Just to touch on the potential covering of chumpitaz when faced with Bale. Bale is gonna be pretty direct in this game, and I'm picturing one instance v inter where bale took it past Maicon , lucio stepped over and bale just destroyed him. Now if Henry is quicker than chumpitaz in your eyes, so is bale , so it's actually not hard to imagine him being just as effective in this game as he was v inter. Wasn't Julio Cesar the goalkeeper in that game bale got a hattrick?
LV Monopoly draft - QF3: Enigma vs DavidG
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
Gullit-van Basten was better, no doubt about it.
You could also get Muller, couldn't you?
Henry is better than Bale in almost every aspect. Not to mention Chumpitaz several levels above Maicon.
Besides Bale has also Dani Alves on the flank, and I'm not sure he has scored against Barca bar that Copa Del Rey goal, which came against Bartra with Alves playing as a LB due to early injury.
All 3 goals into Julio Cesar. The first one, probably as good example as you'll get of bales position in my team versus the likely positions of the defenders. The only difference here is Zanetti is in Xavi's role ( with the argentine being FAR superior defensively ) and bale just blows them away. He's a difference maker in this game and with the added threat of Carlos overlapping confusing Alves even more, Bale is having a field day here.
yeah he landed in the American box I think. Gullit / Muller is much better and won't see me opposing that.
Yes but that would have still meant dropping Charles and I'd prefer Charles in the air over him particularly if he was on his own up front.
What?
Henry is not a better left midfielder than Bale, nor is he quicker. Bale is more effective in this game , in this position , than Henry could ever be.
It's besides the point, at some point bale is up against chumpitaz with nothing behind them but space. Bale wins that race and either knocks it into the bottom right like he did three times against Julio Cesar, or finds a cutback for pele/gullit
That's my mistake , I had edited the post a few times and meant to catch that
That's good but has nothing to do with the current set up
a defensive line of Schnellinger (one of the top left backs in history, also sweeper in 1970), Desailly one of the best stoppers in the game EURO and WC winner, Chumpitaz and Dani Alves who is much better than Maicon. I can't see any similarity in the defensive lines you are trying to compare. It's like comparing Torres to Vidic and bringing in Ronaldo into the conversation.
I just can't choose this. Both teams have their plus and minus making it an even toss up. Though I'd be tempted to vote against the Cesar!
That's good but has nothing to do with the current set up
It's like comparing Torres to Vidic and bringing in Ronaldo into the conversation.
There's not much between alves and Maicon defensively. Alves the far better player going forward but he's not going to have too much success defending Carlos and bale.
I don't really see a lack of target man as an issue here because I just can't imagine the game not being end to end. For me at least, Beckham looks so dangerous because he can pick out Bale or Carlos running into space on the opposite side of the pitch or feed Gullit making a run into the box.
Playing only on the flanks makes your game predictable. That's another point I'd like to address. You're moving the ball wide all the time with an organized unit in defence. It makes it a bit easier than defending against 3 of the top forwards in history and their unpredictable genius.
End to end game suits us more to be honest. You have Eusebio, Ronaldo and Ronaldinho on the other side with plenty of space. Vidic and De Rossi IMO are David's weak points in a system that requires those center players to hold fort defensively when his full backs are up the pitch.
That and either of our midfielders are excellent passers that can pin point either of the three attackers in space.
That's the thing , you can't predict the flank because both are so strong and diverse. Is Carlos bombing past bale and getting a shot away? Is bale knocking it and running? Are they switching it to the right where you have to deal with Beckham crossing , passing , shooting and cafus overlaps.
Because of the space on the wings (and it's undeniable here, Xavi and souness are not the quickest so they'll not be able to press instantly when the ball is switched) it means that there's almost enough time to wait and see how things develop in front of them. It only takes a few extra seconds for pele and Gullit to be in more advanced positions and causing your centre backs problems.
Im not questioning chumpitaz and Desailly ability on the ground but if the ball ends up at peles feet in the box well - he scored over 1000 goals for a reason.
