Louis van Gaal's tactics

[Cassidy]

He can adapt but he has been signed with the mission of transforming the club and giving a clear style to the team, he is not here to grind results with the players he already has.

He actually is, with regards to the top4 target...

 

[djembatheking]

Excellent thread , a great read . It will be interesting to see how we play against Arsenal tonight where we may find a bit more space in attacking positions as I would think they will come at us a bit more than some of the teams we have played recently who have set up more to make it hard for us .

 

[JPRouve]

He actually is, with regards to the top4 target...

He is what ? Grind results ?

Yes, because on the short term top 4 is an important objective, but he also has to prepare the team for the future, that's two conflicting targets.

 

[Cassidy]

He is what ? Grind results ?

Yes, because on the short term top 4 is an important objective, but he also has to prepare the team for the future, that's two conflicting targets.

That the point I am making though. I said I don't like managers who are too rigid in their required setup, that they can't adapt to what they have. Its a balance, to me it seems most of LVGs adaptations have been to fit his idea/mould rather than accepting he doesn't have the right players to play that way YET, and so tweaking that to better suit the players available.

Anyway I still think he'll be a good manager here, also I think he is going to have to tweak his ideas slightly to better suit the tempo of this league.

 

[RedStarUnited]

Why can't he play to the squads strength when it's so obvious it's not working his way. At least until he has players to play to his philosophy?

Managers seem to always adapt the squad to their plans not the other way round. Jose goes to Chelsea and takes one of their best players out of the team simply cos he doesn't fit in to his plans. Another example was when Pep started playing one of the best RB's to have ever played the game in the DM position.

 

[bishblaize]

He is what ? Grind results ?

Yes, because on the short term top 4 is an important objective, but he also has to prepare the team for the future, that's two conflicting targets.

Doesn't have to be a conflicting target. A recent example is City. Its easy to forget now, but in Mancini's first two seasons they were very dour indeed and played a defensive style of football with the aim of reaching the top four and not a lot more. They only managed 60 goals in the entire season when they qualified for the CL. The following season they took the handbrake off, went for the title and went goal crazy, grabbing 93 league goals.

Not saying we're being built for that necessarily, just saying it can be done.

 

[JPRouve]

That the point I am making though. I said I don't like managers who are too rigid in their required setup, that they can't adapt to what they have. Its a balance, to me it seems most of LVGs adaptations have been to fit his idea/mould rather than accepting he doesn't have the right players to play that way YET, and so tweaking that to better suit the players available.

Anyway I still think he'll be a good manager here, also I think he is going to have to tweak his ideas slightly to better suit the tempo of this league.

But he can't do that, he is not going to offload all the current players, he needs to prepare the players who are going to stay, they need to be ready this summer when the last pieces will be available and bring in.

 

[JUPITER]

In a perfect van Gaal match everything is about the number 10. The team plays in service of getting the number 10 in an ideal position to set up a goal for one of his teammates.

Sorry to pick out this one line, but it really stood out to me...

I'm aware that everywhere else in his career this is true - including at the World Cup with Robben.

But since he's been here he's played our best number 10 in CM, and the our other 10 has spent most of the season on the bench in favour of starting two paceless number 9s - something that's lead to us having no balance all season.

 

[Cassidy]

But he can't do that, he is not going to offload all the current players, he needs to prepare the players who are going to stay, they need to be ready this summer when the last pieces will be available and bring in.

Rooney playing in midfield? Preparing him for what? Hes not going to play there when he brings in his new midfielder in the summer...
Like I said I see what hes doing, but I don't think hes got the balance quite right, no one is perfect though of course.
He could tweak his ideas slightly, so that he can get the best out of the players he has whilst aslo preparing them and the others etc, it doesn't mean throwing it in the bin.

Anyway its only a small critism I have of him in that regard so far.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Could you provide more insight into his title winning AZ side and how he got them there? Their previous season (2007-08) was as woeful as ours, or more, and if my memory serves me right, LvG used three or four formations but highly depended on the 4-1-3-2 to reach his goal. I have to admit that they looked to me more like a deadly counter-attacking team rather than a classical Dutch pressing and possession side that year. I also think that playing like that is what he initially had on his mind for his first transitional season at United.

They were, of course, very fluid when they had the ball in the attacking half with their creative players providing excellent off the ball movement. El Hamdaoui and Dembele up front would chase all the first balls in the final third and then they would drift sideways creating space for the #10 and the midfielders to attempt dynamic runs into the opposition box. I believe our forwards' poor form has really let down LvG this season and imo that's why he keeps mentioning that we concede possession very easily and that the forwards haven't provided enough end product.

