three people in this thread?! 
Well that's that then... I'm sorry to have wasted your time...
Luis Nani | 2011/12 Performances
- Thread starter Kelvin
- Start date
- Status
three people in this thread?! Well that's that then... I'm sorry to have wasted your time...
I don't think the decision was a no brainer but I do think it was the right one at the time. Nani is a fecking excellent player but he had been a shadow of his usual self leading up to the game. Valencia, conversely, had been absolutely fantastic. He absolutely destroyed Cashley Cole in the Chelsea game. Which was a massive boost to his chance of getting picked in the CL final. Would have been very harsh to drop him for a player that was playing so poorly.
What the hell are you on about now? I've never met the bloke but he seems like a nice, humble guy in all the interviews I've seen. Why on earth would I hate him?
Because you don't outright think he should of started the CL final....It made me think you hated him too tbh.
Well Berba is good form was dropped for Rooney in horrendous form at one point in the season.
I do think if Fergie had to make a same decision this season, that is pick between an off colour Nani and in form Valenica, he will IMO go for the former.
Also people are talking shit that Nani was poor in every game after the Carragher tackle. I am not going to do the tedious and go through every game but he had some good games after that, Valencia was better yes, but Nani was not poor throughout.
The last point is to revive the Nani left/right debate. For me, and plenty will disagree, it is becoming fast undeniable that Nani is better on right than left. And IMO him shifting to left for Valencia last season did play a part in him losing form.
Funnily enough, I still rate Valenica as the second best winger in the club. Young comes third for me after these two....
I do think if Fergie had to make a same decision this season, that is pick between an off colour Nani and in form Valenica, he will IMO go for the former.
Also people are talking shit that Nani was poor in every game after the Carragher tackle. I am not going to do the tedious and go through every game but he had some good games after that, Valencia was better yes, but Nani was not poor throughout.
The last point is to revive the Nani left/right debate. For me, and plenty will disagree, it is becoming fast undeniable that Nani is better on right than left. And IMO him shifting to left for Valencia last season did play a part in him losing form.
Funnily enough, I still rate Valenica as the second best winger in the club. Young comes third for me after these two....
one domdoma
I'd agree with all that - he didn't just lose form, I think other circumstances played a part.
His form dipped most dramatically after Carragher cut his shin open (in a game where he started very brightly - playing on the left) so that's the most obvious "other circumstances" IMO.
He was also rushed back too quickly. That knee looked like it needed more than a week and a half to get better.
Thing is, despite Young not being as good as Nani and possibly level(ish) with Valencia, he's guaranteed a spot more than either of them.
Thing is, despite Young not being as good as Nani and possibly level(ish) with Valencia, he's guaranteed a spot more than either of them.
I can't imagine it was the most complicated decision Fergie's ever made. Either pick a player who looked woefully short of form and confidence or one who'd just taken apart one of the best left backs in the world and who was absolutely flying.
As for whether it was wrong or not, it's impossible to know. But if you look at it objectively he made a sensible decision based on how both players were doing in the run up to the final. Anything else is just conjecture.
As for whether it was wrong or not, it's impossible to know. But if you look at it objectively he made a sensible decision based on how both players were doing in the run up to the final. Anything else is just conjecture.
Bit of an endless exercise of going around in circles. Perennial/classic argument of orthodoxy vs intermittent brilliance. Going back to Nani's winner vs Spurs at OT a few years back (1-0) you just knew he was a matchwinner but was he worth a regular starting place? He's near undroppable now.
Exactly. Conjecture on conjecture.
Even if - and it's a very big if - Valencia had gone off injured after 5 minutes and Nani had put in a match-winning display over the remaining 85 you could still argue that Fergie was justified in the decision he made.
In the absence of any such evidence it gets absurdly far-fetched to try to claim the definitely got it wrong.
As others have said, this season looks very interesting in terms of options on the wings. Nani's place on the right wing is his to lose and Young has been excellent on the left - Stoke aside. Valencia's too good to be kept out of the team for long though. I like him at full-back but it's not his natural position and we'll need a more experienced defender there against top opposition.
My tuppence:
Seemed like the right decision at the time to me, I was very happy with the selection of Valencia, though I can see Nani has more in his toolbox.
Seemed like the right decision at the time to me, I was very happy with the selection of Valencia, though I can see Nani has more in his toolbox.