True I do keep coming back to Eusebio-Ronaldo on the break against De Rossi, Vidic as wel but then Baresi is there. Tough one to really call. I can see both sides getting joy depending so I'll have to keep imagining this one for now XD
Enough time to wait and see how things develop? I guess you haven't followed Barca that much when Dani Alves and Xavi dominated that side then?
Pele is a focal man in any system he played in not a target man waiting for a cross. This system doesn't suit his game at all.
Exactly. Baresi is there. De Rossi and seedorf have no real number 10 to deal with so that's going to help them focus on digging out vidic who's one of man utds greatest ever centre backs.
There is enough defensive nous from the rest of my side, and like I touched upon , I have a legendary goalkeeper.
Well Ronaldinho is also there
That should be enough to tip it in our favor.Never gets old.
if fenomeno gets 1 on 1 with the keeper the latter has no chance.
I don't think there's someone better in that aspect than him.
I wasn't aware Schuster played sweeper on occasions. My major concern was to have someone to overlap Dinho which would also allow a five man front line in possession which, I'm with Gio here, is the best use of space. Given that Schuster has played sweeper I could be even be happy with an attacking LB with that midifield three although it would be a little lightweight. If it were me I'd probably have an attacking LB play the young Schuster and drop Xavi for a proper DM.
Yeah, he also played there at Bayer, make no mistake he was formidable in the defensive phase mainly due to his positional sense but also he wasn't afraid to stuck in.
I don't think it will be a problem for width in attack with all of the three attackers capable of providing width and exploiting the space left behind the full backs.
Some quotes on Ronaldo including some of the players on the teamsheet:
“He was the best of all time, The Phenomenon. Before defenders and goalkeepers could understand what he will do, he was already far away.”
— Zinedine Zidane
“He creates a goal-scoring opportunity where it doesn’t exist. He needs no one to score; most strikers need the midfielders and their team-mates, but he does not. You give him the ball and he’ll score. He is so great with the ball, he is a phenomenon.”
— Emilio Butragueno
“Ronaldo destroyed us. Raúl was out with appendicitis, so the big man was up front on his own. The whole crowd got to their feet and gave the bloke the kind of ovation a United player would have got. The Manchester crowd knows its football and knew they’d been privileged to be there, watching Ronaldo play. I felt really proud of them in a different way that night, watching their reaction as Ronaldo walked off with his hands above his head, clapping back.”
— David Beckham
“Ronaldo, the phenomenon, was the greatest player I have ever coached.”
— Fabio Capello
“The Brazilian Ronaldo was the best player I played with. [ . . . ] The goal I scored against Fulham (during the 2002/3 season, when van Nistelrooy carried the ball from the half-line before scoring a neat finish), which was exceptional for me, for him it was more like his standard. His natural ability was far beyond anything that I’ve played alongside.”
— Ruud van Nistelrooy
“Ronaldo is the hardest attacker I’ve ever had to face. He was impossible to stop.”
— Alessandro Nesta
“The worst experience I ever had was playing against Ronaldo when we faced Internazionale in the 1998 UEFA Cup Final in Paris. He’s an incredible player. I have watched that game on video so many times since then, trying to work out what I did wrong. We lost 3-0 but I don’t think now it was my fault. Ronaldo was simply unstoppable. He is so quick he makes everyone else look as if they are standing still.”
–Alessandro Nesta
“Coaches recommended a second defensive line against him because everyone had the impression that Ronaldo would be able to lose his marker, whether it was with a sprint, or facing a defender directly.”
— Marcello Lippi
“I remember the defenders were all afraid of him. That’s the word at the time of facing him.”
— Alberto Zaccheroni
“Whether he goes left or right, you don’t see the ball. It’s magic.”
— Marcel Desailly
“Ronaldo during his first two years at Inter was phenomenal.”
— Paolo Maldini
“After Maradona the best player was Ronaldo [ . . . ] it is my opinion that he is the best of the last 20 years.”
