Sadly I fear that the parents are the only victims left alive.
Madeleine McCann
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
So what? They are not the primary victims. The child who was abducted was.
I really now only understand how you could hold the views you did. You're totally wrong btw, but at least I understand.
I wouldn't agree because even kids dressed up in such a ludicous way don't deserve to be kidnapped and parents who allow or even facilitate such oddness haven't done anything that deserves losing their kid.
Quite simply criminals are to blame for crime.
I was making the same point.
I think this is the root of the problem. People seem incapable of empathising with the parents who have lost a kid in such horrific circumstances.
But you are blaming the parents. Which isn't the same point.
I have no issue empathising with the parents. You seem to be of the opinion that people can't assign blame and feel pity for them. I just have more empathy for the 100% innocent daughter than I do for the partially at fault parents.
No, what I meant was that if there was a case of a child being abducted and the child was dressed up in one of those ridiculous inappropriate outfits I would assign zero blame to the parents if that was the only 'failing' they made. That is close to the rape/skirt analogy as the parents or the rape victim shouldn't be blamed for dressing sexy/inappropriately dressing a child.
Leaving a child alone isn't the same thing. Not the same thing at all.
There's plenty of evidence supporting the notion that the McCanns were involved in her disappearance.
The McCanns may well be sociopaths, why should anyone rule this out?
It simply doesn't follow that their acquaintances must all be sociopaths also.
And you think that's why it's being discussed? to blame the victims (Madeline being one too)? Maybe that's the issue...
I'm going to pick on your first point there Irwin but please note it has nothing to do with you.
I've seen a lot of complaints of this nature on the forum lately, whether here or in the United forum; misrepresentation, putting words in people's mouths, etc. What people fail to remember is that our interactions on here are in print only. What that means is that it's easy to misinterpret someone's post. Once we get to that point where we take offence at someone's misinterpretation and get defensive about misrepresenting or putting words in someone's mouth we lose all semblance of sensible discourse. This is a failing of the media we interact via but one that is easily surmounted as long as we are not too sensitive about it.
Good post
Dwayne, someone repeatedly maintaining that you are saying something when you explicitly clarify on several occasions that that's not your point is hugely frustrating.
I actually made about 4 posts in a row a few days back where I pasted a note saying the opposite of what Wibble said because I was sick of being accused of holding a certain opinion which I don't .
I actually made about 4 posts in a row a few days back where I pasted a note saying the opposite of what Wibble said because I was sick of being accused of holding a certain opinion which I don't .
Well, in my opinion your perfectly free to carrying on discussing that aspect, regardless of what Popper and Wibs say. This is not RAWK.
I saw your disclaimers and I'm sure they did too...
I saw your disclaimers and I'm sure they did too...
I think Wibble has a very solid point in this thread, and that's from someone who has often disagreed with him over the last few years.
There are some people in this thread who obviously fancy themselves as super sleuths and even more super parents who would never make a mistake.
The McCanns might have done it. The evidence is minimal, to say the least though. If there was strong evidence, they would not have been ruled out as suspects. The majority of those murdered in the world are murdered by people whom they know. The McCanns and the other British people at the hotel would have been first on the list for questioning. They have been categorically ruled out.
All of this questioning about the actions of the McCanns after the disappearance is also completely flawed. How rationally would you act immediately after your daughter had been kidnapped? I actually think they acted with remarkable levels of common sense, given the circumstances.
And what is lacking from this thread is any understanding that the real crime here was not the supposed 'neglect' from the McCanns. The crime was committed by the person who took her away from them. Accusing them of being terrible parents is both in poor taste and wrong. It also seemingly lets the criminal off the hook.
There are some people in this thread who obviously fancy themselves as super sleuths and even more super parents who would never make a mistake.
The McCanns might have done it. The evidence is minimal, to say the least though. If there was strong evidence, they would not have been ruled out as suspects. The majority of those murdered in the world are murdered by people whom they know. The McCanns and the other British people at the hotel would have been first on the list for questioning. They have been categorically ruled out.
All of this questioning about the actions of the McCanns after the disappearance is also completely flawed. How rationally would you act immediately after your daughter had been kidnapped? I actually think they acted with remarkable levels of common sense, given the circumstances.
