We've turned so many corners we're actually going round in circles.
LVG Out Thread | BBC: Sacked!
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We've turned so many corners we're actually going round in circles.
Is this thread being repeated on Dave or something?
It'll stop soon. Hopefully. When Jose takes over.
What examples? He plays young players.
Those 2 clubs are at mid table so I don't know why you see that as worth a mention. We came above Chelsea who were in a relegation fight and sacked their coach. We finished above Liverpool who also changed manager and has barely been above 8th all season. Hurrah! And people act like we have played young players all season. The narrative has changed again. The young players filled in here and there when we had players out. We have hardly gone the bulk of the premiership season playing young players. How many league games has each "young player" even started?
Except, most that cite this don't (simultaneously) cite which players he's overlooked that subsequently wowed the world and showed up Jose's "folly" in overlooking youth. Frankly, I don't see Loftus-Cheek (the player most use as the stick to beat Jose with) as having taken the world by storm. Similarly, I don't think anyone rated Varane as a world-beater when Jose started bringing him in. People mention Lukaku, but both he and Jose have clarified what happened. He wanted to be a regular starter and both he and Jose felt he wasn't at that level yet for Chelsea, so he departed - although Jose wanted to retain him. Similar situation with KDB. Also, given that Chelsea won titles without them and looked great while doing it, can't really blame him, can you?
As an analogy, people often say SAF was excellent with "kids", but how many youth team players came in after the Class of '92? Most youngsters were bought - Rooney, Ronaldo, the da Silvas - and others were lost / sold - Pogba being the first to spring to mind - because SAF felt that they were either not ready or didn't have the required mentality.
All in all, Jose has done fairly ok with the likes of Robben, di Maria, Ozil, Varane, Hazard, Oscar and co. when offered youngsters (all were 22 or younger when Jose bought them / brought them in). I am not defending him as a messiah for bringing in youth players. I'm just saying that he's had to do what he does best (win trophies) with potentially limited resources. You could use this "youth" stick to beat most top managers as most of the top teams have:
1. Very little margin for error while chasing titles - thereby little leeway to accommodate the inevitable occasional brain-fades from youngsters
2. Youth academies that aren't quite at the La Masia level...meaning there are few "ready" youngsters for making the step up.
For the record, which academy player has Ancelotti trusted and brought through? Or Blanc? Or any of the assorted managers cited as alternatives to Mourinho? NB: The question is specific to academy graduates as that's the stick being used to beat Mou. Most of them too buy the most talented youngsters - and once they do, they play them.
If we win the FA Cup and finish 4th and Spurs don't win the title would you say we've had a better season than Spurs ? Bizarrely I guess the answer will be that we will have had.
We should actually try hiring someone from the top tier and see where we go from there. That's what we're meant to be isn't it? A top tier club? LVG is a level below Mourinho/Pep et al and guess where we are? A level below the top - which reflects in our team sheet and our league standing.
Better than sitting on our arses when the building is on fire hoping it puts itself out.
As opposed to what? Keeping a failing manager because sacking people is mean?
Sure he does,he trusts youth players so much,he also never parked a titanic,its all made up,its all lies. Examples? Most recent,if he had any trust in youth,hell if he had any trust in reserves,he would still be a Chelsea manager but what you can do when there is no one better then Ivanovic and Matic on 20% of their prev season (for example).
If you persistently employ people who can't do the job you've employed them for then you tend to sack them and get somebody else. It's kind of how it works in any job in any field.
When has being OK become acceptable?.
Really?. How many 18 years olds started playing till the past two months??
How long have Leicester and spurs players been playing under their respective setups? or for that matter, Arsenal players have been in the same setup for years and years and yet we see no end product from them?
People also forget the run in we had for the cup... We had Sheffield, Shrewsbury and Derby in the first three rounds!!!!
This squad needs disruption imo. Also, winning the FA cup isn't a major achievement. Arsenal won it twice and they've blown the league same as allways.
Those statistics are damning. I don't agree with people who say "this is the worst United side in X years", Moyes' team was probably worse but LVG has had more time and money without much improvement.
When Moyes got sacked, most people put it down to him not being good enough. At least Moyes could be put down as a one off, LVG has lowered expectations and might still be here for another year. It's almost as if he's made it acceptable.
I know on paper winning the FA cup isn't a huge deal but I went absolutely crazy after that Martial go in the semis and I think everyone did, I think winning the FA cup would be a really good moment. Its also important for the development of a lot of these players, they need to get used to winning, its like when we were winning I think the league cup final, convincingly, so subbed on Vidic and Evra so they knew what being a Manchester United player meant. Most of these players have never won any trophies with us and they need to realise its a minimum expectation, it could give them a lot of confidence.
recently he has said
'Fans are living in the past'
'Expectations are too high'
'Havnt had the quality of players to work with'
The last one is debatable but the living in the past comment is risible coming from a man who peaked when I was 2.
Or maybe that's exactly what he meant? Expecting him to take us to the top = living in the pastThe last one is debatable but the living in the past comment is risible coming from a man who peaked when I was 2.
It's relative to the club, Spurs are normally outsiders for CL qualifcation who always fall just short additionally they never challenge for the title. They've played some brilliant football too. Compared to us, we may win the FA Cup and finish fourth, but it hasn't been enjoyable and we haven't lived up to expectations.
Or maybe that's exactly what he meant? Expecting him to take us to the top = living in the past
That would be an interesting press conference: "The fhans musht remember, I am a bit shit".
