LVG: Man Utd is a commercial club, not like Bayern Munich.

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

I doubt that the majority of the Caf doesn't acknowledge the fact that the club is in a bad state and that the Glazers are the main culprits for that. In this sense, very few people would argue that LvG is wrong in what he is saying there.

But, as with any line of work, a bit of discretion should always be in the main course. I know that Woodward handled his sacking very poorly and in a way that hurt the club's image and reputation. So, when LvG first came out with these quotes, we could say fair enough and move on. Even though, as far as i can remember, his choices, when he was here, contributed to the mess we're in instead of remedying the situation. LvG is a stubborn man and he can hold a grudge, but come on... Openly announcing to the press - and to the whole football world - that he advises one of the most upcoming managers in Europe to not go anywhere near United... it's a bit out of order, isn't it?

Again, not in the sense that there's no truth in what he is saying. Without a shadow of a doubt, there is. But they also say that you should not beat someone when they're down, and that you can count your true friends when you are going through your darkest moments. As fans, we're going through a season during which we have witnessed our manager's name being sung by opposition fans, losing 5-0 to Liverpool at OT, 4-1 to City, and we're on our way to finishing outside the top-four while our fiercest rivals are thinking about trebles and quadruples. Just a bit of tact, Louis. That's all.

 

[smi11ie]

I think instead of viewing it as LVG being bitter we should view it as someone with past experience of the club giving the club a warning and direction to change. Almost like a free consultation from Gordon Ramsay. Won’t be what you want to hear and won’t sound nice but if you listen, understand and act on it it will benefit your business.

We get Ten Hag we either change structure and get the best out of him or waste one of the most highly rated coaches in football.

If we don’t get Ten Hag we realise that he rejected us because of our structure and we think about how and why we also didn’t get Klopp and adapt so in the future we don’t lose out on the best.

I think this is the best way to look at LVG's response. He doesn't come across as a petty individual, he is just pointing out something obvious.

 

[Maticmaker]

Yes Mr van Gaal, we are a commercial venture (really) not a football club any longer........

Ultimately its the Super League the Glazer's are after, 'wall to wall' cash, whether you win, lose or draw, its football for the future on Netflix, Amazon and Disney +, its subscription viewing by the millions who cannot visit OT, so who is bothered about fans 75,000 fans in stadiums, when there are 700 million subscription payers viewing waiting to view all live matches around the world... just get in on the ground floor with Super League and the media moguls!!

The last (Covid hit) season without any fans watching the games was the 'proving ground', that you don't need fans in there, just the 'canned noise' of a crowd, oh yes and a celebrity to kick off every match.

Argghhh! just woken up from my nightmare!

 

[Random Task]

A lot of posters seem to be denial over the truth of Van Gaal's words. Some really bitter shite being posted in here.

If we hire Poch and sign Kane as I suspect will happen, Van Gaal will only be proved even more correct.

If this, if that, blah blah blah. It never ceases to amaze me how people create a scenario in their head and automatically assume it as fact. That takes some serious doing, by the way. It's actually impressive.

But yeah, United are a commercial club. Let me ask you this: when was that not the case? LVG was well aware of that fact long before he signed the contract to manage the club. That he's bringing it up now in order to convince another manager not to join is bang out of order. Can you not see how much a cnut he is?

 

[Fridge chutney]

@Adnan thank you for your level-headed and factually-based posts. I learned a lot, and it seems as if we may be moving in a positive direction structurally, in an environment that may even suit Ten Hag

I wonder however which top flight club in the modern game isn't a "commercial" club. I guess one could make an argument that the sportswashing clubs aren't.

 

[tomaldinho1]

A lot of posters seem to be denial over the truth of Van Gaal's words. Some really bitter shite being posted in here.

If we hire Poch and sign Kane as I suspect will happen, Van Gaal will only be proved even more correct.

