Madeleine McCann

[Wibble]

I don't think anyone has come up with any sort of wild theory about what's gone on. If they have I haven't seen it. Even out of those that have offered possible other scenarios, most have said that they don't think that's what actually happened.

So why are so many people invested in the McCanns being the villains of the piece?

Congratulations on raising your son. I don't know what this has to do with anything but give yourself a big pat on the back regardless.

Miss the point much?

I don't get how you can acknowledge that it's something you wouldn't do, then say "ah well it was just a mistake" when someone else did it. Their decision to leave the kids alone night after night was extremely selfish, and in all likelihood was a contributing factor in Madeleine's disappearance.

Selfish? Possibly. But what has that got to do with someone kidnapping their child?

There is a massive difference between letting a 13 year old get a train alone between two locations he's familiar with or letting an 8 year old ride a bike around the block, and leaving three children, aged 3 and under, alone, in an unlocked holiday apartment, night after night, for hours on end each night. Yes you'd feel shit if something happened to your son while he was out on his bike or on a train, or even walking back from school, but they are all perfectly normal and usually perfectly safe things for someone of that age to be doing. There is literally nothing that is safe about leaving a 3 year old and her two younger siblings alone in an unlocked holiday apartment. Unless you've left your 3 year old son alone, at night, in an unlocked room/apartment/house, while you went off wining and dining for hours on end, then you might be subject to the same level of criticism, but as you've said you would never do that, I imagine you wouldn't do anything remotely similar either.

I think that you and others are judging the McCann's very harshly for what was in fact a very low risk behavior. The horrific outcome not withstanding.

You seem far more concerned that people are having a go at your own parenting ability

Huh? Are you on drugs?

than with actually fully acknowledging that leaving three toddlers alone for 5 consecutive nights is an example of really bad parenting. I don't think there's been any bile aimed at the McCanns, just heavy and warranted criticism of a particular parenting decision they had made. No one would say it to them in person because everyone realises that they've suffered enough. That doesn't change the fact that what they did was shit parenting regardless of whether Madeleine had been taken or not

So why so much bile directed at them but no outrage directed at the actual criminals who took her?

I don't think they did it, but others (very few on here I might add) might think they did. What part of 'unsolved' did you not understand? We don't know who did it, so my point about people thinking they were involved literally stands for those people. If they have reasons for thinking the McCanns were involved, and they are yet to be refuted, then surely that means their opinion will remain the same? There is also the fact that barely anyone in here genuinely believes they were involved in any way, and those that do can probably be rightfully written off as conspiracy nuts. Most of the persecution in here is aimed at their parenting, not at them as potential murderers.

This is the bit I really don't get. If most people don't think they had anything to do with the crime why are they being attacked so much and not supported and sympathised with as the victims of crime?

It is standard procedure in many countries, including the UK, to make the parents suspects in cases like this. They make them suspects so they can either rule them out or find out what has really gone on. Stranger abductions are extremely rare, and at the time there appeared to be some form of evidence pointing towards Madeleine being dead. Have you seen the list of questions she was asked? Most are completely innocuous or related to other matters. She wasn't sat there with question after question centering on "DID YOU KILL HER?". Regardless of Kate's conduct when interviewed by police, it was still extremely odd that not one of the McCanns or their friends helped with the physical search, it was extremely odd that Kate left the twins alone again, it was extremely odd that they decided to put the twins back into the hotel creche after the disappearance, and it was extremely odd that they were so insistent that she had been kidnapped by someone who had broken in through the window only to change their story to leaving the door unlocked.

It is perfectly reasonable to examine them as suspects initially but once they have been excluded as suspects the public witch hunt is simply bizarre.

