Vidic isn't that vulnerable against fast players, it's a bit of a myth @Enigma_87
LV Monopoly draft - QF3: Enigma vs DavidG
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
Jayvin already decided
agreed. That's why I was a fan of no vote change option, combined with not able to see the score is possibly the best possible scenario in terms of fair call.
I wasn't serious , like I wasn't with my comment to antohan.
If Jayvin had changed back to me but was on the fence but the score said 15-15, I would have considered it to be 15-14 and given enigma the win ( assuming no one else voted )
I don't think so mate. It was Rio with his pace and anticipation that covered him, while Vidic was more of physical presence in the box - that's why they complimented each other in such a fine way.
That and of course the quality of the attackers in this particular game which he's up against has to be taken into account in historical and peak sense.
He didn't look good against both Torres and Eto'o I thought:
Don't get me wrong, he doesn't look out of sorts in an all time draft. I love him, but those against him just are not his cup of tea and given their quality they could get the better of him, especially with two highly attacking full backs and De Rossi in charge for protecting the CB's. It's not only Vidic per say but also the set up and the dependence on the full backs to charge forward, which leaves Vidic higher up the pitch with lot of space to exploit.
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In the dying embers of the game, Cafu is still causing havoc down the flank, and this time cuts inside instead of crossing. Graeme souness is tracking him, and has no option but to giveaway a free kick 20 yards from goal.
Julio Cesar organizes a huge defensive wall, This has to be Perfect from Beckham
Beckham lines it up ....
Julio Cesar organizes a huge defensive wall, This has to be Perfect from Beckham
Beckham lines it up ....
And also here:
Vidic loses Pedro for the first after Xavi's through pass.
Vidic loses Pedro for the first after Xavi's through pass.
It's oversimplification. Vidic isn't the best fit to deal with your forwards, but he isn't an outright vulnerability like you portrait him - this image came after the red card against Torres. He was brilliant positionally and wasn't that slow - of course he wasn't Rio or Vierchowod, but still.
@Enigma_87 shame to see 31 votes but only a handful of people comment on the game. I think there are a lot of talking points in this game that would have been brilliant with a few extra people discussing them rather than just us two.
That had very little to do with a lack of pace IMO. Looked to me like Vidic thought that Xavi was going to play in Villa, who had left Rio unsighted momentarily, and as Vidic moved across to cover Pedro took advantage of the space.
Enigma Attack v DavigG defence
For me when you see that attacking trio of Enigma.. it just screams goals.. now Cafu can definitely stop Ronaldinho, Eusebio v Carlos.. for me Carlos would struggle with Eusebio's movement, as he would drift across the final third and run past multiple players at a time - if anything if David had Schnellinger, he'd be sorted against that threat.
L. Ronaldo v Baresi is a fearsome battle, but due to the Eusebio factor.. I fear Baresi will be struggling to put out all these fires at the same time.
Schuster and Souness have decent long shot threat too, so I fancy them nicking a goal if things are tight. Xavi isn't a goal threat in this game.
Alves I don't see having a huge attacking impact because I fancy Carlos and Bale to nullify him.
Midfield battle
I really like De Rossi, I really like Gullit. I have never been a great fan of Seedorf in this type of role where in many ways he's being asked to control the game.. I don't think he has it in him and for me I think Enigma's midfield has bags of character and top level ability. I think they'd dominate proceedings here and Gullit would constantly have to drop deep to help support his midfield which in turn would leave Pele isolated.
DavidG attack v Enigma defence
I wish David G had picked John Charles up top and pushed Gullit to the right.. in a role rather like Eusebio. For me having that focal point and taking Beckham out would have won my vote.. as his attack would seem more fluid and he wouldn't need to dominate the ball as on the counter he'd have shit tonnes of pace, power and ability going forward. Imagine a side bombing forward with ball carriers like Bale, Gullit, Pele and Charles is there linking it up and bullying defenders.
As it is, his side is still a threat but I fear that Chumpitaz and Desailly are good pairing to play against Pele, Beckham for me will be locked off by Schnellinger and I think Gullit will be running around tracking back ala Rooney v Barca rather than being a constant threat going forwards.
