Madrid's deliberate red cards

I've never understood why picking up deliberate bookings/reds is a problem.

It might be somewhat unsporting but it's not like the game is a beacon of fair play at the moment.
 
R_Nick said:
It's bloody stupid. Break the rules and you get X punishment, but break those exact same rules on purpose and you'll get a stronger punishment because, well erm, because we said!
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Isn't the deliberate act the difference between manslaughter and murder? Not saying that I want to compare getting a yellow card with murder, but in the judicial system there's a distinction between killing someone if you planned it beforehand.
 
phelans shorts said:
Madrid got banned, the relevant bans for the yellows.

UEFA should butt out really.
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SmashedHombre said:
I think it's the other way round isn't it? I'm confused
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Madrid players were banned for the game they engineered themselves to be banned from, and then not punished further, now UEFA are supposedly going to ban a Barcelona player from the game AFTER the game he engineered himself to be banned from, which coincidentally happens to be against Madrid.

and United think the FA have agendas.


Brophs said:
I've never understood why picking up deliberate bookings/reds is a problem.

It might be somewhat unsporting but it's not like the game is a beacon of fair play at the moment.
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Because it's a blatant abuse and disrespect of the rules, and if we're getting to the stage of actually defending people for deliberately cheating or being unsporting, what's the point?
 
Makki said:
Isn't the deliberate act the difference between manslaughter and murder? Not saying that I want to compare getting a yellow card with murder, but in the judicial system there's a distinction between killing someone if you planned it beforehand.
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The difference there is that there is a law specifying the difference between intent.

Until the football rulebook contains a subsection on deliberately getting booked they shouldn't be moaning about it.
 
noodlehair said:
Because it's a blatant abuse and disrespect of the rules, and if we're getting to the stage of actually defending people for deliberately cheating or being unsporting, what's the point?
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I'm clearly not defending them, I'm just saying that the offence they've committed is one for which they've been punished. Why punish them more? Is trying to gain this advantage any worse than a player diving? After all, both are attempting to take advantage. The difference being if you dive you are punished by a yellow card. Wouldn't it be daft if they then decided to give him another yellow after the game because he was trying to gain an advantage?
 
Makki said:
If unsporting behaviour isn't a problem, why do people condemn diving, feigning injury, being a general twat and suchlike? They're just "somewhat unsporting", as Brophs put it.
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There are rules against simulation, as it stands there is no rule that I'm aware of that says you will not intentionally commit a bookable offence.
 
I fear we are entering no mans land here. Everytime a player will get a card rulling him out of a meaningless next match he'll automatically become a prime suspect. And even though some of those cases look pretty clear - like Iniesta in that video - it's near impossible to prove. And I don't think you should BAN a player unless you can 100% prove it.
 
noodlehair said:
Madrid players were banned for the game they engineered themselves to be banned from, and then not punished further, now UEFA are supposedly going to ban a Barcelona player from the game AFTER the game he engineered himself to be banned from, which coincidentally happens to be against Madrid.

and United think the FA have agendas.
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Is that really going to happen?

fecking hell, that's disgraceful.
 
Did UEFA make it clear they would be punishing this sort of thing more severely in future when they punished Madrid?
 
noodlehair said:
Madrid players were banned for the game they engineered themselves to be banned from, and then not punished further, now UEFA are supposedly going to ban a Barcelona player from the game AFTER the game he engineered himself to be banned from, which coincidentally happens to be against Madrid.
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Please explain?
 
Am I the only one who thinks that if it's obvious what he did(I haven't seen the incident)in ensuring his availability for the Madrid game, he should be punished by not being allowed to play the game he effectively cheated to ensure he appeared in?

I don't see how that's wrong to be honest. I find Barca continuosly getting their opponents shafted with 10 men a more concerning feature of the refereeing fraternity. They are far too keen to cave in to their shithouse tactics.
 
WireRed said:
Am I the only one who thinks that if it's obvious what he did(I haven't seen the incident)in ensuring his availability for the Madrid game, he should be punished by not being allowed to play the game he effectively cheated to ensure he appeared in?
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Yep. If anything, that should be the punishment. Not ban a player from a second match, but just decide the ban takes place in the match eh was so desperate not to miss.
 
noodlehair said:
Madrid players were banned for the game they engineered themselves to be banned from, and then not punished further, now UEFA are supposedly going to ban a Barcelona player from the game AFTER the game he engineered himself to be banned from, which coincidentally happens to be against Madrid.
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:lol:

The feck?