I don't know how you can say that they had nothing to do with the crime when it seems highly likely that their decision to leave three very young children aged 3 and under alone on consecutive nights while they fecked off down the road and out of sight to eat tapas and drink wine was very much a contributing factor. Not only did they leave them alone, they left them alone in an unlocked apartment. I'm assuming you're being deliberately thick here because I made it clear that the excuses were being made for their parenting, something that would have been just as bad if nothing had happened to Madeleine. Saying that their parenting was bad and probably contributed to the abduction does not mean that I, or anyone else, think that the abductor is in any way resolved of complete blame for this crime. The crime is terrible, the criminal is a horrible, horrible person. This is all a given, and does not need to be discussed or tacked on to every post for people to believe this.

Yet it takes many many posts before we even talk about who is to blame. And even then you are still saying "Rapists are terrible but she was asking for it your honor".

Like I said earlier, your defence of the parenting seems to stem from some sort of weird personal offence you've taken at people saying it was bad.

No. Stop trying to justify your views by inventing my motivations.

No one thinks that you're a bad parent, and I've not seen one example of parenting decisions in this thread that come remotely close to what the McCanns did. There's literally no point arguing this with you anymore because you're obviously never going to grasp/continue to ignore the fact that what they did was shit parenting regardless of the outcome, people do not think that what happened is any less horrific because they think the McCanns are bad parents, and the abductor is and will always be 100% to blame for abducting Madeleine.

I neither think that anyone thinks I'm a bad parent nor care if they do. I don't think that what they did was so bad as to qualify as shit parenting but even if I did I think it is irrelevant to the crime. Utterly irrelevant. Perhaps we should also victimise the parents of April Jones for allowing such a young child with a disability out unsupervised. Or perhaps we should blame Mark Bridger?

I made a point in my last post saying that this debate would have ended long ago if people would stop making excuses for them. You've just made excuses for them and look where we are.

Yes. We should just carry on kicking them when they are down.

 

[Wibble]

People are 'attacking' them so much because cretins like you keep inferring that what they did wasn't that bad. Remove the abduction from the equation and it's still extremely shit parenting. This is what 99% of this thread has been about but for some reason you seem to think that saying they were selfish and bad parents on that holiday is the same as placing the entire blame for the crime at their feet.

So they deserved it because I dare to sympathise with them? Except you claim that blaming them for the crime isn't blaming them. Excellent reasoning I don't think.

 

[Alex99]

very low risk behavior

I'm not even going to bother replying to most of that. You've just described leaving three children aged 3 years old and younger, alone for five consecutive nights, in an unlocked holiday apartment, while the parents are off wining and dining a few hundred yards away completely out of sight, as 'very low risk behaviour'. In what fecking universe is that at all low risk? I'd say that's extremely high risk behaviour. They could open the unlocked door and wander off, they could climb on something fall off and hurt themselves, they could go and eat or drink something they shouldn't or choke on something else, they could knock something heavy over and it land on them, or in very extreme circumstances, someone could come in and take them. There are all manner of risks to leaving three children of any age alone in an unlocked holiday apartment while you feck off down the road to eat tapas and drink wine, even more so when the oldest of them is only 3 years old.

So they deserved it because I dare to sympathise with them? Except you claim that blaming them for the crime isn't blaming them. Excellent reasoning I don't think.

And no, they don't deserve to be attacked because you sympathise with them, I wouldn't even say they've been attacked at all. They've been criticised for what was terrible parenting practice. What I meant by that was that there would have been far less discussion about it if there weren't people like you going around saying what they did was in fact perfectly acceptable and 'very low risk'. There would have been a few comments where people would have expressed that they thought their parenting was shit, rather than the repeated scrutiny that has come about through your weird defence of it.

I don't know how you've managed to conclude that I'm blaming them for the crime when I've expressed explicitly, on multiple occasions, that they are not in any way to blame for the crime, and all blame for the abduction lies fully with the abductor. You can't argue against something that I didn't say and then make out like you've achieved some sort of logical and moral victory. I said 99% of the thread has revolved around their parenting decisions, in which people have said they are to blame for bad parenting. I understood 'the crime' to be the abduction. Either you're now claiming that their bad parenting was criminally bad, or you're deliberately misrepresenting what I've said in order to try and make your argument look stronger.

