He is not a winger, play him there for the whole season and it still wont do him much good, it's just ruining the rythmn he had/has up front for club and country.
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No, he is mismanaging them, I dont think it's good for under 20 years old guys to so openly criticise them or shoehorn other players who arent doing much better or not giving them chances in there favourable positions.
We dont really play a front three most of the time, and for example yes. We have barely seen Rashford up top this season and not even in cameo's, I dont know why Zlatan should be so immune for the bench, if he isnt playing well and we maybe need something else up front, what would be so.bad about trying Rashford up there who was improving weekly up front? The only thing we have now is a short term option who isnt even that good (RvP - like) and slowing down the development of long term options (Rashford and Martial). Do we want to start all over again from what LvG tried to build? The Bailly, Pogba, Miki additions were brilliant, but Zlatan could be very pointless in hindsight.
It's funny cause that's now a couple of our managers that not been too complimentary of him....
I understand your view but I don't agree with you. Shaw was phenomenal in his short stint last season, as close as world class you can get for his age. But unfortunately for him after his injury he don't look the same player any more. Acceleration, speed and self confidence is at least one level below, maybe more. His technique suffers because of this, his decision making is worse without confidence.
Maybe one day he will recoup all this and be that young promising superstar we all want him to be, maybe not. But until then, and this is the important part, he should at the moment listen to his manager and give his all even when it's painful and gloomy.
Why? If it's a mental barrier he needs to challenge himself in order to regain his confidence. If it's physical then he needs to gets as match fit as possible, the best way to do this is to play games.
Regarding Mourinho you must have faith in his decisions. If Shaw was declared fit by our doctors then our manager is in his right to expect him to play, what else? If he had some over weight then it's the players obligation to do his best to shape up asap. Don't you agree?
I don't think for a second that José is so stupid that he ignored his medical staffs advice and ask Luke to play if he's not physically ready. If we (the club and supporters) don't trust Mourinho in this then they (the club) must fire him with a immidiately effect. No other options available.
When Luke Shaw declare himself not fit to play, physically or mentally, despite our medical teams clearance then he challenge his manager in so many levels. Authority, decision making, loyalty and so one. But most important he refuse to do his job. United pay him to play football, not hanging around and chill and by himself decide when to play or not. Sorry my friend but this isn't Sunday league, Shaw earns a fortune and with that comes obligations.
If the relationship and trust is broken between a manager and a player then the player has to go, not the other way around.
I don't like that Mourinho going public regarding our players problems, not a wise thing to because it could easily backfire, but if he does the club and we supporters has to back him all the way, what else?
If it's true that Shaw's camp has briefed parts of the media then he needs new advisers. Totally wrong way to go. He can never win this by challenging his manager in public.
Like I said before. Luke Shaw should ask for a private meeting with his manager, ask for piece and follow his managers advice. Mourinho will threat him good, he will listen and understand and in the end both will benefit from this conversation. Trust me in this, this is the best solution regarding the circumstances.
We all want him back to his best.
Mourinho wants instant success everywhere he goes. Young players arent compatible with that in 90% of cases. Would DDG have lasted under Mourinho?
So what would you do? play them every game non stop?
You mean back in his early days when the all the journos were slating him, all the pundits were laughing at his mistakes and the vast majority of the posters on here believed that he was just another of Ferguson's flops in the transfer market? Yes, he would have survived because professional and experienced managers who have the chance to watch their players every day in training can usually identify a world class prospect easier than the average fan.
It's not about youth players, what you said applies to all players: Only the cream of the crop, in terms of both skills and mentality, make the cut at the big clubs. And no athlete is born ready to achieve greatness, they all have to go through the process of developing their abilities and coping with all sorts of difficulties. If Mourinho can take over a bunch of unknown fellas and lead them to back to back European Cups or turn Inter's "natural born losers" to CL winners, if he can convince his Chelsea players that they can overthrow United and Arsenal, i'm sure he can help young (and not so young) players understand what it takes to be at the very top in their profession. It's not like any of those three sides was filled with superstars and caused fear (on paper) to their rivals.