I also believe that you are spot on about the absence of a box to box midfielder who will be very comfortable and calm on the ball in our half but also able to play his part when we don't have possession. And i can understand all his experiments with several players on that role. What i'm not so sure about is Mata's future role in the team. I expect that when/if we sign one or two wingers who can actually dribble and get past defenders and then link up well with the forward in the box in order to provide goals and assists, we will switch to a version of 4-2-3-1/4-3-3. Assuming that the much needed CM will also be at OT, i think that Herrera will suit his plans better than Mata. Ander can cover more ground, he's better at protecting possession and he can play a big part in our pressing in the midfield.

Two more questions, can you imagine Blind being used as the more defensive box to box midfielder with Carrick at the base of the diamond, or is it something he would never try? And why hasn't he considered a 3-6-1 with a diamond in the midfield? He would have his four defensive players and the two CMs would be playing considerably higher.

 

[JPRouve]

Doesn't have to be a conflicting target. A recent example is City. Its easy to forget now, but in Mancini's first two seasons they were very dour indeed and played a defensive style of football with the aim of reaching the top four and not a lot more. They only managed 60 goals in the entire season when they qualified for the CL. The following season they took the handbrake off, went for the title and went goal crazy, grabbing 93 league goals.

Not saying we're being built for that necessarily, just saying it can be done.

I don't see a lot of City' games but they are still a fast attacking team who can keep the ball, they change nothing except being a little bit more adventurous.

We on the other end lack the players to play a fast counter attacking game, we lack the players to play a defensive game and we lack the players to be completely efficient in the possession game. Our problem is that our roster is a mess, he lacks a clear identity.

 

[jojojo]

Excellent thread , a great read . It will be interesting to see how we play against Arsenal tonight where we may find a bit more space in attacking positions as I would think they will come at us a bit more than some of the teams we have played recently who have set up more to make it hard for us .

It is intriguing. Particularly as we've got a whole series of games coming up against teams who will want wins just as much as we want them.

 

[JPRouve]

Rooney playing in midfield? Preparing him for what? Hes not going to play there when he brings in his new midfielder in the summer...
Like I said I see what hes doing, but I don't think hes got the balance quite right, no one is perfect though of course.
He could tweak his ideas slightly, so that he can get the best out of the players he has whilst aslo preparing them and the others etc, it doesn't mean throwing it in the bin.

Anyway its only a small critism I have of him in that regard so far.

You have to look at the big picture and not focusing on the weird pragmatic choices, the big picture is United under Van gaal will be a possession team and he is preparing the team to this goal.
Now because he lacks some players like a proper 8 who can defend and attack, he tried Rooney there, I don't like it but the decision was understandable.

 

[NoLogo]

When a creative player has the ball in a position where they can take risks though, the team is ready to defend and it doesn't matter if say Di Maria loses the ball. That's why he doesn't like Herrera as a CDM/BTB, he has too much risks in his game. If he loses the ball when he's not 'creative' this disturbs all instructions given to the other players because they're all in the wrong places and we're extremely vulnerable to the counter.

I think this is a very important point. We too often run into bad situations when losing the ball atm. Our defensive transition isn't up to scratch atm and I agree it's often due to the fact that we don't have the midfielder to be able to bridge that gap between the defensive and creative parts of the team. It's also the reason why van Gaal atm plays his defensively most sound FBs instead of someone like Rafael. He seeks to find that balance even without the missing link in midfield.

Overall a very good first post in the mains. Keep it up.

 

[djembatheking]

It explains Rooneys midfield role as LVG obviously trusts him to carry out his orders in the role he is given .

 

[Henrik Larsson]

I disagree. Fellaini, when playing in the deeper role, was pretty neat and tidy, except for the Southampton game, where everyone was losing it.

As for Fellaini's preferred position, it's actually a CDM.

http://www1.skysports.com/football/...ould-prefer-to-play-as-a-defensive-midfielder

That´s interesting, because I remember Van Gaal saying in a post match interview just the other day that the #10 spot is where Fellaini himself would like to play (implying they had talks about a favourite position). He then added that Fellaini now gets some games there, but since he has so many options for the #10 spot it's difficult. Also Fellaini suffers from really poor decision making in the CDM spot, good example is the Cambridge away game, and numerous other performances there. Van Gaal also gave an interview with MUTV on Februari 6 where he stated that Fellaini was an attacking option for him now, implying that he sees him as an emergency striker or an attacking midfielder. Which is spot on, I think Fellaini's best used in a more attacking position too. But in some cases he could do a job in CDM.