I don't know how many times it needs repeating, but the abductor being a terrible human being, the crime being a horrific tragedy, and the McCanns suffering from said tragedy are all given. They do not need to be discussed because there's nothing to be discussed. We can't have post after post in which people state that they think the abductor is a despicable person and that it's horrible what happened. We all know that and it doesn't need to be reinforced in every post. As for sympathy for the parents, whilst the crime is no less severe as time has gone on, there is only so long people can hold sympathy for a couple of complete strangers for. I am sympathetic to the fact that they lost their child, as I'm sure many others are. This does not change the fact that I think they acted out of extreme selfishness when doing what they did on that holiday.

 

[swooshboy]

Selfish? Possibly. But what has that got to do with someone kidnapping their child?


I think that you and others are judging the McCann's very harshly for what was in fact a very low risk behavior. The horrific outcome not withstanding.


Yes. We should just carry on kicking them when they are down.

Selfish definitely. They put their interests before the well being of their children. Simple as that.

What does them leaving their children alone have to do with them being kidnapped?

I would hazzard a guess that they were more likely to be kidnapped if they were left alone, than if the parents were in the apartment with them.

Would you dispute that? I guess you would, as you seem unable to grasp the fairly simple connection between those two factors.

I really don't care if you think I am judging the McCann's harshly or not. In my mind, they were negligent in their parenting duties. That does not mean that I subsequently believe they got what they deserved or anything like that.

You keep calling anyone who does not adhere to your views on what happened a conspiracy nut. I don't know if Madeline was abducted - but it is not fact that she was. You may think it is the most likely, but I am not convinced of the evidence that supports this theory - and that is all it is.

The abduction hypothesis was one that was raised by Kate McCann the second she saw that Madeline was not in her bed, and since then it has been the one that they are running with.

Based on the various inconsistencies, changes in stories, behaviours, I have not discounted the fact that something else might have happened.

 

[Red Defence]

You're right, we're getting sidetracked here. We need to be spending our time investigating!

So, who here has a decent lead? We need to get the old detail back together and work on getting a solid wire.

Eyepopper, get yourself over to Portugal and do some digging. Doc Dwayne, I want eyes on the McCanns; they're giving the appearance of having gone straight, but they're keeping something from us and I want to know just what that something is - you're my eyes and ears out there. Irwin, you're my guy, I need you in shop; keep things ticking over here whilst I go speak to the district attorney and see if I can't get us some better equipment - we'll never get anything done with all this fecking cold war junk!

Come on! Get to work, lads, we'll have this case cracked if it kills us!

Would certainly be more use than going on and on and on about how the McCann's shouldn't have left their children alone. Maybe they shouldn't but I'm sure they and the rest of the world know that now. In fact we've all known for the last 6 years haven't we.

 

[alastair]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[alastair]

Not to make light of this, but he looks remarkably like Samuel Eto'o

 

[SteveJ]

Still, at least the Mirror's wearing a red poppy, chief.

 

[Brophs]

Good to see the Mirror are bringing us the Lisa Riley sex gossip as and when it happens.

 

[Jippy]

The latest bloke to lose his wristwatch up there.

 

[Stanley Road]

There's an amazing likeness between the suspect and the photofits released recently

 

[swooshboy]

There's an amazing likeness between the suspect and the photofits released recently

Almost uncanny...

 

[Sarni]

This is the guy who died 4 years ago anyway, isn't it? Not much of a chance of coming to a conclusion with this case, it's easy to blame someone who can't defend himself.

 

[fishfingers15]

So why are so many people invested in the McCanns being the villains of the piece?



Miss the point much?



Selfish? Possibly. But what has that got to do with someone kidnapping their child?



I think that you and others are judging the McCann's very harshly for what was in fact a very low risk behavior. The horrific outcome not withstanding.



Huh? Are you on drugs?



So why so much bile directed at them but no outrage directed at the actual criminals who took her?



This is the bit I really don't get. If most people don't think they had anything to do with the crime why are they being attacked so much and not supported and sympathised with as the victims of crime?