It’s bizarre. I feel like we’ve entered a bit of a new era as a fan base now we’ve been relatively unsuccessful for so long where most people have begrudgingly accepted what we are but it seems there are still those who genuinely don’t understand the reality of what we are; a tier 2 (and that’s probably generous) footballing club but an absolute commercial behemoth. Just because our name gets linked to top players, we spend big, pay well and we’re usually used for news stories doesn’t make up for the drop off we’ve experienced on the pitch. Getting defensive about a former manager echoing what we all say in here is weird.

 

[R'hllor]

Holy shit at some posts in here.

 

[romufc]

I think this is the best way to look at LVG's response. He doesn't come across as a petty individual, he is just pointing out something obvious.

I think you will note that every club that is not backed by a state or oil state, are a commercial club.

In respects to LVG, he is a petty guy, you can see it, he holds the grudge for being sacked. Even though he was rubbish for us.

 

[DeGea’sFeet]

If this, if that, blah blah blah. It never ceases to amaze me how people create a scenario in their head and automatically assume it as fact. That takes some serious doing, by the way. It's actually impressive.

But yeah, United are a commercial club. Let me ask you this: when was that not the case? LVG was well aware of that fact long before he signed the contract to manage the club. That he's bringing it up now in order to convince another manager not to join is bang out of order. Can you not see how much a cnut he is?

United put business above football. That’s the point. All top clubs are commercial clubs, even City and Chelsea due to FFP. Bayern have their stadium sponsored, don’t get more commercial than that. But the point is they are all football clubs at heart.

The manager at Bayern or City speaks about signing an unknown 21 y/o , players not being motivated, or why a key player isn’t tactically suited and should be sold despite great stats etc he’s talking to a football man that either agrees or disagrees but at least understands the manager’s point.

At United the manager speaks about the very same issues with (previously) Ed Woodward, now Murtough. Two city guys that won’t understand the point and really have no clue. The only thing they should be consulted on is this player should be worth between x and xxx don’t bid higher than this amount… or it’s worth bidding higher than xxx for this player because the benefit to the team will be worthwhile over the 3-10 years he’ll be here.

 

[stefan92]

Bayern Munich is also a commercial club. You have to be stupid for thinking otherwise. Van Gaal was just taking the piss. Even Westham are a commercial club. A non commercial club is a club like Wealdstone FC.

Bayern's approach - and that of all other true big clubs like Real or Barca - is to focus on success first and then exploiting that commercially. The foundation of their financial power is their status as a football power.

United on the other hand doesn't seem focused on success, they exploit their brand value, signs players that guarantee massive social media presence loke Pogba, Rashford or Lingard and essentially libe on being famous for the sake of being famous. The Kardashian of football clubs if you like.

 

[aganley]

Bayern's approach - and that of all other true big clubs like Real or Barca - is to focus on success first and then exploiting that commercially. The foundation of their financial power is their status as a football power.

United on the other hand doesn't seem focused on success, they exploit their brand value, signs players that guarantee massive social media presence loke Pogba, Rashford or Lingard and essentially libe on being famous for the sake of being famous. The Kardashian of football clubs if you like.

That's so admirable from a Bayern's point of view when you win the league 9 out of 10 seasons, or what ever it is. When they have a complete monopoly of everything German. Bayern could appoint me as the manager and still make the champions league. With little impact of revenue.

 

[Vapor trail]

Agree with some of the comments, structural changes are a good indicator that the club is aware of this issue and are pro actively resembling the infrastructure which other successful club's have implemented over the years.

Ragnick in a hierarchy role would do even more wonders. Consider that John Murtough and Fletcher have minimal experience, Ralf's input could be fundamental to moving the club forward.

Ragnick's stance that players should leave if unhappy getting rid of the player power at the club, the Sascha Lense appointment (psychologist) even the mention of league referees attending training sessions, it's clear to see his influence is better suited beyond first team management he is undoubtedly a mover and shaker.

Just hope the club acknowledge this and doesn't offer him a watered down role as inevitably he will leave. From another perspective Ragnick's move to the hierarchy is probably even more important that the right appointment of the next manager.

