Against tougher opponents with an attacking winger and a full-back there is a debate to had preferring Valencia over Nani, due to his defensive work.
Luis Nani | 2013/14 Performances
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True, but then when Valencia starts to slack on his defensive work like against City, the debate lessens...
Nani's defensive work has always been underrated though. He's excellent at using his pace to get back and cover his full back. It's one of those assumptions people seem to make that being a flair attacking winger, he must leave his fullback constantly exposed but it's just not the case.
Yh definitely. The Liverpool game won't have helped that perception of him but I think there may have been some confusion in general between the wingers and fullbacks over who should pick up their wingbacks. But in general his defensive contribution whilst not at Valencia's level whos generally one of the better ones around, is certainly better than average.
I've not said said he doesn't fulfil his defensive duties. I just don't think he is as good as Valencia in that department. The fact Valencia has been played at full-back on occasions is a testimony to his defensive prowess.
Sometimes attack is the best form of defence. If Nani shows his best form, then no matter how attacking the opposition full-back he'll be pinned back in his own half too scared of what Nani might do if he gets caught up the pitch.
That said, Valencia does more than the traditional defending you might expect from a winger. Against Chelsea (a performance that is being portrayed by many as completely unacceptable) he made more tackles than any other player on the pitch. That's the kind of workrate and discipline that explains why managers are so keen to play him even if the attacking side of his game is off. I think that's peen particularly important while we've been trying to find the right balance in central midfield.
That said, Valencia does more than the traditional defending you might expect from a winger. Against Chelsea (a performance that is being portrayed by many as completely unacceptable) he made more tackles than any other player on the pitch. That's the kind of workrate and discipline that explains why managers are so keen to play him even if the attacking side of his game is off. I think that's peen particularly important while we've been trying to find the right balance in central midfield.
Spot on.
The thing is if you compare to any of the other big teams attackers, does Nani offer any less cover than Silva, nasri, hazard, oscar, navas, walcott, carzola etc? For me no. I can see the argument when it was carrick and clev/ando/giggs/scholes in the middle, but with fellaini I don't see how our midfield is any less solid then the other teams respective midfields, especially as we also have Rooney helping, so I can't see why but for a particularly tough game it should be an issue with Nani there, or even kagawa who I would say works at least as hard as many of those other attackers.
If we're honest, you pick Valencia ahead of Nani to track back a bit more and usually Valencia keeps the ball a bit better with his passing. Both easily transfered to the left. As Abou mentioned, Valencia had a brief appearance on the left and he was fine there. Welbeck and Kagawa both play on the left without really crossing, Welbeck especially. He goes the old Arsenal way and finds a short pass instead.
This thread always turns into Valencia v Nani, always.
Remember that season when they were both amazing? 
When Fellaini's a bit more settled (and/or Jones continues his current rate of improvement?) then I'm sure Moyes will feel a lot more confident going into big games with Nani and Kagawa (or even Zaha and Januzaj) as his two wingers. In the opening games, though, you can understand his reluctance to go with flair players out wide - especially as he came out and said that our central midfield was under-cooked.
Of course, losing first Rafael and then Jones was a kick in the balls, as it meant our right back wasn't very attacking either.
I'd have like to see him maybe have played three central midfielders in one or two of those fixtures but that means breaking up the Rooney/RvP partnership that looked like becoming so potent.
Just goes to show, this foootball management lark is kind of complicated...
No it isn't, I won the league in my first season in Football Manager 2013, if that's not proof that it's easy then I dunno what is.
Play Nani and force their attacking winger to track back. I really think this whole Valencia is a great defensive winger and is more reliable thing is overplayed greatly. With Nani in the side, you'll keep the ball more and have to defend less furthermore the other side will be worried about dealing with the unpredictability Nani provides.
Remember that season when they were both amazing?
They have both gone through really good patches in the same season, but they were hardly ever amazing at the same time. Unless my memory fails me.
Yeah we've never really had both at their best at the same time, annoyingly, usually due to injuries.
Well yeah, but I mean in the same games. Can you recall many games when both of them were on top form on both wings?
I think the difference though is that kagawa/welbeck on the left may cut inside more often than not but they're not as unwilling to use their left foot as Valencia is. I think it's one thing to cut inside and another to go to the lengths Valencia does at times to avoid using his left.
That's what I'm hoping, I think it was fair enough that he didn't want to risk it, although I'd still say that Carrick-Clev-Welbeck/Rooney as your centre, with a flair player like Nani on one flank is no weaker defensively than what Chelsea/Arsenal put out, but still agree that you can understand why he would be cautious with that midifeld in place.