It is perfectly reasonable to examine them as suspects initially but once they have been excluded as suspects the public witch hunt is simply bizarre.



Yet it takes many many posts before we even talk about who is to blame. And even then you are still saying "Rapists are terrible but she was asking for it your honor".



No. Stop trying to justify your views by inventing my motivations.



I neither think that anyone thinks I'm a bad parent nor care if they do. I don't think that what they did was so bad as to qualify as shit parenting but even if I did I think it is irrelevant to the crime. Utterly irrelevant. Perhaps we should also victimise the parents of April Jones for allowing such a young child with a disability out unsupervised. Or perhaps we should blame Mark Bridger?



Yes. We should just carry on kicking them when they are down.

For the record, it's a tragedy that Madeleine has been kidnapped and her parents are going through this kidnapping for awhile and probably regretting the fact that they weren't with her on that fateful day. I fully empathise with them on their plight, but it's seriously bad parenting leaving three young kids unattended all by themselves. It doesn't have to be a kidnapping at all, they could choked and died and the Mccann's may be facing charges by the police. I hope and wish they find their peace. I do not agree that it's 'low risk behaviour' Wibble.

 

[Jippy]

Almost uncanny...

Gerry un-McCann-y

 

[Plugsy]

Reading last few pages of the thread, it's surprising how many times I've seen mentioned defending leaving three infant children alone, in a foreign country, in a hotel complex, while you bugger off down the road for wine and tapas - against accusations of it being wholly and dangerously irresponsible. There are any number of things that could have happened. After all she was only asleep not drugged (or so we claim). The idea that you leave a 3 year old child alone (essentially) in the apartment who could wake up at any time and do herself any number of mischief, is mind-boggling for two supposedly educated people.

Unless, given how they both knew she was screaming the night before when she told them at breakfast - they sedated her. It would make sense in a way, as you'd at least have the peace of mind to know she wouldn't wake up again and you wouldn't be inconvenienced with having to change your plans. But I think the sedation has been denied, hasn't it? So they did just go out and leave a small child alone in a hotel complex in a foreign country, who they knew woke up the night before and became upset when they weren't there. Not sure if that's better or worse than owning up to the sedation story.

 

[Red Defence]

Reading last few pages of the thread, it's surprising how many times I've seen mentioned defending leaving three infant children alone, in a foreign country, in a hotel complex, while you bugger off down the road for wine and tapas - against accusations of it being wholly and dangerously irresponsible. There are any number of things that could have happened. After all she was only asleep not drugged (or so we claim). The idea that you leave a 3 year old child alone (essentially) in the apartment who could wake up at any time and do herself any number of mischief, is mind-boggling for two supposedly educated people.

Unless, given how they both knew she was screaming the night before when she told them at breakfast - they sedated her. It would make sense in a way, as you'd at least have the peace of mind to know she wouldn't wake up again and you wouldn't be inconvenienced with having to change your plans. But I think the sedation has been denied, hasn't it? So they did just go out and leave a small child alone in a hotel complex in a foreign country, who they knew woke up the night before and became upset when they weren't there. Not sure if that's better or worse than owning up to the sedation story.

Think about it. If they'd sedated her then the group wouldn't have needed to make regular checks on the children would they.

A lot of these hypothetical scenarios came initially from the Portugese detectives who were desperate to solve the case (nice bit of promotion for them) and take the eyes of the world off their profitable tourist locations.

 

[Plugsy]

Think about it. If they'd sedated her then the group wouldn't have needed to make regular checks on the children would they.

A lot of these hypothetical scenarios came initially from the Portugese detectives who were desperate to solve the case (nice bit of promotion for them) and take the eyes of the world off their profitable tourist locations.

Why would the Portuguese police need promotion, do they have an album out or something?

