Maguire's Redemption

His redemption arc will be completed at the end of the season, when he will finally return to a club reflecting his level as a footballer. There, the good aspects of his game will prove useful in the long-term or even crucial on specific occasions while the momentary lapses of concentration, the bad reading of the game here and there, the dithering on the ball and the inability to defend wider spaces will be just parts of a midtable club's "imperfections" that everybody - besides Woodward who agreed to spent 80 odd million on him - treats as normal. He'll be a happy professional again.

The abuse should have never got personal, the internet (or, better, the social media) idiots can do one. The same goes for the level of abuse he got last summer when he asked for what every one else would have demanded: To be paid the entirety of his contract.

He will play well for us, especially when the game suits his strengths. That doesn't make him good enough, but at a club that's been making one bad decision after another and constantly relies on "heroes" to step up and carry the team over the line, sometimes you can't see beyond that. Similarly, amidst our defensive woes, some on here weren't able to think of better right-backs than AWB. Another one who returned to his true level.
 
Marwood said:
A lack of agility stopped Maguire clearing that first cross in the move. I'd guess De Ligt, with more youth on his side, could have smashed it away.
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Possibly but I suspect it was more a case of he was afraid he'd put it in his own goal
 
Red in STL said:
Possibly but I suspect it was more a case of he was afraid he'd put it in his own goal
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Yeah maybe. Probably the same thing really. A more agile player likely wouldn't have to worry about spamming it into his own net, could instread clear that quite comfortably.

Either way, time for ETH to drop this silly honour system where a player has to drop a clanger before getting dropped.

Just pick your best team. Simple.
 
pocco said:
Don't you think he was concerned he might put it in his own net? It's not uncommon that defenders let those crosses go.
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Red in STL said:
Possibly but I suspect it was more a case of he was afraid he'd put it in his own goal
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The 2 are connected. He's worried about putting it in his own net because he's aware of his lack of agility.

De Ligt put a ball out for a corner late in the 2nd half that could have worried him that he'd put it in his own net. He trusted his reaction times and nimbleness to not put it in his own net.
 
Wednesday at Stoke said:
You can’t let a ball whizz across your own goal if you can help it at any decent level. He lets that happen twice for that goal.
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The pass for Welbeck is disguised really well by Mitoma. That was hard to defend against. Plus Maguire was isolated at that point. I don't think there was much more he could've done.

The whipped ball probably could've been stopped but, maybe a fear of an own goal flashed before him or something. Or maybe a shout from Mazroui or Onana made him hesitate. I was a bad mistake but, maybe some varying factors were at play.
 
Marwood said:
Either way, time for ETH to drop this silly honour system where a player has to drop a clanger before getting dropped.
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I was preaching this after the Fulham game but his disciples on here insisted it's too mean to drop a player who's just had a good game.
 
baskinginthesun said:
The pass for Welbeck is disguised really well by Mitoma. That was hard to defend against. Plus Maguire was isolated at that point. I don't think there was much more he could've done.

The whipped ball probably could've been stopped but, maybe a fear of an own goal flashed before him or something. Or maybe a shout from Mazroui or Onana made him hesitate. I was a bad mistake but, maybe some varying factors were at play.
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No one gives a shout unless they are confident the keeper can either gather it or they can clear it. Maguire is a 31 year old center back and a leader in defense. He shouldn’t be taking directions on how to deal with a ball flashing across his own goal.
 
pocco said:
Somebody else was closing down the crosser, he was marking the mac stood right in front of him at the front post. Should he actually be marking two guys? Is that what you're saying? And closing down the cross?

EDIT just rewatched it and I'm right, Mazraoui closes down crosser, he steps across the guy at the front post, Welbeck unmarked. No argument to be made.
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Yeah, my bad, I forgot Mazraoui was there. I still think he's trying to do two things, which is why he's not actually close to the man hes marking and also let's the cross go past his foot.
 
Irwin99 said:
There's your answer as to why he's criticized, it's a mistake that caused a goal where we were fairly comfortable up until that point. I thought Maguire was clear MOTM against Fulham and thought he was the better of the two centre backs against Brighton (that's not much of a compliment though) but we've been here so many times before with the mistakes. Martinez has started the season pretty badly for me and deserves criticism too but Maguire is in his sixth season here with us. I can see why people get frustrated and it's obvious he's not part of the team's long-term future.
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The obvious different is that the criticism of Maguire was 100 times more compared to Martinez who made mistakes in Fulham game and made a worse mistake for Brighton second goal. He was nowhere to be seen at his position at 94th minute of the game defending deep in the box!
 