 

[DannyCAFC]

It feels like this potentially got lost in translation, what with him specifically mentioning Rummenigge and Hoeness and all.

I read this as him basically just highlighting there's a lack of balance between commercial matters and footballing matters in the executive hierachy, which is absolutely correct of course considering Utd's refusal to adopt a director of football system for so long and putting an investment banker in charge of transfer policy for nearly a decade.

 

[el3mel]

Correct. Plus, for all those criticising LvG, we did treat him pretty disgracefully.

Leave aside any quibbles about performances, to sack the bloke the day after winning a major trophy and after (supposedly) giving him several strong re-assurances he would see out his contract is poor form.

If he had finished top 4 he would have stayed. He failed, so he got sacked. That's about it. Why should these assurances matter when the end result was a failure ?

Fa Cup was nice and all but it wasn't the target, and it wasn't really a memorable trophy by any means. The strongest opponent we faced in our run was Everton. Hardly a trophy that should have saved his head after failing the main target.

We could have postponed his sacking few more days after the cup win for sure, but his position was doomed once we lost to WHU 3-2 and were confirmed out of CL next season.

If he expected to stay with such failure then he's an idiot.

 

[Corridor of Uncertainty]

Ahhh, that West Ham game. Good times.

 

[Lemoor]

At United the manager speaks about the very same issues with (previously) Ed Woodward, now Murtough. Two city guys that won’t understand the point and really have no clue. The only thing they should be consulted on is this player should be worth between x and xxx don’t bid higher than this amount… or it’s worth bidding higher than xxx for this player because the benefit to the team will be worthwhile over the 3-10 years he’ll be here.

Murtough is a football man though. Did you mean Arnold?

 

[Random Task]

United put business above football. That’s the point. All top clubs are commercial clubs, even City and Chelsea due to FFP. Bayern have their stadium sponsored, don’t get more commercial than that. But the point is they are all football clubs at heart.

The manager at Bayern or City speaks about signing an unknown 21 y/o , players not being motivated, or why a key player isn’t tactically suited and should be sold despite great stats etc he’s talking to a football man that either agrees or disagrees but at least understands the manager’s point.

At United the manager speaks about the very same issues with (previously) Ed Woodward, now Murtough. Two city guys that won’t understand the point and really have no clue. The only thing they should be consulted on is this player should be worth between x and xxx don’t bid higher than this amount… or it’s worth bidding higher than xxx for this player because the benefit to the team will be worthwhile over the 3-10 years he’ll be here.

Yeah, okay, but none of that is news to us. We know the Glazers - and the club by extension, unfortunately - prioritize the commercial aspects of the business. But without a heavy focus on sponsorship, retail, merchandising and other sources of commercial revenue, we'd be unable to compete in the transfer market with the state-run clubs such as City, Chelsea, and PSG. It's entirely necessary.

The above has nothing to do with LVG openly encouraging Ten Hag to reconsider taking on the job, though. He didn't make those comments because he believed they were in the clubs' interests, he said what e said purely out of bitterness. The way the club handled the sacking process was laughably bad, undoubtedly, but does it warrant him going out of his way to sabotage the club from the outside? To LVG, sure it does, as that's his petty nature - he's fallen out with every club he's managed due to that. Fortunately, his reputation precedes him. No one cares what he has to say.

 

[Lemoor]

Yeah, okay, but none of that is news to us. We know the Glazers - and the club by extension, unfortunately - prioritize the commercial aspects of the business. But without a heavy focus on sponsorship, retail, merchandising and other sources of commercial revenue, we'd be unable to compete in the transfer market with the state-run clubs such as City, Chelsea, and PSG. It's entirely necessary.

The above has nothing to do with LVG openly encouraging Ten Hag to reconsider taking on the job, though. He didn't make those comments because he believed they were in the clubs' interests, he said what e said purely out of bitterness. The way the club handled the sacking process was laughably bad, undoubtedly, but does it warrant him going out of his way to sabotage the club from the outside? To LVG, sure it does, as that's his petty nature - he's fallen out with every club he's managed due to that. Fortunately, his reputation precedes him. No one cares what he has to say.