— Jose Mourinho, after Klose broke Ronaldo’s record for goals scored in World Cup finals in 2015
“I played with him during his only season at Barcelona. It was in 1996-97, and for me that was the greatest year of his life. It was before the injury, and I really don’t think he has been the same player since. Back then he could beat a whole team on his own – he would go past players as if they weren’t there. I remember one goal when he took the ball from midfield and ran past eight players. It was crazy! I could not believe what I was seeing.”
— Laurent Blanc
“That season Ronaldo was unstoppable. He just blew you away. He scored 47 in 49 games. You watched him and wondered how he had done it; you knew you’d never seen anything like it. Barcelona won the Copa del Rey, the Cup Winners Cup and the Spanish SuperCup. It scored more than 100 league goals — Ronaldo got 34 of them. When Barcelona effectively lost the league, it did so in Alicante against Hércules. Ronaldo was back in Brazil. “That day our beast was missing,” said Pep Guardiola, saying it all. Watch the goals again and it is incredible just how often he went around the keeper — something that adds a kind of childish pleasure, a sense of sheer superiority, to his goals. People talk about walking the ball in; Ronaldo so often did. All it lacked was his getting on his hands and knees and heading the ball in from the goal line. He was slim and powerful, skillful, fast and deadly. He was ridiculously good.”
— Sid Lowe (Sports Illustrated, 2011)
“His movement off the ball was incredible. I’ve never seen anyone with better movement. He positioned himself in such a way, it would make it really easy to play alongside him. I’d like to have played with him, and I’m sure he would then have scored 2000 goals, because I would’ve given him the ball every time.”
— Zico
“The first time I saw him play was at Cruzeiro. He was still a kid. It was in a game where he ended up scoring five goals. From that point on he showed he was truly a phenomenon.”
— Cafu
Needless to say he's one of my favorite players ever
“He was the best of all time, The Phenomenon. Before defenders and goalkeepers could understand what he will do, he was already far away.”
— Zinedine Zidane
“He creates a goal-scoring opportunity where it doesn’t exist. He needs no one to score; most strikers need the midfielders and their team-mates, but he does not. You give him the ball and he’ll score. He is so great with the ball, he is a phenomenon.”
— Emilio Butragueno
“Ronaldo destroyed us. Raúl was out with appendicitis, so the big man was up front on his own. The whole crowd got to their feet and gave the bloke the kind of ovation a United player would have got. The Manchester crowd knows its football and knew they’d been privileged to be there, watching Ronaldo play. I felt really proud of them in a different way that night, watching their reaction as Ronaldo walked off with his hands above his head, clapping back.”
— David Beckham
“Ronaldo, the phenomenon, was the greatest player I have ever coached.”
— Fabio Capello
“The Brazilian Ronaldo was the best player I played with. [ . . . ] The goal I scored against Fulham (during the 2002/3 season, when van Nistelrooy carried the ball from the half-line before scoring a neat finish), which was exceptional for me, for him it was more like his standard. His natural ability was far beyond anything that I’ve played alongside.”
— Ruud van Nistelrooy
“Ronaldo is the hardest attacker I’ve ever had to face. He was impossible to stop.”
— Alessandro Nesta
“The worst experience I ever had was playing against Ronaldo when we faced Internazionale in the 1998 UEFA Cup Final in Paris. He’s an incredible player. I have watched that game on video so many times since then, trying to work out what I did wrong. We lost 3-0 but I don’t think now it was my fault. Ronaldo was simply unstoppable. He is so quick he makes everyone else look as if they are standing still.”
–Alessandro Nesta
“Coaches recommended a second defensive line against him because everyone had the impression that Ronaldo would be able to lose his marker, whether it was with a sprint, or facing a defender directly.”
— Marcello Lippi
“I remember the defenders were all afraid of him. That’s the word at the time of facing him.”
— Alberto Zaccheroni
“Whether he goes left or right, you don’t see the ball. It’s magic.”