Yakuza_devils said:
The obvious different is that the criticism of Maguire was 100 times more compared to Martinez who made mistakes in Fulham game and made a worse mistake for Brighton second goal. He was nowhere to be seen at his position at 94th minute of the game defending deep in the box!
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I mean, this. Not to mention that Joao Pedro was able to waltz through our midfield with half hearted challenges from Bruno and Mainoo, casually lay off a pass to Minteh I think and then casually recieve it back before whipping in a cross. That ball shouldn't have been able to travel the distance it did if we weren't so static. But, let's have a go at Maguire (who admittedly should've done better).
 
Dominos said:
The 2 are connected. He's worried about putting it in his own net because he's aware of his lack of agility.

De Ligt put a ball out for a corner late in the 2nd half that could have worried him that he'd put it in his own net. He trusted his reaction times and nimbleness to not put it in his own net.
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You could argue he judged it right though, they didn't score and temporarily the threat was reduced. I find him hard to criticise for it, unless they had been there to tap it in after he left it. Mazraoui had a chance to defend the follow up, and then Welbeck was inexplicably free in the centre of the goal, but that's not Maguires issue at that point as he covered his man fine.
 
Lash said:
Yeah, my bad, I forgot Mazraoui was there. I still think he's trying to do two things, which is why he's not actually close to the man hes marking and also let's the cross go past his foot.
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Honestly, watch it again and I think you'll change your mind on that second phase. As Maguire steps across his man to cut off that pass (the correct decision too, for me), Mitoma passes the other side of him. I can't blame him there as he did his job. Whoever should have been picking up Welbeck there is the one to blame. We were disorganised and that was the issue with both goals for me.

It was great play by Mitoma though, you have to give credit where it's due. I'd argue that once that threat from the initial cross subsided, and Mazraoui stood up Mitoma, we should have had bodies bursting back into our box by that point. Feck knows where these covering midfielders were positioned, along with Martinez and Dalot, who should have moved forwards to pick up Welbeck and left any spare people at the back.

In fact, watch it back and watch Martinez, pathetic and lazy defending right there. He had a good view of the danger and picked out the closest (and least dangerous) man, instead of fecking Welbeck. On the re-watch, Martinez is the one to blame for me.
 
pocco said:
Honestly, watch it again and I think you'll change your mind on that second phase. As Maguire steps across his man to cut off that pass (the correct decision too, for me), Mitoma passes the other side of him. I can't blame him there as he did his job. Whoever should have been picking up Welbeck there is the one to blame. We were disorganised and that was the issue with both goals for me.

It was great play by Mitoma though, you have to give credit where it's due. I'd argue that once that threat from the initial cross subsided, and Mazraoui stood up Mitoma, we should have had bodies bursting back into our box by that point. Feck knows where these covering midfielders were positioned, along with Martinez and Dalot, who should have moved forwards to pick up Welbeck and left any spare people at the back.

In fact, watch it back and watch Martinez, pathetic and lazy defending right there. He had a good view of the danger and picked out the closest (and least dangerous) man, instead of fecking Welbeck. On the re-watch, Martinez is the one to blame for me.
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Yeah, perhaps I'm harsh on the second phase. I disagree it's the correct decision to do what he did though, because if he protects that "corridor of uncertainty" first and positions himself to cover the goal from the man he tries to cut off, even if Mitoma passes to that man, he should be able to cover the near post. He predicted the pass incorrectly and left a massive gap for Mitoma to play a straight pass into the 6 yard box. That being said, if Mitoma cuts it back, Maguire intercepts and it's a great bit of defending, so fine margins.

The original ball in was so poorly dealt with by him, so I think maybe that bad decision compounded it, hence me being harsh.
 
Lash said:
Yeah, perhaps I'm harsh on the second phase. I disagree it's the correct decision to do what he did though, because if he protects that "corridor of uncertainty" first and positions himself to cover the goal from the man he tries to cut off, even if Mitoma passes to that man, he should be able to cover the near post. He predicted the pass incorrectly and left a massive gap for Mitoma to play a straight pass into the 6 yard box. That being said, if Mitoma cuts it back, Maguire intercepts and it's a great bit of defending, so fine margins.

The original ball in was so poorly dealt with by him, so I think maybe that bad decision compounded it, hence me being harsh.
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What about the fact that Joao Pedro had free reign in our final 3rd to make that cross. Nobody got close to him and he was allowed all the time in the world to make that cross. You can be harsh on Maguire but, I'm of the opinion the entire team let him down beforehand and he should never have been in a position to make that decision.