And what is lacking from this thread is any understanding that the real crime here was not the supposed 'neglect' from the McCanns. The crime was committed by the person who took her away from them. Accusing them of being terrible parents is both in poor taste and wrong. It also seemingly lets the criminal off the hook.
What complete and utter codswallop.
Re-read the thread. Look where all of the criticism is aimed.
No Al. The discussion has gone round and round because that's where the discussion has been centred. People have disagreed on whether the parents have any share of the blame. Do you really think you'd get a 26 page thread where everyone says the abductors are cnuts? It's a given, and even though it's a given, it's been said many times. There's no debate that the people who took the child are cnuts so why would we focus on it?
It's a stupid point you're making.
I'm not saying that.
I'm just saying that for a case where it's clear that the police who know more than anyone else don't think the McCanns are suspects, it's amazing how certain people are that they are involved.
The speculation about their motives and actions is far greater than the far more likely outcome that actually someone took her.
If the child was kidnapped though there could be no disagreement as to immorality of the crime; therefore there's no discussion to be had in this regard. The discussion instead is naturally focusing on the area where there's a large discrepancy between people's opinions; i.e. the level of neglect the children were subjected to by the parents. Just because there's a valid discussion to be had in this regard though – and thus this being the primary focus of discussion – doesn't equate to anybody forgetting that the major culprit is he/she or whoever that physically removed the child from the apartment. There can be no reasonable discussion upon the morality of the latter, so it's meaningless to highlight a lack of focus there on as evidence that people are neglecting to be mindful of the most immoral aspect of the scenario.
That's just untrue and I suggest you reread the thread. I would say maybe 2-3 people in this thread actually said they believe they are involved. A few think it's possible and refuse to completely believe them and the vast majority think that they had nothing to do with the abduction but blame them in part for leaving their child in danger.
You don't need to be a super parent to decide never to leave your 3 children unattended.
How many years after the fact do people still need to start their posts off by condemning the kidnappers just to pass some code of conduct, it's a given. They may have done so in numerous threads between now and then.
If you believe them to be bad parents or parents that have neglected their children on occasion, it's not poor taste to say it on an internet forum. It may be insensitive to say it to them personally but that's something else entirely.
I've not seen any evidence of people fancying themselves as super-sleuths. There have been posts in which people have entertained the idea of the McCanns possibly being involved or stated they think they were in some way, but I hardly think offering an opinion that's slightly against the grain regarding an unsolved crime is playing at being Miss Marple. No one's claiming to be a super parent either, but you hardly have to be a super parent to see that leaving three children, aged 3 years old and younger, alone in an unlocked holiday apartment ,night after night for hours on end, is an example of extremely poor parenting. I really can't comprehend why people would defend the McCanns' parenting in this particular instance as 'just a mistake' unless they would happily do the same with their kids and are offended by people saying it's bad parenting. It was shit parenting, and there was no excuse for it other than pure selfishness. I don't think anyone on here would actually go up to Kate or Gerry McCann and say it to their face, and I don't think people being annoyed or angry about them leaving the kids alone are doing so at the expense of any sympathy, worry and concern for Madeleine.
Just because they've been ruled out doesn't mean people should suddenly change their minds about them, especially if there's been nothing to refute the reasons a person might have for thinking they were involved in some way. I've also not actually seen anyone suggest that they deliberately had her kidnapped or murdered her. The only involvement people have suggested has been accidental death and cover up, and most of the people suggesting that have admitted themselves that it seems highly unlikely.
People have questioned the actions of them because they have on many occasions come across as extremely odd. It's possible, even probable, that what many are viewing as odd and suspicious behaviour is simply just their way of dealing with what is obviously a horrific tragedy. The fact remains though that certain actions, particularly in the time immediately following the discovery that Madeleine was gone, were odd. They changed their stories regarding what happened, they've not even attempted to explain how they knew straight away that she'd been taken despite there being many other possible scenarios, Kate's first reaction was to leave the twins alone again instead of taking them with her or phoning for help, Kate answered no questions when interviewed by police and admitted that she knew it would hinder the investigation, and not one of the McCanns or their friends were involved in the physical search for their daughter on the night of the disappearance.