But the learning process, the maturing process if you like, is a binary channel between the player and the manager. A good teacher won't do much good when the student believes that he's got nothing more to learn or when, for various reasons, isn't willing to push himself even more. As i mentioned, no one is born a world class player. In our case the players have already burned all their cards, the incompetent teacher is gone (Moyes), the manager who tried to implement a style they weren't familiar with/didn't like or think it suited them is also gone (LvG) and now they have one of the very best managers to train them and implement a style that's way more compatible to the particularities of the English game. So, when leaks about the "distant Jose" pop up, people are right to ask: What the heck, again?
Plus this treatment of instant success as some kind of plague is ridiculous. There's not a single top manager in the world at any team sport whose job isn't based on results. Ferguson isn't known as the best manager in the world for the class of '92 but for winning 13 PL and three European titles.
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He "isn't even that good"?..... really?! But he's "RvP like" (who basically won us a league title)?
Loads of past players have come out to say how much Zlatan helped them (and the public perception is different in training) and I think those two will learn a sh!tload from watching Zlatan.
Really hope this whole episode makes him put his head down, work hard like last time and come back strong.
Personally don't think Shaw is anywhere near as good as he thinks he is. People seem to think he's a cert to be a world class left back.. he is heavily reliant on his pace and power, if that is not there in his game.. he isn't that much of a big talent on the ball or off it as we saw against Navas.
For Luke Shaw to be the player we want him to be he has to be at his absolute fittest, otherwise he's not much of a player.. very similar to Wayne Rooney in that respect. Last thing we want at full back is a fattie.. we need a superhuman athlete on both wing back positions if we are to counter with pace, not to mention I'd like full backs with greater dribbling and crossing skill than we have seen from Shaw.
Before the injury we were just about seeing him implement this into his game, but if he is psychologically still recovering.. there is no guarantee that he will be the same player again and as harsh as it sounds, we need to be winning EPL and CL titles.. we can't afford to give a left back 2 years to recover from an injury as it is hampering the rest of the squad from reaching its potential.. especially when the safer bet is to go out there and buy yourself a new left back.
Right now if you had to gamble on Luke Shaw getting fit and becoming a top left back, or spending £20m right now and getting yourself a Ricardo Rodriguez.. you could suddenly have a proper regular left back who can be relied upon. Mourinho waits for no man.
For Luke Shaw to be the player we want him to be he has to be at his absolute fittest, otherwise he's not much of a player.. very similar to Wayne Rooney in that respect. Last thing we want at full back is a fattie.. we need a superhuman athlete on both wing back positions if we are to counter with pace, not to mention I'd like full backs with greater dribbling and crossing skill than we have seen from Shaw.
Before the injury we were just about seeing him implement this into his game, but if he is psychologically still recovering.. there is no guarantee that he will be the same player again and as harsh as it sounds, we need to be winning EPL and CL titles.. we can't afford to give a left back 2 years to recover from an injury as it is hampering the rest of the squad from reaching its potential.. especially when the safer bet is to go out there and buy yourself a new left back.
Right now if you had to gamble on Luke Shaw getting fit and becoming a top left back, or spending £20m right now and getting yourself a Ricardo Rodriguez.. you could suddenly have a proper regular left back who can be relied upon. Mourinho waits for no man.
He can also convince champions Chelsea that they are now relegation battling losers. He can also win La Liga by 9 points, go into the season as champions, lose the dressing room and finish 15 points behind the team you finished above the season before. Inter Milan natural born losers? They had won 5 Serie A titles in a row so that's a weird statement to call multiple title winners losers.