I wanted Nani to play. Valencia was very clearly in much better form, but Nani is a better big game player, and capable of the completely unexpected. Even though in the games leading up to the match Valencia was ahead of him, I still thought Valencia might offer a more disciplined, balanced game, but Nani is capable of the magic that can undo teams like Barcelona, and we would need him for the counters.
That said, it's hardly surprising we went with Valencia, in a match of that magnitute, why take the risk on whether Nani might produce something spectacular or not, when you have a more controlled risk in Valencia, who might not offer the same threat going forward, but it's not far off it, combined with his defensive discipline it wasn't hard to see why he was picked over Nani. That said, I think Nani should have been brought on earlier, as it was clear Valencia was struggling to make an impact.
That said, it's hardly surprising we went with Valencia, in a match of that magnitute, why take the risk on whether Nani might produce something spectacular or not, when you have a more controlled risk in Valencia, who might not offer the same threat going forward, but it's not far off it, combined with his defensive discipline it wasn't hard to see why he was picked over Nani. That said, I think Nani should have been brought on earlier, as it was clear Valencia was struggling to make an impact.
....and I'd have to say that what often gets overlooked is how much tracking back and tackling Nani does. Certainly not just luxury brilliance that might or might not produce. He puts in a decent shift all-round.
If he can, in fact, still be termed a winger, I don't think he really has a close rival now as the best in the PL.
If he can, in fact, still be termed a winger, I don't think he really has a close rival now as the best in the PL.
It's too easy to say that Valencia did well against Cole so he must have been able to do well against Abidal, because Chelsea and Barcelona are vastly different in their style and approach to games. I find that Valencia has a tendency to drift out of games when United are on the back foot, and once he's drifted out he doesn't really seem capable of drifting back in again. He was rendered impotent against Barcelona in exactly this fashion; he made no inroads early in the game, became frustrated and so fell into his 'poor game', that he has now and then, in which he offers and provides absolutely nothing going forward at all. I think that this was something which could have been foreseen when Barcelona were the opponents rather than Chelsea, because they do not allow the end-to-end, high-tempo football which Valencia thrives upon to take place, whereas Chelsea quite often do. Nani on the other hand would have been much more suited to the game, because he has the patience and ability required to produce even in a stuttering attacking performance; he won't allow himself to become frustrated as Valencia does, he'll take his opportunities as and when they come and not need them in constant supply in order to play to the best of his ability. I think SAF will have been aware if this difference in styles and how it might effect the game, he would have given the matter plenty of thought, before ultimately making his decision based on form; a decision which I belive to have been the incorrect one. Football's not as black and white as to say that a manager should always pick his team on form, and that, as long as he does so, he cannot be considered to have made an incorrect decision; Valencia's style doesn't suit a game against Barcelona, however well it might suit a game against Chelsea, and that's why I believe Nani would have been the correct choice to start the CL Final, and why I think the sides would have been much more evenly matched if such were the case; I think Valencia and Nani's performances on the day support this viewpoint.
It's funny, before this season I was thinking Nani had pretty much everything over Valencia bar his defensive duties. There wasn't really any contest, Nani was decent for a player of his attacking ability, but not a patch on what Valencia offers throughout a match.
Now I'm really not so sure. Nani does so much tracking back and interceptions I'm not convinced that Valencia is really ahead of him defensively now. He's still more disciplined than Nani, but overall I think they are on a par now when it comes to defensive play. You do not see a match without Nani winning the ball back multiple times, it's as if he's just sort of realized he can just run past most players in the league with the ball, so chasing them down without it is even easier. He really is turning into an all-round brilliant player.
No one's saying it was as simple as assuming he'd play well against Barca since he'd done well against Chelsea. It comes down to whether you believe you're more likely to get a performance from a player who's in good form than a player who's not and who is low on confidence, along with assessing what they offer the team.
As to Valencia not being suited to Barca, I'd say he's just as suited, albeit in different ways. He keeps the ball far better than Nani and does more defensive work. He isn't capable of moments of the same sorts of moments of brilliance but then when we last beat Barca it was down to us being able to keep things tight, so I can see the logic behind it.
As for the performance on the day, Nani was alright (by his own standards). I certainly didn't see any real evidence that he'd have fared much better than Valencia apart based on their respective performances. He might well have, but I don't know whether you can read any more into it than Valencia being poor and Nani being desperate to do well when he came on against tired legs.
Like I said above, Nani could have been our best player had he started but there was a risk attached and so he lost out. I suspect he might start the game against them if we played them again, but who knows really.