Could you provide more insight into his title winning AZ side and how he got them there?

I believe our forwards' poor form has really let down LvG this season and imo that's why he keeps mentioning that we concede possession very easily and that the forwards haven't provided enough end product.

When they finished 11th he played 4-3-3. Next season they brought in some players, he played 4-3-3 again and AZ had a couple of bad results. So then he finally made the switch to what could be discribed as a more compact 4-4-2 and they went on to win the league.

As for the forwards, I think it's the other way around. They weren't the reason Burnley outplayed us at OT, or West Ham bullying us nor were they responsible for us conceding 2 goals against Swansea. Doesn't mean they have scored enough, but the team has clearly struggled in a lot of matches, and therefore the forwards suffer. Enough games where we managed to create feck all, and the pass from the back to the middle was too slow or non existent, etc.

 

[djembatheking]

It is intriguing. Particularly as we've got a whole series of games coming up against teams who will want wins just as much as we want them.

I know mate , it can go both ways I suppose but it is exciting at this point to see how we will perform against teams that will want to really have a go at us .

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

When they finished 11th he played 4-3-3. Next season they brought in some players, he played 4-3-3 again and AZ had a couple of bad results. So then he finally made the switch to what could be discribed as a more compact 4-4-2 and they went on to win the league.

As for the forwards, I think it's the other way around. They weren't the reason Burnley outplayed us at OT, or West Ham bullying us nor were they responsible for us conceding 2 goals against Swansea. Doesn't mean they have scored enough, but the team has clearly struggled in a lot of matches, and therefore the forwards suffer. Enough games where we managed to create feck all, and the pass from the back to the middle was too slow or non existent, etc.

Thanks for that. About the forwards, i was referring to them getting out muscled all the time and eventually not being able to hold onto the ball in advanced positions and link up with the others. I fully agree with you that this team has other bigger issues to solve in other areas but the times we concede possession per game is ridiculous for a club of our size, even when there's a plan to defend. That's one of the reasons he tries Fellaini in more advanced positions, imo.

 

[Smores]

LvGs tactics don't seem particularly complex to me, he's just very self-congratulating so he makes the game out to be a great intellectual pursuit.
His use of the word 'philosophy' sums this up for me, its a term designed to portray deep complexity but isn't tangible.

 

[Nighteyes]

It's all nice in theory but there appears to be little sign of any of it clicking into place unless you want to count keeping possession in pointless areas a progress.

 

[Hal9000]

Managers seem to always adapt the squad to their plans not the other way round. Jose goes to Chelsea and takes one of their best players out of the team simply cos he doesn't fit in to his plans. Another example was when Pep started playing one of the best RB's to have ever played the game in the DM position.

Look at Jose at the Carling Cup, no Matic. Did he change the system? Nope... he just stuck Zouma, CB by trade, to play DM for the first time in his career.

Personally think we'll see a more adventurous United next season. We have a weak defense, a midfield who is quite weak defensively. I think LVG has set us up to be cautious, to keep possession, to protect the defense. Once we have defenders, probably a midfielder like Strootman i think we'll see us playing a little bit faster, a little bit more adventurous.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

That´s interesting, because I remember Van Gaal saying in a post match interview just the other day that the #10 spot is where Fellaini himself would like to play (implying they had talks about a favourite position). He then added that Fellaini now gets some games there, but since he has so many options for the #10 spot it's difficult. Also Fellaini suffers from really poor decision making in the CDM spot, good example is the Cambridge away game, and numerous other performances there. Van Gaal also gave an interview with MUTV on Februari 6 where he stated that Fellaini was an attacking option for him now, implying that he sees him as an emergency striker or an attacking midfielder. Which is spot on, I think Fellaini's best used in a more attacking position too. But in some cases he could do a job in CDM.

That's what Van Gaal said, but it never come out of Fellaini's mouth. I guess he's just doing a job for the team.

As for poor decision making, was it really that bad or are people still basing it off last year? I mean, for starters Fellaini didn't even start as a CDM from what I can remember. If we're talking about the first tie at Cambridge, he was at the right of a diamond, with Carrick holding?

To me, Fellaini has been better as a number 8 then he has further up top, especially when we played with wide men. As well as being given the license to get into the box, where he can use his aerial threat, he also got back and defended, and in my opinion, made us look a lot more solid in the midfield. He did this against Arsenal, City, Chelsea, West Brom and Palace.