And He did well at helping young players like De Bruyne and Lukaku understand what it takes to be at the very top, so well in fact that they flourished soon as they left him and got faith put in them by other managers. I guess 10 minutes is enough.
regarding squads not "filled with superstars." Chelsea having already been in the top 2 in the league (better than 90% of their rivals), possessing players like Duff, Lamps, Makalele, Gallas, Cole, then went and spent a further fortune on Carvalho, Drogba, Kezman and Robben. Inter Milan had the likes of Eto'o Lucio Samuel Zanetti, Maicon, Sneidjer. They are top players so I dunno why you are making out like they were average squads, despite that they were all champions
Agreed completely. He is majorly overrated on here probably because he's young and English. He's not an attacking full back as he can't beat a man, dribble, cross, assist or score. His corners aren't good and nor does he take free kicks. He hasn't formed good partnerships with any of our wingers.
Defensively he's a good tackler and fast but positionally weak and doesn't stop crosses coming in. He was all potential but this injury may well have robbed him of turning that potential into realised ability. We're not in the top 4 and have been leaking goals with a defense that is poor in both first team but particularly in depth. We can't afford to carry him outscore the goals he makes us concede either through his mistakes or his not playing. We don't have this luxury.
When you compare him to say Alaba or Marcelo.. he basically doesn't have the potential to ever be as good as them going forward imo.. and then when you add the fact that recently his defensive work has been shoddy, you can see why the manager is then thinking he is dispensable and needs to really put his head down.
His brothers comments on twitter told me that this is a player who has brought into the hype. People can say that his brothers actions do not reflect on Luke himself but that is bullshit for me.. you can guarantee that Luke talks about his thoughts to his brother, it is only natural.
I think Mourinho will give him one last chance as the kid is young but my gut feeling tells me this kid is a goner by end of the season.
Martial is another huge worry for me, his attitude and demeanor.. and the fact he gets dropped alot, suggests that this is another player who Jose doesn't fancy in terms of personality or application. At the same time, this guy is less replaceable and we really could go to the next level if he performs, so I think Mourinho will be more patient in tweaking the kids mindset but he won't wait for long.
I like Luke Shaw, I rate him and would be sickened if he left the club, but I don't want to read about how he's baffled about criticism from his coach. I don't want to read anything he's said unless he's been instructed by the club to speak to the press.
Shut up, do your job. Go in to work every day and give it everything you have to earn the enormous salary you are receiving and uphold the history of this club.
Other than that keep your mouth shut. Oh, and wear proper pants when you do have to be seen in public.
Shut up, do your job. Go in to work every day and give it everything you have to earn the enormous salary you are receiving and uphold the history of this club.
Other than that keep your mouth shut. Oh, and wear proper pants when you do have to be seen in public.
No one had Chelsea, during his first year there, as first favorites for the title. Wenger's invincibles and United were the teams to beat and no one had predicted that Chelsea would take the PL by storm. Chelsea had never seriously challenged for the title before Mourinho came. The same thing applies to Inter, no one believed they would win the CL, especially after Mourinho's underwhelming European campaign in his first season there. They were known globally as losers living under the shadow of AC Milan, maybe it's you who didn't know that. I'm not saying they were average squads but they were nowhere near the Barcelona, Real or Bayern teams we see nowadays. Mourinho took these teams to the highest level. And i think i'm being fair as i didn't mention Real Madrid where he indeed had a team full of superstars.
For every De Bruyne and Lukaku (who i don't rate highly) there are countless players who owe their careers to him: Most of his Chelsea players reached the highest level playing under him, the best players of his Porto side became well known and earned big wages after the success he brought to the club and most of his Inter team played their best football under Mourinho. Klopp almost got BvB relegated but he's everybody's sweetheart. Pep showed Hart the door in the most unfashionable way but no one is questioning his actions. Why are we suddenly so precious about our own bunch?
Every manager has his ups and downs, it's the overall summary that counts. And Mourinho is a notorious winner who knows how to instill a winning mentality. Depsite his antics, no one can take that away from him. And these players have already had their way with two previous managers, so for now, while i don't complete agree with Mourinho's handling of the situation, i choose to be on his side when he says he wants to set high standards and some players aren't responding well to that.