That's right for 10/11 and 11/12. Ironically, Nani's best form started when Valencia picked up an injury. And Valencia's best form in 11/12 started when Nani picked up an injury.
Remember that season when they were both amazing?
That's the season Bayern knocked us out of Europe, yeah?
"The good old days of great wing play"
That's the season Bayern knocked us out of Europe, yeah?
"The good old days of great wing play"
When Nani and Valencia were playing better than Robben and Ribery yeah. And Nani ended up playing as a lone striker and doing quite well with 10 men
Valencia has been horrible in his defending this season. The first half hour against Leverkusen was the worst I have seen for one of our wingers in years.
He was great defensively against Chelsea, I don't remember him being that bad against Lev, def poor against City.
If I remember correctly United hardly let Leverkusen have a kick on goal during that time.
But would you give games to him on the left over Januzaj? It's already hard enough to step up to the first team at United, let alone getting what few opportunities you have in a less familiar role. With so many vying for the RW slot and the LW one more open to suitors I'd expect Januzaj getting more gametime, that's all. That's an objective observation independent of what their relative potential may be or how much the manager may rate either, which we don't know.
No, it isn't, otherwise we wouldn't have played Valencia as much as we have! Defensive considerations should subside a bit with a stronger midfield though so unless Valencia starts recovering his form I could see us going for more fluid and occasionally interchanging wingers. Certainly more foten than we have in the last few seasons.
He is above average in that department for a player of his talent. Valencia doesn't just track back though, he actually tackles, heads and sticks to his man in defensive phases... He really puts in a pretty damn good defensive shift much like a defender would (City aside). You would never expect Nani to be tracking someone charging at the far post to head from a cross. You wouldn't expect a winger to go that far in his commitment and disciplined approach to defending, but Valencia actually does it.
I disagree. Valencia is on and off defensively. City wasn't the first time Valencia has watched overlaps happen and not done anything. I think he's great defensively when he's playing right back, when he actually IS the defender, but when he's on the wing, he's very sloppy at committing defensively, watching the opposing full back and sticking to him etc. Nani is a little more consistent on that front, and he's fair good at getting stuck in with tackles too.
With Rafael back the defensive duties are much less a concern and Nani should start on Saturday ahead of Valencia for me, Valencia offers you more defensively yes but we need to put a run of good results together now and Nani offers you so much more offensively. He switches flanks, can go inside or outside the fullback and his driven shots when cutting in can be deadly. Get him played and get him in form now before we start running into tough fixtures again, I can't be arsed listening to the "no penetration" gripes all season, I would do the same with Kagawa too but that's another thread.
Exactly, & this is the main reason a winger is there for. The defensive duties are part of it, for sure, but not the be all & end all as some people appear to to imply.
If your winger isn't doing these things (e.g. Young/Valencia) the defensive bit becomes a bit irrelevant, as far as I'm concerned. That's the main duty of the defenders, with the winger providing some cover when required, which Nani does more than adequately. The fullback is your defensive 'winger', the traditional winger should be an offensive position.
I think against the like of City who do like to push the fullback on there is a place for picking your winger based on his defensive duties, but totally agree that your winger should be an offensive threat and his main task is to force the opposition back toward his own goal. Even pressing the opposition fullback high up the pitch to allow your own fullback to advance, City did exactly that on Sunday and we became unstuck. Opponents like West Brom we should look to press a bit higher and look for the overlap but Albion looked dangerous against albeit a weakened Arsenal the other night.
Young and Nani can both play either flank and would offer us an unpredictability in attack that you can't really get with Valencia glued to the right wing, It's just a pity Young doesn't look up to the task.
So about this Januzaj guy
Young and Nani can both play either flank and would offer us an unpredictability in attack that you can't really get with Valencia glued to the right wing, It's just a pity Young doesn't look up to the task.
So about this Januzaj guy
We paid £15M for Zaha, why don't we play him?
We may well start to, Moyes has so far played the safe card and it has worked to a degree, time now to start finding his best team and for me Nani and Valencia should be starters but we do have a few options and you need to rotate to keep the squad fresh.
Zaha does have an air of youth about him though and when you compare him to Janujaz of similar age the difference in maturity is evident.
We probably expected Nani to be gone or winding down his contract. Young should have gone this Summer tbh.
Edit: but then, Nani signed on quite late
Well obviously because he's not good enough yet. Not every player is signed with an expectation that he will instantly start for the first team.
Not sure about that Pogue the boy looks a bag of tricks.
That's what happens when you're desperate to dismiss a player.
He was gash against City and that's about that.
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