The story is that despite knowing that their 3 year old woke up crying and upset the night before they still decided to leave her, on her own, in the apartment complex and check on her every 30-60 minutes (the stories of the people at the restaurant vary and have changed). That's despicable. At least if she was sedated the defence could have been they knew she would not wake up. But to know she woke up the night before crying and they still thought "feck it, let's go out anyway" - if that was a working class mother on holiday in Lanzarote who popped back every now and then to check on their 3 year old they would at the very, very least be absolutely slaughtered by the media for being irresponsible parents.

"Welfare mum left snatched tot alone in hotel" - would read the Daily Mail headline. Or a pitier variation of.

 

[Red Defence]

Why would the Portuguese police need promotion, do they have an album out or something?

The story is that despite knowing that their 3 year old woke up crying and upset the night before they still decided to leave her, on her own, in the apartment complex and check on her every 30-60 minutes (the stories of the people at the restaurant vary and have changed). That's despicable. At least if she was sedated the defence could have been they knew she would not wake up. But to know she woke up the night before crying and they still thought "feck it, let's go out anyway" - if that was a working class mother on holiday in Lanzarote who popped back every now and then to check on their 3 year old they would at the very, very least be absolutely slaughtered by the media for being irresponsible parents.

"Welfare mum left snatched tot alone in hotel" - would read the Daily Mail headline. Or a pitier variation of.

I know the story, as, I'm sure, does everyone else by now.

 

[Shark]

BBC report that police are looking for a lone, dark haired intruder who had abused girls in Portugal before Maddie disappeared. At last a break through ..they've as good as got him now, how many tanned dark haired men can there be in Portugal?

 

[Stanley Road]

BBC report that police are looking for a lone, dark haired intruder who had abused girls in Portugal before Maddie disappeared. At last a break through ..they've as good as got him now, how many tanned dark haired men can there be in Portugal?

Yeah but this particular dark haired man was "sometimes bare-chested"

Unlike any of the dark haired men going to and from the beach in 30 degree heat, they were all wearing bomber jackets

 

[Scrumpet]

She's on the plane.

 

[swooshboy]

New update:

http://news.sky.com/story/1273546/madeleine-police-set-to-dig-as-area-sealed-off

Police searching for Madeleine McCann have sealed off an area in Praia da Luz, where they are expected to begin digging.

It marks a significant new phase of the investigation into her disappearance while she was on holiday with her family in the Portuguese resort in May 2007.

Several parts of the town have been identified as potential search sites including an area of scrubland close to the apartment where the McCanns had been staying.

The land which had been earmarked for development is now fenced off but was an open area on the night of Madeleine's disappearance.

Her parents Kate and Gerry McCann have not travelled to Portugal but will be kept up to date with any developments.

British expat residents in Praia da Luz confirmed to Sky News that they had recently seen a military aircraft flying for long periods possibly conducting aerial reconnaissance.

Former Metropolitan Police search adviser Keith Farquharson told Sky News: "They wouldn't just be identifying that part by plucking it out of thin air they have obviously got hard information and the evidence trail is leading to that particular area."

Mr Farquharson explained what is likely to happen next: "The area will be properly mapped with GPS coordinates for each one of those sites.

"Those areas will then be broken into smaller areas which will be easier to search, then you would send in the ground penetrating radar which will look for anomalies below the surface.

"Once those anomalies are identified then in my experience you would deploy victim recovery dogs to those particular areas."

As they are working alongside the Portuguese authorities the Metropolitan Police are giving out very few details about the new phase of the investigation or how long it will last.

 

[Ducklegs]

Is there anybody out there who still has any interest in is case?

 

[Steven Seagull]

Her parents?

 

[Ducklegs]

Her parents?

You know what I mean.

 

[swooshboy]

You know what I mean.

I think there will be if the police find any remains.

 

[Jippy]

Still baffles me that 'new' evidence keeps cropping up seven years down the line.

 

[Pexbo]

Her parents?

As we still can't rule them out as suspects, could you imagine if the body was found and tests confirm she died from an overdose that the parents were accused of?

I mean, these are people who have accepted millions in charity aid, played the victim for all these years and even written a book about it. They'd be public enemy number 1.