There is also a possibility that he did it because he genuinely considers it useful advice to ETH.

 

[git_united]

Does any of this really matter? Isn't the commercial-club-iness of Man Utd priced into the manager's salary? Is there any club that would pay as much that isn't 'commercial'?

It seems to me that it's the power structure that matters more, unless the point is that the power structure and commerciality of the club are inextricably linked.

 

[Random Task]

There is also a possibility that he did it because he genuinely considers it useful advice to ETH.

No, mate. I don't think so. If he merely wanted to advise Ten Hag, he'd do so privately like anyone else. That he went public with his comments, allowing the entire footballing world to hear, speaks to an entirely different motive. He wanted the club to hear about it, clearly. Think about it.

He doesn't give a shit about Ten Hag.

 

[sullydnl]

There's nothing LVG said that a neutral, disinterested party asked to give an opinion on United as a prospect for a young manager couldn't also conclude. The idea that it's just bitterness is weird. Was it bitterness when countless United fans came to the exact same conclusion over the last decade? You don't need to have a grudge against the club to know or point out that we've been weighted far too much towards a commercial outlook than a football one and have severely lacked football expertise or infrasturcture that might make other clubs a more enticing prospect for managers.

Even the club itself know that's the case. That's presumably why we've moved to a DOF structure, to try and address that problem.

And there's no reason for LVG not to give that honest answer when asked a question by the media. There's no onus on him to pretend he doesn't think what he thinks. Especially when what he thinks is (or at least was until recent changes) absolutely correct. We've been exactly the sort of club you should warn managers to be wary of joining.

 

[dinostar77]

Agree with Van Gaal. Spot on we are a commerical club and a football club second.

 

[Lemoor]

No, mate. I don't think so. If he merely wanted to advise Ten Hag, he'd do so privately like anyone else. That he went public with his comments, allowing the entire footballing world to hear, speaks to an entirely different motive. He wanted the club to hear about it, clearly. Think about it.

He doesn't give a shit about Ten Hag.

I'm not trying to imply some deep, hidden care for ten Hag, but he was asked that question at a press conference and has to give some sort of an answer. For me, what he said is reasonable enough (outside of awkward phrasing probably due to translation) that you don't need some massive amounts of bitterness to explain it.

 

[Rojofiam]

He has a point, however he also vetoed the Kroos signing which I'll never forgive him for.

He also got so scared of the PL after our 5-3 loss vs Leicester that it was the last time we played entertaining football under him, and this was what, 1-2 months into his reign? After that game he shit himself and we started playing the most boring playstyle I've ever seen us play. Okay, there actually was a good period for a couple of weeks in the spring of 2015 when we beat Spurs, City, Pool and Villa and played good football. But that's it.

No doubt in my mind that LVG is by far the worst manager we've had post-SAF

 

[Rolaholic]

He has a point, however he also vetoed the Kroos signing which I'll never forgive him for.

He also got so scared of the PL after our 5-3 loss vs Leicester that it was the last time we played entertaining football under him, and this was what, 1-2 months into his reign? After that game he shit himself and we started playing the most boring playstyle I've ever seen us play. Okay, there actually was a good period for a couple of weeks in the spring of 2015 when we beat Spurs, City, Pool and Villa and played good football. But that's it.

No doubt in my mind that LVG is by far the worst manager we've had post-SAF

He was better than Moyes and Ole with a worse squad than either and he had the best record against our top rivals of any of our managers post-Fergie

Saying he's our worst manager since is simply not the case

 

[Random Task]

There's nothing LVG said that a neutral, disinterested party asked to give an opinion on United as a prospect for a young manager couldn't also conclude. The idea that it's just bitterness is weird. Was it bitterness when countless United fans came to the exact same conclusion over the last decade? You don't need to have a grudge against the club to know or point out that we've been weighted far too much towards a commercial outlook than a football one and have severely lacked football expertise or infrasturcture that might make other clubs a more enticing prospect for managers.