That's quite crazy if true.
 
phelans shorts said:
What's wrong with it, seriously it's not like they can prove a yellow was intentional is it?
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To be fair, some cases are just blindingly obvious like the Madrid one and Barca again against Villarreal. Of course, the parties involved can plead innocence and get off on a technicality, but when it's so blindingly obvious, the camara is enough evidence to charge someone I'd have thought.
 
WireRed said:
To be fair, some cases are just blindingly obvious like the Madrid one and Barca again against Villarreal. Of course, the parties involved can plead innocence and get off on a technicality, but when it's so blindingly obvious, the camara is enough evidence to charge someone I'd have thought.
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Can they prove that he was booked to intentionally miss a game rather than just your normal run of the mill time wasting though?

It's such a legal no mans land they can't do anything.
 
phelans shorts said:
Can they prove that he was booked to intentionally miss a game rather than just your normal run of the mill time wasting though?

It's such a legal no mans land they can't do anything.
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I know what you are getting at, but in the cases of Madrid and Barca 1st time, the circumstancial evidence was enough to charge. I don't know about the latest one because I've not seen it.

The legal eagles and players themselves can use all the semantics they like, fact is, you don't need a weather man to tell you when it's pissing down. When it's so obvious, they are right to put them in the dock.
 
WireRed said:
I know what you are getting at, but in the cases of Madrid and Barca 1st time, the circumstancial evidence was enough to charge. I don't know about the latest one because I've not seen it.

The legal eagles and players themselves can use all the semantics they like, fact is, you don't need a weather man to tell you when it's pissing down. When it's so obvious, they are right to put them in the dock.
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All there is any proof at all of is that they were wasting time, hardly worthy of an extended ban.
 
phelans shorts said:
Can they prove that he was booked to intentionally miss a game rather than just your normal run of the mill time wasting though?

It's such a legal no mans land they can't do anything.
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Every time a penalty is awarded for a hand-ball it has to be intentional in order to be punished. I've yet to see any club amount a legal challenge insisting the authorities 'prove' intent.

Nothing needs to be proved here. They just need a balance of probabilities.
 
WireRed said:
Am I the only one who thinks that if it's obvious what he did(I haven't seen the incident)in ensuring his availability for the Madrid game, he should be punished by not being allowed to play the game he effectively cheated to ensure he appeared in?

I don't see how that's wrong to be honest. I find Barca continuosly getting their opponents shafted with 10 men a more concerning feature of the refereeing fraternity. They are far too keen to cave in to their shithouse tactics.
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Amir said:
Yep. If anything, that should be the punishment. Not ban a player from a second match, but just decide the ban takes place in the match eh was so desperate not to miss.
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Fine and I agree, but then why is it ok for Real Madrid players to do it but not Barcelona ones?
 
For the sake of balance it should be added that Madrid did get a ban, but it was given to Mourinho who so very obviously "orchestrated" the farce. The players received fines.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Every time a penalty is awarded for a hand-ball it has to be intentional in order to be punished.
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Not really. If it took an intentional handball in order to award a penalty, there would barely be any penalties for handball. The hand to be extended though, thus the defending player making a use of it - not neccesary by intention - in deflecting or stopping the ball while using space he wouldn't normally fill by any part of his body.
 
Amir said:
Not really. If it took an intentional handball in order to award a penalty, there would barely be any penalties for handball. The hand to be extended though, thus the defending player making a use of it - not neccesary by intention - in deflecting or stopping the ball while using space he wouldn't normally fill by any part of his body.
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Christ on a bike, how many times are people going to misinterpret this simple rule? The ball must be deliberately played with the hand for a free-kick/pen to be awarded. This is black and white. No ambiguity at all. All the stuff about positioning of arms is just guidance intended to help the referee distinguish between deliberate and accidental handling of the ball.

Getting back on topic, my point was that there are numerous examples within the laws of the game where intent is essential in order for a player to be punished. Without introducing lie-detectors or psychics, this intent is usually established through the application of common sense. Which is what happened with the deliberate bookings being discussed in this thread.