— Marcel Desailly
“Ronaldo during his first two years at Inter was phenomenal.”
— Paolo Maldini
“After Maradona the best player was Ronaldo [ . . . ] it is my opinion that he is the best of the last 20 years.”
— Jose Mourinho, after Klose broke Ronaldo’s record for goals scored in World Cup finals in 2015
“I played with him during his only season at Barcelona. It was in 1996-97, and for me that was the greatest year of his life. It was before the injury, and I really don’t think he has been the same player since. Back then he could beat a whole team on his own – he would go past players as if they weren’t there. I remember one goal when he took the ball from midfield and ran past eight players. It was crazy! I could not believe what I was seeing.”
— Laurent Blanc
“That season Ronaldo was unstoppable. He just blew you away. He scored 47 in 49 games. You watched him and wondered how he had done it; you knew you’d never seen anything like it. Barcelona won the Copa del Rey, the Cup Winners Cup and the Spanish SuperCup. It scored more than 100 league goals — Ronaldo got 34 of them. When Barcelona effectively lost the league, it did so in Alicante against Hércules. Ronaldo was back in Brazil. “That day our beast was missing,” said Pep Guardiola, saying it all. Watch the goals again and it is incredible just how often he went around the keeper — something that adds a kind of childish pleasure, a sense of sheer superiority, to his goals. People talk about walking the ball in; Ronaldo so often did. All it lacked was his getting on his hands and knees and heading the ball in from the goal line. He was slim and powerful, skillful, fast and deadly. He was ridiculously good.”
— Sid Lowe (Sports Illustrated, 2011)
“His movement off the ball was incredible. I’ve never seen anyone with better movement. He positioned himself in such a way, it would make it really easy to play alongside him. I’d like to have played with him, and I’m sure he would then have scored 2000 goals, because I would’ve given him the ball every time.”
— Zico
“The first time I saw him play was at Cruzeiro. He was still a kid. It was in a game where he ended up scoring five goals. From that point on he showed he was truly a phenomenon.”
— Cafu
Needless to say he's one of my favorite players ever
Some quotes on Ronaldo including some of the players on the teamsheet:
“He was the best of all time, The Phenomenon. Before defenders and goalkeepers could understand what he will do, he was already far away.”
— Zinedine Zidane
“He creates a goal-scoring opportunity where it doesn’t exist. He needs no one to score; most strikers need the midfielders and their team-mates, but he does not. You give him the ball and he’ll score. He is so great with the ball, he is a phenomenon.”
— Emilio Butragueno
“Ronaldo destroyed us. Raúl was out with appendicitis, so the big man was up front on his own. The whole crowd got to their feet and gave the bloke the kind of ovation a United player would have got. The Manchester crowd knows its football and knew they’d been privileged to be there, watching Ronaldo play. I felt really proud of them in a different way that night, watching their reaction as Ronaldo walked off with his hands above his head, clapping back.”
— David Beckham
“Ronaldo, the phenomenon, was the greatest player I have ever coached.”
— Fabio Capello
“The Brazilian Ronaldo was the best player I played with. [ . . . ] The goal I scored against Fulham (during the 2002/3 season, when van Nistelrooy carried the ball from the half-line before scoring a neat finish), which was exceptional for me, for him it was more like his standard. His natural ability was far beyond anything that I’ve played alongside.”
— Ruud van Nistelrooy
“Ronaldo is the hardest attacker I’ve ever had to face. He was impossible to stop.”
— Alessandro Nesta
“The worst experience I ever had was playing against Ronaldo when we faced Internazionale in the 1998 UEFA Cup Final in Paris. He’s an incredible player. I have watched that game on video so many times since then, trying to work out what I did wrong. We lost 3-0 but I don’t think now it was my fault. Ronaldo was simply unstoppable. He is so quick he makes everyone else look as if they are standing still.”
–Alessandro Nesta
“Coaches recommended a second defensive line against him because everyone had the impression that Ronaldo would be able to lose his marker, whether it was with a sprint, or facing a defender directly.”