As has been repeated in this thread on multiple occasions now, I don't think anyone is making excuses for the abductor or making out that the crime of kidnapping a young child is any less horrible and wrong than it is, and they certainly aren't doing that by questioning the parenting decisions of the McCanns. There's absolutely nothing wrong with people accusing them of being terrible parents when they repeatedly did something that is very obviously an example of terrible parenting. I imagine people would have actually stopped talking about their parenting decisions quite a long time ago if others would stop making excuses for them and pretending that what they did was anything other than bad parenting. So much of the defence of the McCanns' parenting seems to be purely because they're a middle-class family.
Pretty good post Alex.
Just because bad parenting leads to terrible consequences doesn't then make people pricks for saying it was bad parenting. It's wrong to leave kids alone like that even if nothing bad happens, and it's equally wrong to have done it in circumstances where something terrible and tragic happens.
Just because bad parenting leads to terrible consequences doesn't then make people pricks for saying it was bad parenting. It's wrong to leave kids alone like that even if nothing bad happens, and it's equally wrong to have done it in circumstances where something terrible and tragic happens.
Good advice, I'm not too proud to try and take it, at least. I've also started telling myself to make only one point at a time, to try and avoid confusion, although I'm a bit shit at it so far I admit. What I've found with a long post is that you make your main point, then expand on it, or digress a bit, and then you can bet for certain some fecker will come back at you, completely ignoring your main point, and pick on something that wasn't really that relevant anyway. And another thing, ok, maybe not.
Fantastic post.
Tremendous postage!
As you say, we rarely agree but I agree with your whole post and your last paragraph sums up my entire point.
Except your point is wrong.
I think that this is exactly what many people are doing.
I think that my parenting has been one of my life's (so far) unmitigated successes. I am in awe of what a great human being my son is turning in to. Of course I am only a small part of this but the point remains. That said I have done, and continue to do, some things that others may well think is bad parenting. Minor and disputable those these instances may be. However, if harm had befallen my son I may well have been subject to similar character assassination. The fact that what the McCann's did fell outside my slightly paranoid comfort zone shouldn't subject them to the bile that has occurred.
Seriously? They didn't do it but we should persecute them anyway?
A bunch of incompetents accuse you of killing your child and you shouldn't stop talking to them? Go figure.
Excuses? If they had nothing to do with the crime what excuses are needed?
Et tu, brute
It makes you an utter cnut in my view. Which isn't my general opinion of you. It is basically being a judgmental bastard to victimise someone who is already at rock bottom IMO. Of course you have the comfort of knowing that this can only happen to such bad parents as the McCanns.
That's total shite man. How is me holding a personal opinion of the McCann's victimising them?
If someone didn't wear a seatbelt and the crashed, though they may have been badly injured stating that the fact they didn't wear the seatbelt made tings worse doesn't make you a cnut.
That's actually really insulting from you man.
To extend that logic no one would ever be able to criticise anybody for anything, as they would only be doing so to make themselves feel better. I accept this does happen on occasion, probably by all of us if we are honest enough to admit it, but to accuse everyone of having this as their sole reason doesn't make sense.
Because it is judgmental and totally unnecessary. And helps not at all. Plus you can foresee a car crash will be worse if you don't wear a belt and you can't foresee a kidnap. Not that this is a good reason to make someone who has suffered a loss though not wearing a seat belt feel even worse though criticising them.
And as I said that doesn't seem like you at all.
I don't think anyone has come up with any sort of wild theory about what's gone on. If they have I haven't seen it. Even out of those that have offered possible other scenarios, most have said that they don't think that's what actually happened.
Congratulations on raising your son. I don't know what this has to do with anything but give yourself a big pat on the back regardless. I don't get how you can acknowledge that it's something you wouldn't do, then say "ah well it was just a mistake" when someone else did it. Their decision to leave the kids alone night after night was extremely selfish, and in all likelihood was a contributing factor in Madeleine's disappearance. There is a massive difference between letting a 13 year old get a train alone between two locations he's familiar with or letting an 8 year old ride a bike around the block, and leaving three children, aged 3 and under, alone, in an unlocked holiday apartment, night after night, for hours on end each night. Yes you'd feel shit if something happened to your son while he was out on his bike or on a train, or even walking back from school, but they are all perfectly normal and usually perfectly safe things for someone of that age to be doing. There is literally nothing that is safe about leaving a 3 year old and her two younger siblings alone in an unlocked holiday apartment. Unless you've left your 3 year old son alone, at night, in an unlocked room/apartment/house, while you went off wining and dining for hours on end, then you might be subject to the same level of criticism, but as you've said you would never do that, I imagine you wouldn't do anything remotely similar either. You seem far more concerned that people are having a go at your own parenting ability than with actually fully acknowledging that leaving three toddlers alone for 5 consecutive nights is an example of really bad parenting. I don't think there's been any bile aimed at the McCanns, just heavy and warranted criticism of a particular parenting decision they had made. No one would say it to them in person because everyone realises that they've suffered enough. That doesn't change the fact that what they did was shit parenting regardless of whether Madeleine had been taken or not.