Where common sense is completely absent is the decision to punish Barca more severely than Madrid for committing the same crime in the same competition. Absolutely disgraceful display of bias by UEFA.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Christ on a bike, how many times are people going to misinterpret this simple rule? The ball must be deliberately played with the hand for a free-kick/pen to be awarded. This is black and white. No ambiguity at all. All the stuff about positioning of arms is just guidance intended to help the referee distinguish between deliberate and accidental handling of the ball.

Getting back on topic, my point was that there are numerous examples within the laws of the game where intent is essential in order for a player to be punished. Without introducing lie-detectors or psychics, this intent is usually established through the application of common sense. Which is what happened with the deliberate bookings being discussed in this thread.

Where common sense is completely absent is the decision to punish Barca more severely than Madrid for committing the same crime in the same competition. Absolutely disgraceful display of bias by UEFA.
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As it stands Madrid have actually been treated more severely, Iniesta will get a fine and everything will be fine as there is consistency, for it to be equal there needs to be a fine and a bam for Pep though.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Christ on a bike, how many times are people going to misinterpret this simple rule? The ball must be deliberately played with the hand for a free-kick/pen to be awarded. This is black and white. No ambiguity at all. All the stuff about positioning of arms is just guidance intended to help the referee distinguish between deliberate and accidental handling of the ball.

Getting back on topic, my point was that there are numerous examples within the laws of the game where intent is essential in order for a player to be punished. Without introducing lie-detectors or psychics, this intent is usually established through the application of common sense. Which is what happened with the deliberate bookings being discussed in this thread.

Where common sense is completely absent is the decision to punish Barca more severely than Madrid for committing the same crime in the same competition. Absolutely disgraceful display of bias by UEFA.
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In the first instance Madrid's players were handed the same penalty as is being speculated Iniesta will receive here, were they not? It was only reduced on appeal, so we don't yet know if there is any difference in the way the cases are being treated.

phelans shorts said:
As it stands Madrid have actually been treated more severely, Iniesta will get a fine and everything will be fine as there is consistency, for it to be equal there needs to be a fine and a bam for Pep though.
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I'd think you'd refrain from predicting the extent of player's bans ;)
 
phelans shorts said:
As it stands Madrid have actually been treated more severely, Iniesta will get a fine and everything will be fine as there is consistency, for it to be equal there needs to be a fine and a bam for Pep though.
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I actually can't remember the specifics of the Madrid case, only the outcome.

Were their players given a ban, reduced to a fine on appeal?
 
phelans shorts said:
I think so, everything was reduced from length of Mourinho's ban to the players getting a fine, it may have just been a reduced fine though.
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Just done some digging. The first mention of any punishment in this thread was just fines. No mention of a ban at any point.

I'm fairly sure these fines were reduced at a later date, presumably on appeal.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Just done some digging. The first mention of any punishment in this thread was just fines. No mention of a ban at any point.

I'm fairly sure these fines were reduced at a later date, presumably on appeal.
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Yeah, Jose was given a ban for it though with another 2 suspended, will be interesting to see if Pep gets the same.
 
phelans shorts said:
Yeah, Jose was given a ban for it though with another 2 suspended, will be interesting to see if Pep gets the same.
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So the Madrid players never got an additional ban. Clear evidence of UEFA not being even-handed.

As for Guardiola, would he get the same punishment as Mourinho? He wasn't stupid enough to be caught on camera passing whispered instructions on to the players concerned.

As you well know, getting caught doing stuff on camera tends to increase the likelihood of a ban :smirk:
 
Madrid players were never banned. It was a fine to begin with and they appealed that. Mourinho was banned because he was caught on camera telling the players to get carded.

I'm not sure how you can carry that as consistent with Iniesta unless he was caught on camera telling himself to go and get himself booked.
 
The problem here is if Uefa had been clear that deliberate yellow cards only carry a fine, then I'm sure Madrid would have had Ronaldo, Carvalho & co booked towards the end of the Spurs 1st leg, do they care about the fine?

Uefa made a big deal out of those Madrid cards and kind of implied that future offenders will be dealt with more severely.
 
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