Then to top it off, why didn't we flood the 6 yard box to stop the 2nd ball. You said it yourself thst Maguire probably intercepts it if Mitoma went for the cut back. It was lazy team defending compounded by a mistake by Maguire. But, Maguire gets all hate because it was the final ball.
 
baskinginthesun said:
What about the fact that Joao Pedro had free reign in our final 3rd to make that cross. Nobody got close to him and he was allowed all the time in the world to make that cross. You can be harsh on Maguire but, I'm of the opinion the entire team let him down beforehand and he should never have been in a position to make that decision.

Then to top it off, why didn't we flood the 6 yard box to stop the 2nd ball. You said it yourself thst Maguire probably intercepts it if Mitoma went for the cut back. It was lazy team defending compounded by a mistake by Maguire. But, Maguire gets all hate because it was the final ball.
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Well and he let the cross drop in the box than dealing with it for some bizarre reason. There's definitely a wider problem, but for a senior defender who's main strength is dealing with crosses like that, it was extremely poor from him.
 
Lash said:
Well and he let the cross drop in the box than dealing with it for some bizarre reason. There's definitely a wider problem, but for a senior defender who's main strength is dealing with crosses like that, it was extremely poor from him.
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I'm not denying Maguire is off the hook. That was clearly a bad decision. But, too many mistakes and errors happened further up the pitch and then not enough recovery to make up for Maguires mistake to stop the goal occurred as well. Systematically, we're still not secure as a defensive unit and the large individual errors are going to happen continuously until it gets sorted.
 
baskinginthesun said:
I'm not denying Maguire is off the hook. That was clearly a bad decision. But, too many mistakes and errors happened further up the pitch and then not enough recovery to make up for Maguires mistake to stop the goal occurred as well. Systematically, we're still not secure as a defensive unit and the large individual errors are going to happen continuously until it gets sorted.
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Very true. I see adding Ugarte would help us in these positions, as he'd never let a player have that much time.
 
pocco said:
It was great play by Mitoma though, you have to give credit where it's due. I'd argue that once that threat from the initial cross subsided, and Mazraoui stood up Mitoma, we should have had bodies bursting back into our box by that point. Feck knows where these covering midfielders were positioned, along with Martinez and Dalot, who should have moved forwards to pick up Welbeck and left any spare people at the back.
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I think that is the key here, as soon as Maguire missed the clearance everyone should be hurrying to get into covering positions and picking up men in the box. Shirking your defensive duties in that manner should be a criminal offence and get you chewed out by your captain/senior player/coach. Amad, Rashford, Mainoo and Casemiro were all way too passive in that sequence.

pocco said:
In fact, watch it back and watch Martinez, pathetic and lazy defending right there. He had a good view of the danger and picked out the closest (and least dangerous) man, instead of fecking Welbeck. On the re-watch, Martinez is the one to blame for me.
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Martinez made the wrong decision to not pick up Welbeck in front of the goal, but it was a split second of hesitation when he saw an unmarked player coming in behind him (which Rashford let go free into the box).

All in all a very preventable goal even after Maguires missed clearance if everyone took their defensive duties seriously.
 
Lash said:
Very true. I see adding Ugarte would help us in these positions, as he'd never let a player have that much time.
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Maybe. Defense is a team effort though. One individual isn't going to solve a systematic problem.
 
pocco said:
Honestly, watch it again and I think you'll change your mind on that second phase. As Maguire steps across his man to cut off that pass (the correct decision too, for me), Mitoma passes the other side of him. I can't blame him there as he did his job. Whoever should have been picking up Welbeck there is the one to blame. We were disorganised and that was the issue with both goals for me.

It was great play by Mitoma though, you have to give credit where it's due. I'd argue that once that threat from the initial cross subsided, and Mazraoui stood up Mitoma, we should have had bodies bursting back into our box by that point. Feck knows where these covering midfielders were positioned, along with Martinez and Dalot, who should have moved forwards to pick up Welbeck and left any spare people at the back.

In fact, watch it back and watch Martinez, pathetic and lazy defending right there. He had a good view of the danger and picked out the closest (and least dangerous) man, instead of fecking Welbeck. On the re-watch, Martinez is the one to blame for me.
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100%. Martinez has been making mistakes after mistakes in both Fulham and Brighton game but Maguire who is the better player have been criticized to such extend. I feel pity for him. He can do nothing right.