Harsh but fair.Do we actually have any direct quotes from Shaw saying this or footage of this interview?
Is there even one young player at the club who is playing well under Mou? He's giving them playing time but all of them (apart from Pogba who is a big star anyway) seem to struggle at the moment. Maybe this is just a coincidence. But Martial is a shadow of his former self. Rashford isn't the same player either, probably because he isn't a winger in the first place. Shaw's confidence looks shattered.
If Mou is a success with Zlatan and Rooney, people won't complain much. Results come first, especially after several yeas of a lack of success on the pitch. But if he fails to make the CL with them, the criticisms will be harsh, very harsh. For there is absolutely no point to play oldish players and fail to achieve minimal targets.
If Mou is a success with Zlatan and Rooney, people won't complain much. Results come first, especially after several yeas of a lack of success on the pitch. But if he fails to make the CL with them, the criticisms will be harsh, very harsh. For there is absolutely no point to play oldish players and fail to achieve minimal targets.
When a whole host of papers and websites, including The Telegraph and the Guardian open with the same story, using the same words, on the same day, it smacks of the same shite we've seen before, with players or their agents briefing their mates in the press to get the story they want out there.
So, no then.
You're reading it wrongly, he isnt RVP like. He isnt a short term solution that will fire us to a title.
And that's such bullocks, they say the same about Rooney, how they learn so much from him etc etc, it's one of those standard things. But you learn most by playing yourself.
Except Chelsea had already finished above Man Utd the previous season. Once Chelsea won the lottery, the game had changed. we may not have expected them to dominate but everyone recognised they had an unfair advantage by spending £150 million per season. Even Real Madrid could not compete with this. they were now the biggest spenders. Even under Ranieri they reached the Champions League Semi finals. perhaps you forgot? So a 2nd placed league finish, millions in the bank and Champions League Semi Finalists. surely anyone with half a brain would see them as challengers. It was only a matter of time with the Oligarch backing them. Ranieri was a loser. They even knocked out "Les Invicibles" in the champions league.
Inter Milan were dominant Italian Champions from 2006-2010 so how can they be global losers? Maybe you thought that. Yes they only ever reached champions league quarters so for me that was his last great tactical success. They took the best players from Serie A like Crespo, Zlatan, Adriano, Vieira, Walter Samuel. AC Milan were cheaters and never did much in Serie A during that period coming 4th, 5th etc. They were like Liverpool, good in Europe, shit in the league. Inter were Italy's Man Utd of the 90's. Great in the league, shit in Europe.
During the Inter Champions League win, Bayern weren't that strong, neither were Real. I felt Bayern was a poor Bayern side who we should have beat. fair dues to Jose but he won it at an ideal time. The Barca win basically won him the tournament. Lyon were in the Semi's, Bordeaux, Moscow etc were in the quarters. it was a far weaker comp than today.
That's not how it works. Our players don't have the courage to say things explicitly in public.
They use their mouthpieces to write it so people like you will stick up for them. Then we sack another coach, call him a disaster and hope that somehow the same thing isn't going to happen under the next one.
I agree with your concerns. If the results on the pitch don't improve this will all backfire on him in a very bad way. It's also strange that it's the first time he hasn't hit the ground running at a job. While it's way too simplistic (or convenient for those who didn't want him here in the first place) to suggest that he's lost the plot, i think we have to wait and see how this all pans out. For a manager who wants to create a siege mentality, he's taken quite a risk.
As for our youngsters, i believe each case is different. I don't agree, for instance, that Rashford, is playing badly. He's very young and he's now learning how to cover a lot more ground, how to get past opponents and how to figure out ways of getting in dangerous areas in the box while playing in the three positions behind the forward. Once he gets there, his killer instinct in front of the goal will become even more valuable to us. With Shaw and Martial i believe it's a psychological problem more than anything else. Martial looked so relieved after the goal against Stoke and he gave me the impression that he just wants some things he tries on the pitch to go his way in order to get his confidence back. As for Shaw, we'll see what happens when all the dust has settled down.