— Marcello Lippi
“I remember the defenders were all afraid of him. That’s the word at the time of facing him.”
— Alberto Zaccheroni
“Whether he goes left or right, you don’t see the ball. It’s magic.”
— Marcel Desailly
“Ronaldo during his first two years at Inter was phenomenal.”
— Paolo Maldini
“After Maradona the best player was Ronaldo [ . . . ] it is my opinion that he is the best of the last 20 years.”
— Jose Mourinho, after Klose broke Ronaldo’s record for goals scored in World Cup finals in 2015
“I played with him during his only season at Barcelona. It was in 1996-97, and for me that was the greatest year of his life. It was before the injury, and I really don’t think he has been the same player since. Back then he could beat a whole team on his own – he would go past players as if they weren’t there. I remember one goal when he took the ball from midfield and ran past eight players. It was crazy! I could not believe what I was seeing.”
— Laurent Blanc
“That season Ronaldo was unstoppable. He just blew you away. He scored 47 in 49 games. You watched him and wondered how he had done it; you knew you’d never seen anything like it. Barcelona won the Copa del Rey, the Cup Winners Cup and the Spanish SuperCup. It scored more than 100 league goals — Ronaldo got 34 of them. When Barcelona effectively lost the league, it did so in Alicante against Hércules. Ronaldo was back in Brazil. “That day our beast was missing,” said Pep Guardiola, saying it all. Watch the goals again and it is incredible just how often he went around the keeper — something that adds a kind of childish pleasure, a sense of sheer superiority, to his goals. People talk about walking the ball in; Ronaldo so often did. All it lacked was his getting on his hands and knees and heading the ball in from the goal line. He was slim and powerful, skillful, fast and deadly. He was ridiculously good.”
— Sid Lowe (Sports Illustrated, 2011)
“His movement off the ball was incredible. I’ve never seen anyone with better movement. He positioned himself in such a way, it would make it really easy to play alongside him. I’d like to have played with him, and I’m sure he would then have scored 2000 goals, because I would’ve given him the ball every time.”
— Zico
“The first time I saw him play was at Cruzeiro. He was still a kid. It was in a game where he ended up scoring five goals. From that point on he showed he was truly a phenomenon.”
— Cafu
Needless to say he's one of my favorite players ever
What will you do when Vidic takes a yellow card for giving him a little kick in his dodgy knee?
I don't need to be sold on Ronaldo, I'm one of the believes that injury free, there would be no need to debate who the best ever was, he'd simply be it.
Unleash Souness on PeleWhat will you do when Vidic takes a yellow card for giving him a little kick in his dodgy knee?
I thought that Ronaldinho could even surpass him. Only if he kept his focus for more than 3 years. At their peak - him, Ronaldo and Messi are the best I've seen live.
I won't find many followers probably but at his peak Ronaldo was the best there is since Maradona. Messi offers more in terms of package and also is/was unstoppable, but to me Ronaldo was tad better. If it weren't for injuries there wouldn't be even a debate.
Last edited:
I never thought of him as just a pure number 9 though. A lot of his classic goals are dribbles from a bit deeper or starting from the left. He's brilliant on the shoulder of the last defender but he excelled running AT defenders more than running in behind them IMO.
I always wondered if he had came along a bit later whether he'd be played as a LW similar to CR, since having a quick powerful right footer in that position became popular around the time of fenomenos demise
I always wondered if he had came along a bit later whether he'd be played as a LW similar to CR, since having a quick powerful right footer in that position became popular around the time of fenomenos demise
He wasn't just a pure 9. He was the #9. The complete forward to lead the line. He dropped left, right, deep or occupied the box. He revolutionized that position after Romario.He was often referred as a one man attack. All of the top seria A defenders were in awe and said he was the toughest they ever faced. And that was the golden years of seria A.
If you are looking for a perfect #9 that has it all - dribble, pace, strength, shot, technique, heading (he was quite good at it in Inter), off the ball movement - that's Ronaldo.