We played well against WHU and in our last game.
That's 2 games out of roughly 50 games, this season?
Are you seriously forgetting all the other games we have played the most boring football seen at OT, for decades?
@Marcus you changed your vote based on 1 match? :shakes head:
To be fair, we've played well in more than 2 games this season. That those decent performances have been the exception to the rule, and not the rule itself has been really disappointing.
This is exactly why I turned against LVG (before December I was a huge LVG supporter because I believe we needed possession football, to eventually beat Barcelona, but as it stands we cant even beat teams like Norwich, Stoke, Bournemouth, etc).
My belief is that LVG cannot do better than 4th/5th place - that's his limit. He has repeatedly iterated (last season and this season) that 4th place is his target.
We should be targeting 1st place, not 4th.
And that's why I want him gone.
The answer is simply not enough to prove a point. Ancelotti in particular has only accepted offers from clubs where the cash was always flowing. Of course that's not something to hold against him, his man management skills are outstanding and he's achieved to label himself, throughout the years, as the safest choice for a squad full of superstars and egocentric owners/presidents.
But if you persist on pointing out the obvious, they'll come right back at you with the "short term success-burned out players-doesn't build for the future" narrative. Then you'll try to explain that the Cech-Terry-Lampard-Essien-Drogba axis, that Mourinho established, helped Chelsea retain their place among the elite clubs in England and in Europe. You'll also point out that a year after he left Madrid, Real went on to win the European Cup under Ancelotti without their players looking exhausted, physically or mentally. After that, they'll say he often falls out with players and members of his staff. Well, so has Ferguson, Guardiola and many others. The thing is that when Fergie threw the shoe at Beckham, you knew that Beckham's future at the club wasn't secured anymore and when Pep lost his temper with the chief of his medical staff on camera, you knew that Bayern's board would try to downplay the whole incident. Because both Fergie and Guardiola were always seen as the highest authority in their respective clubs, something that Mourinho came close to only at Inter.
I might be wrong but i believe the main problem with Mourinho is that he is seen as synonymous with the beginning of the era of sugar daddy clubs in English football in the eyes of many United fans. Up until the mid 00's the big rivalry was with Arsenal and Wenger with both clubs being financially healthy and able to dominate the PL because of their success on the football pitch. Then Roman came and tried to prove that money alone can bring success very quickly. And money did buy him the best manager in the world at that time. As a bonus, that manager came with an attitude which, while it wasn't uncommon in this particular line of work, seemed to be adding more egotism to the owner's "arrogance" back then.
It was then when we started to distinguish ourselves both as a club and as fans from Chelsea (and City afterwards) as a team that had earned its commercial success and therefore the ability to spend big money on players. We don't like to buy our success but we never complained about being the club that has broken the transfer record on the island more times than any other either. It was also then when we started hearing the "no value in the market" argument and when the "love" for academy players and its importance was blown out of proportions. I'm using these words not because the introduction of local lads into the first team wasn't always a part of our club's DNA but simply because, for many people, it's starting to become an obsession. Like it's the only thing that will help us persevere our identity and we must do it even when the academy products aren't ready yet to carry the team on their shoulders. You mentioned in your post that since the class of '92 there haven't been any major additions in the first team but no one made a story out of it when Ferguson was still in charge.
So, i believe that Mourinho is still an "enemy" for many United fans. And although we bounced back with one of Fergie's best United sides, i guess there are still some grudges held. It's understandable to a point but it can not be used as an excuse not to appoint Mourinho when the only alternative you have is Moyes or not be content with him when the obvious alternative is another season of LvG and then Giggs.
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For me, it's absolutely damning that Everton - who are utterly without the swagger of Martinez's early days - dominated the second half our our latest match. That wasn't Everton being excellent - it was us displaying one of our fundamental weaknesses under van Gaal yet again.
He's a glorified interim manager. And still, proper interims like Gus and Rafa managed to outperform him.
Their cup form is seperate from league form though. You can never really gauge Cup semi finals and finals. Wembley + adrenaline etc got Everton pumped. That was their game of the season, nothing else to play for if they lost.
When Hiddink took over Chelsea we were 11 points ahead of them. We're now 12 points ahead of them. Just saying.
Cup competitions are completely different. Wigan won the FA cup beating City, the season they got relegated. Its the old magic of the FA cup I suppose.
The last one is debatable but the living in the past comment is risible coming from a man who peaked when I was 2.
post of the year..Truly inspiring
LvG makes my brain hurt
Defend yourself, fine. But don't blame things that are your own fault.
That's like pleading innocent to a murder charge because you think the bullet is to blame.
Defend yourself, fine. But don't blame things that are your own fault.
That's like pleading innocent to a murder charge because you think the bullet is to blame.
VP89 said:
ravelston said:
prath92 said:
Well that's my opinions f*cked. I'll see myself out...
*shuts door quietly*
Great post. Not a single point I disagree with... It astounds me that most can't see this...
For what it's worth, I thought the same. I didn't think we played well and our players didn't look as motivated as they should be given it was a semifinal in a competition we haven't won for some time. Our first half wasn't as good as most thought it was IMO. Obviously people are right in saying cup games are different, but Everton's lack of form and confidence were evident during the first half and they became better during the second half, once they realised that we aren't that much better.
Yes but we will have achieved more. The record books don't say anything about brilliant football and I can't ever remember anything notable with any runner up in anything. No one remembers them but in 30 years time and beyond people will recall an FA Cup final.
Can you remember the football that any runner up to our title wins has played ?
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