No ofcourse not, give them an honest chance yes (everyone). If someone isnt performing, it's no sin to take them off and substitute someone else for example. Why does Ibra and last season Rooney have to be undroppable or unbenchable. Rashford was doing well under van Gaal, improving, doing well with the NT, well with the reserves for England, started the season well here and then never gets a chance up top again just to play Ibra every match, and the whole match every week whilst he is missing chances after chance, I just dont get that. While Martial gets dropped after every poor game and even after good games.
The fact is, and everyone was saying it last season is that our club can not be reliant on 19 year olds to get us results.
Yes they have been brilliant in spells, Rashford, Martial, Shaw as stand outs last season got us out of some sticky situations but it was last chance saloon for us, we now have a squad and players to allow these guys to develop naturally. Not only that but these players have suffered mentally due to the over -reliance on them, they believe they are starters week in- week out and to be completely honest at that age they should be getting their heads down, learning from senior players and developing their game.
Just because they havent been world beaters means nothing this season and Shaw especially should know that football moves fast and you can be easily discarded at a club like ours, we are not in a position to be precious over young talents, as it stands Blind has shown far more as has Darmian in his game vs Swansea than Shaw and if he is bottling out of line ups then its a sad indictment of where he is mentally. I cant actually remember the last time its happened at United and we are certainly not used to this as a fan base.
As for the outrage being brought up in the media over "pain-killing" injections, yeah, haha, nice try 80% of the premier league play with those every week. Are we supposed to feel sorry for them?
Or we have a coach who hangs his players out to dry in public to deflect blame from himself. Then papers run plausible stories saying that players are happy due to criticism with no direct quotes or evidence. People like you who are on the coaches side then use these stories as a stick to beat the players and further deflect any blame from the coach.
Back in 2005 United and Arsenal were the teams to beat, United had finished outside the top two only once and Arsenal had won the title with zero defeats. Ranieri got them to second place in the previous season but they were never title contenders. They became exactly that with Roman's money and Mourinho's managerial ability. If that wasn't the case all the sugar daddies wouldn't hire managers, they would sit on the bench themselves. His Chelsea side broke all kind of records in the PL while competing with the greatest manager of all time and Wenger at his absolute peak.
As for Inter, i already mentioned that Milan were the most successful team in Italy in the last 25 years until 2010. Inter had never trouble breaking the bank to buy world class players. They were a joke team in Europe despite all the money thrown in the first team and the fact that their city rivals were winning one European title after the other had labelled them as losers. I didn't make the term up, that's how it is. Plus Mourinho isn't considered to be a success at Inter because he won them two more Serie A titles, he's known for delivering the trophy only Herrera had won before in the history of the club. That surely must account for something, especially when no one considers you a contender at the start of the season.
They beat Pep's Barca, that's enough for me to say they deserved it. They deserved it far more than Real Madrid last season who faced the likes of Roma, Wolfsburg and City while Atletico did all the hard work.
I get it that you don't rate him but it's not necessary to take every argument to extreme just to satisfy those feelings. Plus defending him isn't exactly how i want to spend my time...
So far the only time Luke Shaw has actually looked like the player he supposedly is, was for about 5 games last season before his injury. Yes the injury was unfortunate and it will take time and hard work for him to get back to his best, and people should recognise that...but those people include Luck Shaw.
I don't want to be hearing about him not wanting to play, or being baffled by the hardships of being a professional athlete, or his brother whining on twitter and slagging off his team mates.
More than one coach had already questioned his fitness and now another is questioning his mental strength. He'd do well to listen as it might actually get him somewhere in the long run.
The fact is Luke Shaw hasn't actually yet proven anything to anyone, yet from what you read you'd think he has nothing left to prove to anyone.
The only time we should be seeing or hearing about Luke Shaw is when he's on the pitch. The fuss is getting annoying.