Even the club itself know that's the case. That's presumably why we've moved to a DOF structure, to try and address that problem.

And there's no reason for LVG not to give that honest answer when asked a question by the media. There's no onus on him to pretend he doesn't think what he thinks. Especially when what he thinks is (or at least was until recent changes) absolutely correct. We've been exactly the sort of club you should warn managers to be wary of joining.

I don't understand this post. Mate, no one is disputing that the club's priority is the commercial side of the business. Not a soul in this thread or anywhere beyond. It's common knowledge to any football fan.

We've been exactly the sort of club you should warn managers to be wary of joining.

This again.

Why not "warn him" via a phone call? Why take it public so everyone and their dog can hear about it?

 

[DeGea’sFeet]

Murtough is a football man though. Did you mean Arnold?

Hahaha, you’ve given me an easy get out of jail card. But I’ll be honest i didn’t know Murtough came from a football background, so I did actually mean Murtough and forgot about Arnold.

 

[Adnan]

@Adnan thank you for your level-headed and factually-based posts. I learned a lot, and it seems as if we may be moving in a positive direction structurally, in an environment that may even suit Ten Hag

I wonder however which top flight club in the modern game isn't a "commercial" club. I guess one could make an argument that the sportswashing clubs aren't.

Thanks mate

And regarding Van Gaal, his criticism about the club is centred around the preseason tour and not the footballing structure. Because in his own words, the structure 'wasn't bad'.

The travelling etc on the tour in 2014, caused LVG much consternation and the club made concessions the following year where a game that was scheduled to be played in California was moved due to the long travel involved. And also the USA tour was cut short to appease Van Gaal.

So instead of discussing what Van Gaal was actually criticising the club over, people have interpreted their own version of why he said what he said. The article below explains his frustration over the club's plan to tour the USA which was due to commercial aspects.

Paul Hirst: "The new manager fears travelling across the country is putting success for the forthcoming season at risk"

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...iming-it-is-hitting-preparations-9622354.html

 

[sullydnl]

I don't understand this post. Mate, no one is disputing that the club's priority is the commercial side of the business. Not a soul in this thread or anywhere beyond. It's common knowledge to any football fan.



This again.

Why not "warn him" via a phone call? Why take it public so everyone and their dog can hear about it?

Because he was asked in public to give his opinion on this among many other issues. So why would he decline to do so? If the media asks him what he thinks he's allowed to give an opinion, there's no onus on him to keep his thoughts private when asked a direct question.

 

[Random Task]

Because he was asked in public to give his opinion on this among many other issues. So why would he decline to do so? If the media asks him what he thinks he's allowed to give an opinion, there's no onus on him to keep his thoughts private.

Fair enough, expecting any form of professional decency from LVG is asking a lot.

Also, saying that he has no onus to keep his thoughts to himself implies he is still bitter, halfway proving the point. He doesn't publically warn Ten Hag away from the club - making damn sure United hear all about it - if he wasn't bitter about his admittedly poorly handled sacking.

 

[sullydnl]

Fair enough, expecting any form of professional decency from LVG is asking a lot.

Also, saying that he has no onus to keep his thoughts to himself implies he is still bitter, halfway proving the point. He doesn't publically warn Ten Hag away from the club - making damn sure United hear all about it - if he wasn't bitter about his admittedly poorly handled sacking.

Honestly you sound more bitter towards him than he does towards us.

There was zero wrong with what he said. In fact his opinion that the club is far too focused on the commercial side rather than football is one that most football fans and United fans would likely concur with. It's pretty self-evident based on the last decade. And many neutral parties would similarly warn managers away from the club for that reason too, or managers would come to that conclusion themselves as someone like Klopp did. It's not a particularly controversial or uncommon thought, nor it is particularly unprofessional for him to share it. God knows there's no rule that says former employees can't have opinions about the club.