I don't think they did it, but others (very few on here I might add) might think they did. What part of 'unsolved' did you not understand? We don't know who did it, so my point about people thinking they were involved literally stands for those people. If they have reasons for thinking the McCanns were involved, and they are yet to be refuted, then surely that means their opinion will remain the same? There is also the fact that barely anyone in here genuinely believes they were involved in any way, and those that do can probably be rightfully written off as conspiracy nuts. Most of the persecution in here is aimed at their parenting, not at them as potential murderers.
It is standard procedure in many countries, including the UK, to make the parents suspects in cases like this. They make them suspects so they can either rule them out or find out what has really gone on. Stranger abductions are extremely rare, and at the time there appeared to be some form of evidence pointing towards Madeleine being dead. Have you seen the list of questions she was asked? Most are completely innocuous or related to other matters. She wasn't sat there with question after question centering on "DID YOU KILL HER?". Regardless of Kate's conduct when interviewed by police, it was still extremely odd that not one of the McCanns or their friends helped with the physical search, it was extremely odd that Kate left the twins alone again, it was extremely odd that they decided to put the twins back into the hotel creche after the disappearance, and it was extremely odd that they were so insistent that she had been kidnapped by someone who had broken in through the window only to change their story to leaving the door unlocked.
I don't know how you can say that they had nothing to do with the crime when it seems highly likely that their decision to leave three very young children aged 3 and under alone on consecutive nights while they fecked off down the road and out of sight to eat tapas and drink wine was very much a contributing factor. Not only did they leave them alone, they left them alone in an unlocked apartment. I'm assuming you're being deliberately thick here because I made it clear that the excuses were being made for their parenting, something that would have been just as bad if nothing had happened to Madeleine. Saying that their parenting was bad and probably contributed to the abduction does not mean that I, or anyone else, think that the abductor is in any way resolved of complete blame for this crime. The crime is terrible, the criminal is a horrible, horrible person. This is all a given, and does not need to be discussed or tacked on to every post for people to believe this.
Like I said earlier, your defence of the parenting seems to stem from some sort of weird personal offence you've taken at people saying it was bad. No one thinks that you're a bad parent, and I've not seen one example of parenting decisions in this thread that come remotely close to what the McCanns did. There's literally no point arguing this with you anymore because you're obviously never going to grasp/continue to ignore the fact that what they did was shit parenting regardless of the outcome, people do not think that what happened is any less horrific because they think the McCanns are bad parents, and the abductor is and will always be 100% to blame for abducting Madeleine.
I made a point in my last post saying that this debate would have ended long ago if people would stop making excuses for them. You've just made excuses for them and look where we are.
If this isn't the motivation why are people attacking the McCanns so much for having their child abducted and probably raped and murdered?
Of course you can foresee leaving kids alone night after night would put them at a much greater risk of kidnap.
I'm actually getting a bit annoyed at this, and it's a subject that pains me anyway so I think I'll leave this thread for a while.
I'm actually getting a bit annoyed at this, and it's a subject that pains me anyway so I think I'll leave this thread for a while.
There's a difference between saying it directly to them, and say, I don't know, discussing it with a group of people with absolutely no relation to them whatsoever on an internet forum. This however, seems to be completely lost on you, and you seem to think that someone saying "well that was shit" to a group of complete strangers is somehow equatable to going directly up to the person they're talking about and going "you are shit". It isn't and it never will be.
People are 'attacking' them so much because cretins like you keep inferring that what they did wasn't that bad. Remove the abduction from the equation and it's still extremely shit parenting. This is what 99% of this thread has been about but for some reason you seem to think that saying they were selfish and bad parents on that holiday is the same as placing the entire blame for the crime at their feet.