This would've been the smart thing to do, I expected David to start like this. Seedorf and Gullit have enough stamina, physicality and defensive nous to negate the opponent's midfield to an extent and Charles would've been a perfect number 9 for Pele to link up with (while still retaining the same ridiculous aerial dominance)
Na, it's not the smart thing in my opinion, Gullit is perfect just where he is and dropping in to make it a 4-5-1 in defence is better than leaving two up top for me.
I disagree and not only due to the game today. In a tactic and formation like this you need a focal point in attack - both to utilize Pele at his best, but to have his presence in the box, which apart from goalscoring abilities gives you something extra there and engages at least one defender. Which makes it a bit easier when a cross comes in the players rushing in from deeper positions to get in more favorable area and space in the box, compared to attackers coming in from deep into an area where the defenders have already position themselves and occupied the key areas.
Of course we might see things differently but especially when you had Charles and a versatile player like Gullit is not utilizing the best of what you have in hand.
The key area is the target Beckham is aiming for, it doesn't matter how well you set up, he'll find his man.
Gullit is versatile but putting him in CM in a 2 man midfield would have undoubtedly been a talking point in this draft and I think it's far more easy to imagine pele exceeding in a forward role than Gullit in a midfield role he didn't play too often.
You need to:
1. Maximize aerial threat, which is 95% of your attacking potential (btw, "Multi-dimensional"? It's one of the simplest teams I've ever witnessed, pass it on the wing, run, cross, repeat)
2. Limit Enigma's attacking midfield (Ronaldinho and Xavi mostly) as much as possible
In terms of maximizing attacking threat, you can say that Gullit and Charles are both very threatening in the air, but Charles will be ever present in the box, always occupying defenders and making space for Pele. Gullit, dropping deeper or on the flanks, won't be as useful for Pele or for your crosses - he himself ideally needs a pure number 9 to dovetail with. Especially when you ask him to help out the midfield.
De Rossi is a training cone for the likes of Dinho, Eusebio and Ronaldo - with their insane pace and trickery. And he's not mobile enough to play in midfield 2 with Seedorf. Now Gullit can cover significantly more ground, is a much, much, much better player and with Seedorf they will form an unconventional but very interesting midfield duo, which will have the energy and intelligence to negate Xavi/Dinho to an extent.
My tactics ARE NOT to just cross the ball ffs. Every midfielder, capable on the ball. Pele, capable of getting in behind , dribbling, playmaking. Carlos overlapping and cutting back , bale getting in behind and shooting ala v inter Milan in the San Siro. Cafu overlap and cutback, Beckham crossing / shooting due to the time afforded. A highly likelihood of a lot of fouls trying to deal with pele/ Gullit which opens up Beckham scoring from direct free kicks. Gullit dribbling , linking up play, runs into the box. There are so many different ways this team attacks, if you can't see that fair play. The tactics are what I've decided, not how you think they'll play, and as much as I will still benefit from crossing the ball into the box, it's not the only way I'm attacking FFS.
Obviously messi stuck it through his legs earlier in the game , but here we have arguably peak messi, in the box , and Vidic does this. No reason to expect he can't do similar against less talented players than messi
That's genuinely amazing
Sorry for replying to the old posts, I just came home and slowly reading through the threadI'm pretty sure that he's going to be white in this scenario (and quite possibly a girl)
95% of my attack is aerial based with a team that includes pele, Gullit, bale, Beckham , Cafu and Roberto Carlos
Considering that the latter 4 are "destroying the flanks" (and all of them are more likely to cross than to cut inside and shoot, even if Beckham and, to an extent, Bale, are capable of it) and supplying the ball to your forwards? Not sure what's funny here.95% of my attack is aerial based with a team that includes pele, Gullit, bale, Beckham , Cafu and Roberto Carlos
If you're playing through the middle, using Pele's and Gullit's dribbling and passing and whatever, that's fine, but you'd quite simply lose then.