they got taken over.
I know that people will want to praise Pep Guardiola & they should -
However, I do think this shows a bit of the benefit of being loyal to a manager that gets to stay at a club a while and target better players than the season before.
I feel that managers have a 3 year span. Pep would have been moved like he did at Bayern - but at City he has that loyalty, that ability to build a squad with every single player he wanted from Ake to Laporte to Dias to Stones over a period of 5 years or more.
However, I do think this shows a bit of the benefit of being loyal to a manager that gets to stay at a club a while and target better players than the season before.
I feel that managers have a 3 year span. Pep would have been moved like he did at Bayern - but at City he has that loyalty, that ability to build a squad with every single player he wanted from Ake to Laporte to Dias to Stones over a period of 5 years or more.
Pep will not leave City if he wins the CL league this season. He has 2 more years left of his contract and i believe he will extend for more when the timing is right. I expect him to stay at City at least 10 years (2016-2026). After that the destination is Italy but i think it would be not Juventus but some of the Milanó's clubs (AC Milan hinted earlier this year that they want Guardiola as their future coach when his contract with City is over) or even Roma (he played for them) - they have now rich american owners and just appointed Jose Mourinho..Imagine Pep to succeed Mou there
How’s that? Pep has won 9 leagues in 3 top leagues. About to win his third European cup. Probably will go down as the best coach in history because he isn’t slowing down is he.
I'd be interested to hear why you think that? PL is weaker than ever this year with covid and they have no real competition, City have the biggest and best squad and yet they are going to be nowhere near their record points total. They will score less, and concede more than in both of those campaigns as well. That's with the added break they had which I do think should factor in here as well. Domestically they are nowhere near where they were in my opinion - they are extremely functional and much more solid defensively but I don't think they're at the same level.
In Europe it's interesting because I've always felt Pep post Barca in the CL has quite a poor 'big' game record. They've had a very favourable draw this year (as seems to be the norm), PSG was the first team with near equal strength + they were incredibly lucky with the non Ederson red/Bellingham no goal scenario against Dortmund. It will be intriguing to see the final because a non Barca CL win is long overdue for Pep.
They free to do so but it doesn't make their point any more valid.
Did SAF manage West Ham or any mid-table club after his glorious tenure at MU? No. Did Wenger go back to Monaco or Nancy after Arsenal? No. It always goes the other way around, these are top managers used to manage top players. They would never go backward, unless they lost their mojo and aren't able to deliver at the highest level anymore. Just like the players or any professional for that matter. Cristiano Ronaldo went from Sporting to MU to Madrid. In the twilight of his career and understanding that his time at Madrid was up, he went to a league which is less demanding but still chose the best club there.
Sure, they generally start small and work their way to the top. Guardiola just happened to skip these steps and went straight from Barca B to the first team. Which is by the way no mean feat, having to impose his vision of the game, delivering results up to the club's standards, managing the egos of superstars like Ronaldinho, Deco, Eto'o etc, while being himself totally unproven as a manager. If that ain't adversity, I don't know what it is.Then he built on from there.
Different path but not any less challenging.
In my opinion we can’t give managers much credit for players technical skills at this level. The term technical coach is pretty irrelevant when talking about the high technical standard among City players (individually).
Want to make a reservation, because our interpretation of the term technical coach may differ