I think Bale will struggle to beat Alves in the same way he'd tear apart a Maicon.. so all in all I think Enigma will nick it.
For me when you see that attacking trio of Enigma.. it just screams goals.. now Cafu can definitely stop Ronaldinho, Eusebio v Carlos.. for me Carlos would struggle with Eusebio's movement, as he would drift across the final third and run past multiple players at a time - if anything if David had Schnellinger, he'd be sorted against that threat.
L. Ronaldo v Baresi is a fearsome battle, but due to the Eusebio factor.. I fear Baresi will be struggling to put out all these fires at the same time.
Schuster and Souness have decent long shot threat too, so I fancy them nicking a goal if things are tight. Xavi isn't a goal threat in this game.
Alves I don't see having a huge attacking impact because I fancy Carlos and Bale to nullify him.
Midfield battle
I really like De Rossi, I really like Gullit. I have never been a great fan of Seedorf in this type of role where in many ways he's being asked to control the game.. I don't think he has it in him and for me I think Enigma's midfield has bags of character and top level ability. I think they'd dominate proceedings here and Gullit would constantly have to drop deep to help support his midfield which in turn would leave Pele isolated.
DavidG attack v Enigma defence
I wish David G had picked John Charles up top and pushed Gullit to the right.. in a role rather like Eusebio. For me having that focal point and taking Beckham out would have won my vote.. as his attack would seem more fluid and he wouldn't need to dominate the ball as on the counter he'd have shit tonnes of pace, power and ability going forward. Imagine a side bombing forward with ball carriers like Bale, Gullit, Pele and Charles is there linking it up and bullying defenders.
As it is, his side is still a threat but I fear that Chumpitaz and Desailly are good pairing to play against Pele, Beckham for me will be locked off by Schnellinger and I think Gullit will be running around tracking back ala Rooney v Barca rather than being a constant threat going forwards.
I think Bale will struggle to beat Alves in the same way he'd tear apart a Maicon.. so all in all I think Enigma will nick it.
It's a very open end to end game. The basis for my vote was based on a fine margin: if Enigma happened to score first (50-50) and forced you to chase the game then those three would tear you apart in a way you wouldn't in the alternative scenario. So the result of a toss up is an almost sure win for him and in the other 50% he is still in it.
I also looked into your options and, frankly, I think Charles should have played here. It's not just that I think Gullit in midfield would work, but I think you are underestimating Pelé's influence there when insisting you needed that third midfielder (I don't think so).
The decider though was this last page, not happy about scoreline disclosure. It's very disruptive. All you need is a few fence-sitters all being influenced into giving the vote to the one chasing the game and all of a sudden he is winning. Same goes for @MJJ in his game, I switched my vote there for that reason.
Agility then?
Pedro was his man and Evra was moving with Messi, Villa with Rio. They were moving in a pack for about 10 yards or so. Vidic definitely should've done better there IMO. Vidic was minding the offside trap there but kept his man, there was no way he could've tried to intercept a ball to Villa.I don't know to me that was his weakness - agile, skillful and fast forwards. That's from memory in his United games. He was often against more physical forwards and did great as that brings the best of his game. You and @harms might disagree of course
and surely the opposition matters. For example like anto mentioned in the beginning if I was uo against Charles and Gullit in the box, Vidic would be better fit for my team compared to Chumpitaz who I think is the better overall defender of the two.
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I don't know about you, but close to 80 posts and counting on a single thread is surely a record for me, even if we look at mega threads. Hope no hard feelings about this one, as I've said on the previous page. In no shape or form I've intended to somehow undermine or insult you or your team. It's just that we see things differently in these drafts and usually that's the beauty of it. Appologize for the over competitiveness at times.
You went a bit far with it.
" have you heard of a through ball"
" I guess you never watched Barcelona with Xavi and alves"
And the whole " look at me and tell me Vidic and de Rossi can handle my attackers" comment kinda made me stop caring to be honest. Of course your attackers would murder those two players, but coming out with a comment like that is a joke and far worse than any score reveal. I picked the players , so I'm going to defend them, asking me to just admit that they aren't up to the job in the manner you did was wrong.