Watch how many defenders try to pick Nani up. Any less than 3 and he fancies his chances of skinning all of them and he usually does.He's immensely talented, any frustation you see from Rooney or Berbatov based at Nani is almost certainly in my mind borne out of the fact they know how good he actually is. In many respects, he's as hard as Rooney to contain.
How do you deal with him? If you step off him you're doomed because he can launch one in from 25-30 yards, if he drags a fullback and centreback towards him Rooney & Hernandez get a free reign in the box - or - Nani has the ability to round them, play the killer pass or finish from almost anywhere and either foot.
If he goes down the wing, he usually just makes the defender look foolish, the cross can be erratic, but he tends to find such a dangerous position or space in the box anyway that the quality of the cross is somewhat negated by the damage he's already done and the position he's in.
I'd be disappointed if Nani doesn't pick up a Ballon d'Or later in his career to be honest.
How do you deal with him? If you step off him you're doomed because he can launch one in from 25-30 yards, if he drags a fullback and centreback towards him Rooney & Hernandez get a free reign in the box - or - Nani has the ability to round them, play the killer pass or finish from almost anywhere and either foot.
If he goes down the wing, he usually just makes the defender look foolish, the cross can be erratic, but he tends to find such a dangerous position or space in the box anyway that the quality of the cross is somewhat negated by the damage he's already done and the position he's in.
I'd be disappointed if Nani doesn't pick up a Ballon d'Or later in his career to be honest.
I don't think there's a chance Nani is at the same level as Valencia defensively, IMO. He's improved a lot and he's a game lad, but he still gets caught out a lot and still gives the ball away in poor positions at times. But then comparing him to Valencia in that sense is a bit unfair as there are very few wingers I can think of who protect their full back like he does.
One outstanding run down the right in the 1st half, I thought "he's not gonna take him on from there" because he had the ball at his feet several yards behind the defender, who wasn't back-pedaling, but trying to push himout to the bye-line. Nani just thrust his chest out and switched the motor on. He has a funny action in that he runs from the hips-down with hardly any upper body movement. Then in the 2nd half down the same flank came from nowhere to disposses them.
I think is largely because they don't know what he is going to do next - never mind the oppo...... but just as they're cursing under their breath, the ball is in the back of the net. Echoes of Best's effect on Law and Charlton.
agree with most of this. do think though that rooney being so unselfish tends to expect the same from others which tends to bring some frustration out when nani shoots from a difficult angle etc. i dont mind it because i love how confident he is about his own ability but thats the reason i think rooney tends to get frustrated at times.
berba on the other hand tends to get really moany(it isnt a word) at everyone when things dont go his way so its not really a surprise.
regarding the ballon d'or bit, he'l have to have 1 heck of a season to surpass messi and ronaldo tbh. i can see each of them banging in 40 goals a season with messi getting 20 assists along with it. those 2 are machines.
Agreed. There's a lot more to protecting your full-back than being willing to track back and make tackles. It's Nani's tendency to occasionally lose the ball in dangerous areas (when not playing well) which makes us easier to break down in games when he gets the nod ahead of Valencia.
I do agree with the general point that Nani's defensive abilities get over-looked in discussions like this. He's a fairly well rounded and hard-working winger now, nothing like the sort of luxury flair player that some teams use, who makes absolutely no effort when the other team are in possession. Of course, I think the perception that Valencia offers nothing more than a defensive option on the wings is equally wrong.
The preconceptions that "Nani = great going forwards but can't defend" and "Valencia = great defending but poor in the final third" do both players a disservice IMO.
agreed. though it has a lot to with their style of play rather than nani's defensive abilities being poorer i reckon. valencia plays the percentages hence is less likely to lose the ball than nani who plays a more flamboyant style and takes people on. he'l always be more susceptible to losing the ball than valencia. he does always chase back and help out though which is the best he can do
Really? I think Nani has fantastic ball retention. He's very rarely muscled off the ball, I remember the Chelsea match where Ray Wilkins couldn't believe he held off Ivanovic to win the ball at one point because Ivanovic is so strong. He's also great at getting out of tight situations and making the pass.
Yeah he dribbles more than Valencia but in fairness, he usually succeeds at it more too which evens out.