The fact that he said it publicly doesn't tell you anything bar the fact that he is still (as he always has been) someone happy to be bluntly honest with the media. Just as he was happy to be bluntly honest about FIFA and UEFA in the same press conferences. He doesn't need to be bitter to think or say exactly what he thought or said.

 

[Sandikan]

Van Gaal trying to out bitter Moyesie moaning about us years and years on, is it?

 

[Random Task]

Honestly you sound more bitter towards him than he does towards us.

There was zero wrong with what he said. In fact his opinion that the club is far too focused on the commercial side rather than football is one that most football fans and United fans would likely concur with. It's pretty self-evident based on the last decade. And many neutral parties would similarly warn managers away from the club for that reason too, or managers would come to that conclusion themselves as someone like Klopp did. It's not a particularly controversial or uncommon thought, nor it is particularly unprofessional for him to share it. God knows there's no rule that says former employees can't have opinions about the club.

The fact that he said it publicly doesn't tell you anything bar the fact that he is still (as he always has been) someone happy to be bluntly honest with the media. Just as he was happy to be bluntly honest about FIFA and UEFA in the same press conferences. He doesn't need to be bitter to think or say exactly what he thought or said.

Bitter towards him? No. A little bemused that he'd go out of his way to warn off a future United manager from joining the club, particularly one so highly thought of by the fans and club hierarchy.

Are we too focused on the commercial side, though, or do you not think that drawing in as much revenue as humanly possible is an absolute necessity if we hope to compete with the state-run clubs? There is no Sancho, Varane, Pogba... Rice without a heavy financial focus. We all know this.

It's not like a heavy commercial focus is detrimental to the club anyway. It doesn't interfere with the day-to-day running of the club, and it doesn't impact the players' performances on the pitch. The manager and the players are responsible for that.

It feels like you're vindicating him by suggesting outside parties should warn managers away from the club. Why? Look, I'm no Glazer fan, but for all their faults, they stay out of the club's affairs for the most part - the club owner doesn't even live in the country. The Glazers couldn't care less about the club, it's a cash cow to them. Their mistake was entrusting Woodward to run the club effectively, which failed miserably. A mistake they're hoping to rectify with Arnold this summer.

 

[fezzerUTD]

This

This?. It doesn’t even make fecking sense.

 

[el3mel]

He was better than Moyes and Ole with a worse squad than either and he had the best record against our top rivals of any of our managers post-Fergie

Saying he's our worst manager since is simply not the case

He was also facing far worse top 6 teams than Moyes, Mourinho and Ole. Liverpool was much stronger before and after his 2 seasons here.

 

[norm87cro]

Bayern Munich, Juventus and Real Madrid are the 3 most monopoly oriented teams in Europe so LVG should keep his mouth closed.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

I think this is the best way to look at LVG's response. He doesn't come across as a petty individual, he is just pointing out something obvious.

He was spot on.

 

[Adnan]

Didn't he clash with Romario because he tried to play him on the wing?

He was universally disliked by South American players, so clashing with Romario was normal because players like Romario enjoyed creative freedom and in LVG's horizontal positional play, they felt suffocated.

But what LVG is complaining about in his latest retort is centred around the commercial aspects when it came to the preseason tour. If he had pointed to our structure on the football side being outdated then I would have sympathy for him, but Van Gaal went on record and said our structure 'wasn't bad'.

And i'm not going to lose any sleep over the logistics side when it comes to scheduling the tour. And I'm pretty sure a new head coach who is accustomed to the modern game, won't have a problem juggling preseason commitments with planning ahead for the new season.

 

[United in sin]

Bayern Munich, Juventus and Real Madrid are the 3 most monopoly oriented teams in Europe so LVG should keep his mouth closed.

These clubs are better run than United on the football side of things, that's what matters. Any united supporter who can't see this is delusional. United are focused more on the commercial aspect. LVG is right

 

[clarkydaz]

Bayern Munich, Juventus and Real Madrid are the 3 most monopoly oriented teams in Europe so LVG should keep his mouth closed.

They are driven and hellbent on sporting success, thats the difference.