If the Brighton second goal come from Maguire position where he was supposed to cover and nowhere to be seen, this place would have exploded!
 
Yakuza_devils said:
100%. Martinez has been making mistakes after mistakes in both Fulham and Brighton game but Maguire who is the better player have been criticized to such extend. I feel pity for him. He can do nothing right.

If the Brighton second goal come from Maguire position where he was supposed to cover and nowhere to be seen, this place would have exploded!
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Martinez overall has made more mistakes than Maguire in the first two games. But I find it hard to blame Martinez for the first goal, he is the only one who sprints to get back to position. Its just that he ends with having to mark two players and chooses the wrong one. Overall the fault is more at Maguire missing the clearance, and then other players not getting back to help with the situation (except Martinez).
 
TheRedDevil'sAdvocate said:
His redemption arc will be completed at the end of the season, when he will finally return to a club reflecting his level as a footballer. There, the good aspects of his game will prove useful in the long-term or even crucial on specific occasions while the momentary lapses of concentration, the bad reading of the game here and there, the dithering on the ball and the inability to defend wider spaces will be just parts of a midtable club's "imperfections" that everybody - besides Woodward who agreed to spent 80 odd million on him - treats as normal. He'll be a happy professional again.

The abuse should have never got personal, the internet (or, better, the social media) idiots can do one. The same goes for the level of abuse he got last summer when he asked for what every one else would have demanded: To be paid the entirety of his contract.

He will play well for us, especially when the game suits his strengths. That doesn't make him good enough, but at a club that's been making one bad decision after another and constantly relies on "heroes" to step up and carry the team over the line, sometimes you can't see beyond that. Similarly, amidst our defensive woes, some on here weren't able to think of better right-backs than AWB. Another one who returned to his true level.
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"Inability to defend wider spaces" so we should sell De Ligt as well, I guess? And City should sell Rúben Dias? Newcastle should sell Botman? There are many top defenders who can't defend wide spaces. Seems like you're just buying into the agenda and social media narrative that Maguire is some mid-table player whilst most of the arguments made up against him are made up, not important, or just straight up untrue (like how he apparently can't play in a high line, for example).
 
Mavs said:
Martinez overall has made more mistakes than Maguire in the first two games. But I find it hard to blame Martinez for the first goal, he is the only one who sprints to get back to position. Its just that he ends with having to mark two players and chooses the wrong one. Overall the fault is more at Maguire missing the clearance, and then other players not getting back to help with the situation (except Martinez).
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Brighton's first goal there were many players made mistakes but only Maguire got the most blame.

Look at Amad, Casemiro, Mainoo and Martinez too.
 
Martinez has looked rusty, especially his passing. Maguire's response since losing the captaincy has been nothing less than admirable. Form has been good (barring a few mistakes) he should have dealt with Brighton's first at the weekend then given a bollocking to the players in front. I'd be happy with him as a decent 3/4th choice when Yoro is back. He still has his uses in this team.
 
TheRedDevil'sAdvocate said:
His redemption arc will be completed at the end of the season, when he will finally return to a club reflecting his level as a footballer. There, the good aspects of his game will prove useful in the long-term or even crucial on specific occasions while the momentary lapses of concentration, the bad reading of the game here and there, the dithering on the ball and the inability to defend wider spaces will be just parts of a midtable club's "imperfections" that everybody - besides Woodward who agreed to spent 80 odd million on him - treats as normal. He'll be a happy professional again.

The abuse should have never got personal, the internet (or, better, the social media) idiots can do one. The same goes for the level of abuse he got last summer when he asked for what every one else would have demanded: To be paid the entirety of his contract.

He will play well for us, especially when the game suits his strengths. That doesn't make him good enough, but at a club that's been making one bad decision after another and constantly relies on "heroes" to step up and carry the team over the line, sometimes you can't see beyond that. Similarly, amidst our defensive woes, some on here weren't able to think of better right-backs than AWB. Another one who returned to his true level.
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His price tag get talked about every single time he's being talked about in a conversation. I can't talk to any rival fan without them mentioning the 80m. Don't get me wrong, that price tag is crazy and not disagreeing that it should be mentioned but it's not his fault he was bought for that amount. It goes to show how out of touch and inexperienced the previous board was. Maguire is not a bad player, he's just not what a United player should be. Right now, he's useful. Should it be the case? No, but that's the cards we have.