 

[swooshboy]

Just read this on Sky News - are journalists really this piss poor at writing?

http://news.sky.com/story/1274175/madeleine-mccann-police-bring-in-sniffer-dogs

It includes lines such as the following nuggets:

"One of the handlers from South Wales Police was heard shouting instructions to the dogs in Welsh."

"Officers used blue and white police tape to divide the land into sectors for the search."

"The hot and predominantly dry climate on the Algarve, where temperatures regularly top 30C, mean the ground will be far drier than in northern Europe."

Insightful stuff.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

Sounds like it was written by Dan Brown.

 

[Ryan's Beard]

Sounds like it was written by Dan Brown.

 

[Jippy]

Just read this on Sky News - are journalists really this piss poor at writing?

http://news.sky.com/story/1274175/madeleine-mccann-police-bring-in-sniffer-dogs

It includes lines such as the following nuggets:

"One of the handlers from South Wales Police was heard shouting instructions to the dogs in Welsh."

"Officers used blue and white police tape to divide the land into sectors for the search."

"The hot and predominantly dry climate on the Algarve, where temperatures regularly top 30C, mean the ground will be far drier than in northern Europe."

Insightful stuff.

This is a gem too.

'Three police tents set up on the site are thought to be where the teams are storing kit and taking drinks breaks rather than covering any significant parts of the site.'

 

[Ducklegs]

I think there will be if the police find any remains.

Still baffles me that 'new' evidence keeps cropping up seven years down the line.

Its incredible isnt it?

Its almost as if there is concerted effort every year just around this kind of time to get their faces back in the media.

 

[golden_blunder]

none of us can imagine what the parents and siblings of the child are going through, i find your comments a bit crass Ducklegs.

I for one am interested in hearing a conclusion to this mystery

 

[Getsme]

In an odd way I hope they find her. Obviously I'd much rather she be found alive, however, I believe she was killed long long ago.
No parent should have to go through this.

 

[Ducklegs]

none of us can imagine what the parents and siblings of the child are going through, i find your comments a bit crass Ducklegs.

I for one am interested in hearing a conclusion to this mystery

I apologize if you or anyone else were offended, but you don't know what any of us have been through in our personal lives.

Speaking as someone who has lost two children, I have no sympathy for the McCanns.

 

[golden_blunder]

I am sorry to hear that, and off course we dont know that.

But, it works both ways. we can only comment on whats been written. I found your comments very dismissive. As the father of a small child I can sympathize with what they are going through now, and i absolutely would do everything within my power to keep the search alive, even if it meant my ugly mug had to be spread across every media outlet every day of the year.
Also we need to remember Maddie's siblings and the affect negative publicity will have on them as they understand how to read more and more

all that being said, yes, the mccanns were wrong in leaving their child. a very high price to pay for that mistake.

 

[Shark]

I am sorry to hear that, and off course we dont know that.

But, it works both ways. we can only comment on whats been written. I found your comments very dismissive. As the father of a small child I can sympathize with what they are going through now, and i absolutely would do everything within my power to keep the search alive, even if it meant my ugly mug had to be spread across every media outlet every day of the year.
Also we need to remember Maddie's siblings and the affect negative publicity will have on them as they understand how to read more and more

all that being said, yes, the mccanns were wrong in leaving their child. a very high price to pay for that mistake.

A very high price indeed, but they were delusional if they didn't believe that there would be some sick feckers lurking around that resort with so many parents doing the same thing. Leaving their children alone while they have a meal and drinks.

It was technically a form of neglect IMO. Especially regarding children that young.

 

[DJ Jeff]

I apologize if you or anyone else were offended, but you don't know what any of us have been through in our personal lives.

Speaking as someone who has lost two children, I have no sympathy for the McCanns.

Can I ask why you have no sympathy for them? I dunno, just seems to me that if I was missing a loved one and had no answers I would do anything and everything I could to raise their profile until I got an answer, no matter what it did to the public's perception of me.