Congratulations though , the attack is devastating and was all you had to focus on.
There's fast and then there's O Fenomeno, though.
To be honest I put those comments past the 3rd 4th page when the score was revealed and when you kept on the destroying on the flanks part since page 1. Of course we are going to defend our players but to me (as you were digging some older posts regarding Chumpitaz) I always tend to stick to what I have said. I've picked Chumpitaz for example because his ground game, organizational skills, pace and also positioning in which he excels. You won't see me banging on his aerial game at being comparable to Pele just because he is on the teamsheet here.
I felt we were going into circles and after the shitstorm on Julio Cesar there was some defensive attitude in it, which of course I apologize for in the heat of the moment.
I pick players I like as well, hence I also rate them - in the case of Julio Cesar he's a complete keeper that fits the team very well. Obviously he's not Maier, but I rate him top 5 in the last decade after De Gea, Neuer, Buffon and VDS. Of course you can disagree but he's not a sheep and would do fine in a solid defence having in mind his attributes. That Brazil 2014 defense is far from solid one.
To me Julio Cesar is in the tier below Mazurka, Gilmar, Fillol, etc in terms of South American keepers.
Agility then?
I don't know to me that was his weakness - agile, skillful and fast forwards. That's from memory in his United games. He was often against more physical forwards and did great as that brings the best of his game. You and @harms might disagree of course
and surely the opposition matters. For example like anto mentioned in the beginning if I was uo against Charles and Gullit in the box, Vidic would be better fit for my team compared to Chumpitaz who I think is the better overall defender of the two.
Vidic was keeping track of Pedro's movements at 0:49 in that video, at 0:50 Rio lost track of where Villa was and Vidic took a step to his right in anticipation of Xavi playing Villa in. He wouldn't have intercepted the pass, but he could have made a last-ditch tackle or block. Of course Xavi being Xavi, he played in Pedro instead. The goal wasn't really a product of a defensive mistake IMO, more of a natural end result of Xavi getting behind our midfield and having time to pick his pass. If Vidic had stuck close to Pedro Xavi would probably just have played in Villa instead.
I do agree that in so far as he has a weakness its fast and skillful forwards, I just agree wih harms that it gets blown way out of proportion at times. Not here though, as Eusebio and Ronaldo are simply as good as it gets in that regard, and they'd get the run on David's midfield quite a few times too. I did come in to vote for you in the end FWIW but I missed the deadline by 2 fecking minutes! Glad it didn't make a difference in the end.
No problem mate. I thought Vidic stepped towards the goal and thought Rio would play the offside trap so he stepped back and lost Pedro in the meantime, as he ran with his back to him, which I found odd at the time. For example look Rio's body position and how more prepared is he to intercept a potential pass to Villa or cover the space, while Vidic just couldn't turn and lost both his man and the outside channel. Xavi wasn't even sprinting that fast, Vidic should've been with his back to the goal facing him IMO.
Maybe there is some selective memories, but Torres, Eto'o turning him 2 years earlier and then Messi, Villa, Pedro as a frontline had me bricking it at the time. It was unfortunate as had we scored first and with a deeper line on counter attacks maybe, just maybe we could've had the chance to beat them at the time.
Oh, come on, kiss and make up
I have no hard feelings towards @DavidG hopefully he feels the same
It was a bit like Hillary and Trump last night without the racism, misogyny and the likes.Re the Pedro goal. The discussion's been had but it's not really Vidic's fault. The major failure in that goal is the whole midfield getting caught the wrong side of play. Its a 4v4 long before Vidic is even engaged, but I do think they should have stepped up earlier. One of those goals that were inevitable given Ferguson's tactics and the quality of the opposition.
I have no hard feelings towards @DavidG hopefully he feels the same
Don't be silly, of course there are no hard feelings
cheers.
vs
16. De Rossi- Probably the weakest player on the field, but no push-over, the one club man is the perfect example of a modern defensive midfielder and will be focussing on winning the ball back and using his excellent distribution to get the ball to the more creative players on the team. Has the tactical discipline to perform his role at a high level for 90 mins.
DavidG shot himself in the foot here.
On a more serious note, great thread to read