Ashley Young has better ball retention than either of them though. He always seems to know whether to play the pass or try take a player on.
didnt mean it the way you think. nani is insanely strong on the ball. superb upper body strength. i was referring to him trying to dribble even in the tightest of situations where valencia would definitely pass the ball. he does, to his credit, manage to beat players even then but he will obviously lose the ball occasionally. valencia playing the percentages means he hardly tries to carry the ball through a crowd or a narrow angle meaning he rarely loses the ball.
thats what i was referring to. nani isnt really careless with the ball when compared to valencia. its just that one of them is more flamboyant with it while the other prefers to play the percentages.
young is perhaps the best decision maker though of the 3, agreed. but then he isnt really capable of doing what nani can and hence doesnt try. nani backs himself even against 2 markers which is brilliant.
Is it just me or has Nani consciously decided to stay on his feet a lot more this season? I think there was a moment against Stoke where he was perhaps feigning injury, although for no more than a few seconds.
In the last couple of seasons I dont this he's been among the worst divers etc like others do, but this season he's been something else. He's just bouncing back up, shrugging players off the ball like a rag doll (see Ivanovic) and playing on, really good to see.
In the last couple of seasons I dont this he's been among the worst divers etc like others do, but this season he's been something else. He's just bouncing back up, shrugging players off the ball like a rag doll (see Ivanovic) and playing on, really good to see.
Most definitely. i think we weed it out of players in general at the club. ronaldo cut it out with time and so's nani. he's much more willing to get on with the game now than he was before. great to see. never appreciated players rolling around unnecessarily.
It seemed to coincide with Rio's stayonyourfeet campaign on twitter, when he started yanking oppo players up off the ground. It would be around the time he grabbed hold of Gerrard's shirt and stood him on his feet after he'd lain on the pitch for too long.
I think he just idolizes Ray Wilkins.
It seemed to coincide with Rio's stayonyourfeet campaign on twitter, when he started yanking oppo players up off the ground. It would be around the time he grabbed hold of Gerrard's shirt and stood him on his feet after he'd lain on the pitch for too long.
#itsamovement #oooooof!
In the tightest of situations Valencia struggles to actually pass the ball though, yeah he's great at one twos and playing the right pass but he's mostly one footed and when caught in a tight spot or around 2 players he finds it very difficult to make space for himself to pass to a player. Nani and Young don't have that problem for me because they are more skillful and can make a bit of space for themselves either.
Christ, I sound like I'm bashing Valencia here, but I'm honestly not, it's just that like you said, he's not as unpredictable or "flamboyant" as Nani, and to a lesser extent Young so yeah, I guess percentage wise he probably does make more passes but they're not usually as dangerous as some of the ones Nani and Young make. It can be looked at as both an advantage or disadvantage in a way, but it's still a good thing to have, it just limits him at times for me.
Though it's almost unfair to compare him to Nani at times now because the latter is comfortably the leagues best winger (and one of its best overall players), then you could argue between Young and Valencia for 2nd spot.
Basically we've the 3 best wingers in the league
I agree with Cider btw. Nani should have played against Barcelona, it would have been a risk, but a calculated one. He's probably our best big game player, he always seems to rise to the occassion.
In the tightest of situations Valencia struggles to actually pass the ball though, yeah he's great at one twos and playing the right pass but he's mostly one footed and when caught in a tight spot or around 2 players he finds it very difficult to make space for himself to pass to a player. Nani and Young don't have that problem for me because they are more skillful and can make a bit of space for themselves either.
Christ, I sound like I'm bashing Valencia here, but I'm honestly not, it's just that like you said, he's not as unpredictable or "flamboyant" as Nani, and to a lesser extent Young so yeah, I guess percentage wise he probably does make more passes but they're not usually as dangerous as some of the ones Nani and Young make. It can be looked at as both an advantage or disadvantage in a way, but it's still a good thing to have, it just limits him at times for me.
Though it's almost unfair to compare him to Nani at times now because the latter is comfortably the leagues best winger (and one of its best overall players), then you could argue between Young and Valencia for 2nd spot.
Basically we've the 3 best wingers in the league
Young shades it for me. he has a better all round game than valencia imo. he has really stepped it up since he came here. almost as if he's been here all the while.
and i totally agree with your view on valencia. feel exactly the same way. a very very good player but will never really be among the cream of the world like nani can be. effective but doesnt really have the X factor if you like.
So damn good.
his crosses were absolutely brilliant tonight. The one welbeck missed was as good a cross as you could ask for.
Sensational cross for Young's goal, and that Welbz header at the end. Nice little cameo.
Naive to not start our best player tonight
Incredible how he was putting in such sublime crosses for fun.
- Status