I don't want to be hearing about him not wanting to play, or being baffled by the hardships of being a professional athlete, or his brother whining on twitter and slagging off his team mates.
More than one coach had already questioned his fitness and now another is questioning his mental strength. He'd do well to listen as it might actually get him somewhere in the long run.
The fact is Luke Shaw hasn't actually yet proven anything to anyone, yet from what you read you'd think he has nothing left to prove to anyone.
The only time we should be seeing or hearing about Luke Shaw is when he's on the pitch. The fuss is getting annoying.
I backed the players under Moyes. I backed them again under Van Gaal. They lost that backing at the West Ham game last year and have lost us more several times since.
I was kind of playing on your name here, testing the strength of your arguments.Back in 2005 United and Arsenal were the teams to beat, United had finished outside the top two only once and Arsenal had won the title with zero defeats. Ranieri got them to second place in the previous season but they were never title contenders. They became exactly that with Roman's money and Mourinho's managerial ability. If that wasn't the case all the sugar daddies wouldn't hire managers, they would sit on the bench themselves. His Chelsea side broke all kind of records in the PL while competing with the greatest manager of all time and Wenger at his absolute peak.
As for Inter, i already mentioned that Milan were the most successful team in Italy in the last 25 years until 2010. Inter had never trouble breaking the bank to buy world class players. They were a joke team in Europe despite all the money thrown in the first team and the fact that their city rivals were winning one European title after the other had labelled them as losers. I didn't make the term up, that's how it is. Plus Mourinho isn't considered to be a success at Inter because he won them two more Serie A titles, he's known for delivering the trophy only Herrera had won before in the history of the club. That surely must account for something, especially when no one considers you a contender at the start of the season.
They beat Pep's Barca, that's enough for me to say they deserved it. They deserved it far more than Real Madrid last season who faced the likes of Roma, Wolfsburg and City while Atletico did all the hard work.
I get it that you don't rate him but it's not necessary to take every argument to extreme just to satisfy those feelings. Plus defending him isn't exactly how i want to spend my time...
Jamie Jackson has a follow up piece on Luke Shaw's fitness. Seems to know a lot about how Shaw is thinking and feeling these days...
Ah sorry, when you put "RvP like", I read it as "RvP like" but I read it wrongly?
That's odd as all of the Co92 said they learned so much from watching Eric (in fact some of the older players did too) and later players said same thing about Ronny but they were all talking bollocks? Gotcha.
Now anyone saying they learn from watching Rooney I'd agree was bollocks.... unless it's "How not to".
Exactly this. Even last season before his injury he was raw potential, looking fantastic one minute and getting caught horribly out of position the next. He has huge potential but right now that's it. He needs to shut up and do what the most successful manager on in the planet tells him to do.
He really isn't.
I think what's happened, is that you've beaten a second string Barca team in the CL group stages and forgotten that your PL form over the last 5 matches is EXACTLY the same as Utd's - 1 win, 3 draws, 1 loss.
So, your super-manager isn't doing any better than our 'declining' Mourinho over the last 5 matches!
You're just 6 points ahead, despite us being 'in crisis'.
I don't think that Martial has such a bad attitude? He definitely needs a kick up the arse but Louis did it last season and Martial had no problem with it as he's said in his interviews. In fact, what was clear was that Martial trusted that LVG believed in him and his talent. As you said, his talent's worth persevering with. I have to admit I'm worried that Jose doesn't know how to handle these younger players. They need to be under manners 100%, but you also need to be a little more nuanced in your approach in getting the best out of them and I wonder if Jose is patient enough. We as a club cannot afford for him to alienate the young talented players, it would be really stupid.
I think the issue with Shaw is he has not recovered from his leg break psychologically rather than physically.
You might feel empathy with him on that but on the other hand he is a highly paid professional athlete and we need him to do a job.
You might feel empathy with him on that but on the other hand he is a highly paid professional athlete and we need him to do a job.
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