AWB defensively is very good. Attacking, he doesn't have it. I think the biggest problem with criticising individuals is the player next to them (not all but too many) are either average or just not the right player that we fans expect. When you really think about it, how do we expect much success to happen? And I think INEOS are at least trying to resolve that problem by selling players and buying players. Some have no value to buying clubs (ie, Casemiro. Lost his legs, high wages, few more seasons left on his contract....no value). McTominay was an ideal sub to have but we had to sell him because he has a value (age, wages weren't drastically high etc).

When speaking about value, I think that's the problem with Maguire. We spent 80 something million (well Woodward did on behalf of United, I'm a few quid short of that :smirk:). How much would you be willing to sell him for? And how much would it cost to get a player that has similar qualities as him? Which begs the question, is it worth selling him? I'm not an economist, but I doubt its worth selling him. If he's worth 30m and would cost 30m to replace him, then what's the point. Hold onto him.
 
Rojofiam said:
"Inability to defend wider spaces" so we should sell De Ligt as well, I guess? And City should sell Rúben Dias? Newcastle should sell Botman? There are many top defenders who can't defend wide spaces. Seems like you're just buying into the agenda and social media narrative that Maguire is some mid-table player whilst most of the arguments made up against him are made up, not important, or just straight up untrue (like how he apparently can't play in a high line, for example).
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City defenders can defend wider spaces. Newcastle haven't achieved anything of notice yet. We'll see about De Ligt. At least, he seems to be better on the ball. You can believe that Maguire will sign for Real Madrid on a free next summer.


Garnacho Libre said:
His price tag get talked about every single time he's being talked about in a conversation. I can't talk to any rival fan without them mentioning the 80m. Don't get me wrong, that price tag is crazy and not disagreeing that it should be mentioned but it's not his fault he was bought for that amount. It goes to show how out of touch and inexperienced the previous board was. Maguire is not a bad player, he's just not what a United player should be. Right now, he's useful. Should it be the case? No, but that's the cards we have.

AWB defensively is very good. Attacking, he doesn't have it. I think the biggest problem with criticising individuals is the player next to them (not all but too many) are either average or just not the right player that we fans expect. When you really think about it, how do we expect much success to happen? And I think INEOS are at least trying to resolve that problem by selling players and buying players. Some have no value to buying clubs (ie, Casemiro. Lost his legs, high wages, few more seasons left on his contract....no value). McTominay was an ideal sub to have but we had to sell him because he has a value (age, wages weren't drastically high etc).

When speaking about value, I think that's the problem with Maguire. We spent 80 something million (well Woodward did on behalf of United, I'm a few quid short of that :smirk:). How much would you be willing to sell him for? And how much would it cost to get a player that has similar qualities as him? Which begs the question, is it worth selling him? I'm not an economist, but I doubt its worth selling him. If he's worth 30m and would cost 30m to replace him, then what's the point. Hold onto him.
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The price tag did play a huge part in him getting ridiculed and becoming a meme which was unfair. It was United's blunder, not the player's.

The thing is United spent 50 odd million on a right-back who never really proved to be an upgrade on the two makeshift full-backs he was brought in to replace (Valencia and Young). The squad is full of suck players: One or two decent qualities that can be put to good use when the situation demands it, but when it comes to building a cohesive unit able to play a more proactive game at a higher tempo, they all seem to struggle. Same with McT: "He scores goals with late runs in the box", "he's a super sub" etc. That's all well and fine, but can you please show me another big side that regularly fields on the pitch a midfielder like him (afraid of the ball), running only in straight lines?
 
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Yakuza_devils said:
Brighton's first goal there were many players made mistakes but only Maguire got the most blame.

Look at Amad, Casemiro, Mainoo and Martinez too.
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Yeah Amad, Casemiro, Mainoo should hall have reacted better and I would also add Rashford to that list. None of them showed enough awareness or effort to track runners into the box. But I can't put Martinez in that list because he actually is the only one who sprints back and gets into position. He reached Welbeck but saw another unmarked player (because no other United players followed them), and dropped back to cover him. Wrong choice but it was made in a moment of chaos and I can't blame him too much.

Maguire should get the most blame for not dealing with the initial cross. But I agree that the criticism he has been getting has been way over the top, he has been our best defender so far in the season.
 
TheRedDevil'sAdvocate said:
City defenders can defend wider spaces. Newcastle haven't achieved anything of notice yet. We'll see about De Ligt. At least, he seems to be better on the ball. You can believe that Maguire will sign for Real Madrid on a free next summer.
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Incredible arguments regarding both Dias and Botman :lol:
 
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