 

[Henrik Larsson]

That's what Van Gaal said, but it never come out of Fellaini's mouth. I guess he's just doing a job for the team.

As for poor decision making, was it really that bad or are people still basing it off last year? I mean, for starters Fellaini didn't even start as a CDM from what I can remember. If we're talking about the first tie at Cambridge, he was at the right of a diamond, with Carrick holding?

To me, Fellaini has been better as a number 8 then he has further up top, especially when we played with wide men. As well as being given the license to get into the box, where he can use his aerial threat, he also got back and defended, and in my opinion, made us look a lot more solid in the midfield. He did this against Arsenal, City, Chelsea, West Brom and Palace.

Well I think it's rather obvious that Fellaini is more suited to an advanced role, and why would Van Gaal lie about Fellaini telling him he prefers an attacking midfield role? He did a very decent job playing deeper against Arsenal and Chelsea I agree with that, and if needed he can do a good job in CM. But our tactics are to play a passing game, yet our passing as a team has been quite poor the whole season, and Fellaini really doesn't help with that. He keeps it tidy, but he has such limited vision and passing range, that doesn't match with the players Van Gaal normally plays at #6 and #8. And then on the other hand Fellaini can be a match winner in a more attacking position.

Tonight will be exciting though, will Fellaini play, and where.

 

[RedRover]

It's all nice in theory but there appears to be little sign of any of it clicking into place unless you want to count keeping possession in pointless areas a progress.

Spot on. Looks good on paper but the worry is he'll doggedly stick to something because he's too stubborn to admit that he was wrong.

The most worrying part is his continued attempts to tell everyone that things are working. He needs to realise that fans have eyes in their heads and know when they're not being entertained and when we aren't playing well. No amount of trotting out stats will make me feel any better if I'm underwhelmed by a game and I suspect that most fans feel like that. I've seen enough football over the years to know when I'm seeing quality and when I'm not.

I was at the Newcastle game last week and it was dire. Newcastle were absolutely woeful and that made us look better - especially in the first half when they didn't press nor have anyone in midfield half the time. They sat off and let us play - and despite that, our passing was terrible.

Watching it live and from a decent position for the first time this year you can obviously see what's happening much better than on the TV - and frankly there seems to be little structure. They passed the ball to death despite some players not being able take a pass without taking a heavy touch, then tried to get it wide by which time Newcastle had 10 men behind the ball. The game plan then seems to be to cross it - just like we did under Moyes. It was totally predictable, one dimensional and relatively easy for Newcastle to defend against. There's no tempo, no pace and nobody trying to stretch the play - and that was sad to see.

Frankly the fans deserve better. The players are probably confused by it all as well, being shunted about and being asked to play out of position. Mata must be wondering what he's done wrong because at least he can unlock a defence, and Rooney must be wondering what he's doing - he was the only player who really looked like a United player of old.

Hopefully this all has a point that I just can't see and it'll click. That's just blind optimism though if I'm totally honest. The players just looked like they have the weight of the world on their shoulders.

 

[Eto'odinho]

@NL Max, thanks for clarifying a few things in relation to how we play. Personally, I think most of us (myself included) have underestimated the scale of the task facing United in the post SAF era. The bottom line is United as both a football team and an commercial brand have to remain competitive. The only ways for us to do so were to: 1) find a clone of SAF and hope he/it manages to reproduce the exact same effects; and 2) reinvent ourselves as a relatively new outfit with a different outlook, configuration etc.

We tried option 1 last season to no avail but unfortunately picked the wrong clone. Rather than emulating SAF's we ended up muddling things up to the extent we barely became a functioning unit with plenty of short to mid term effects still being felt at the club

Option 2, as being carried out with LVG at the helm is likely to take time and money. Again en-route to the intended goal, we are likely end up muddling through as not every vision endures a seamless translation on the pitch. I think overall the team is making progress. What LVG is doing is not just a layering new structures but essentially constructing new ones. We are likely to see plenty of more changes before the end of next season, if we opt to stick with him.

The one thing I would love for him to address sooner rather than later though is our off the ball movement. It remains obvious that we are often too static in defence and attack which is harming how to we recover, recycle, and concentrate possession on the pitch. Our lack of movement especially from the front and wide players makes it easier for teams to defend against us, to outnumber and bypass our midfield. A bit more movement akin to what Athletic Bilbao did to us a few years ago in the Europa League would transform us immensely.

I still trust LVG to come good though.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Tonight will be exciting though, will Fellaini play, and where.

I never thought I would ever read something like this on a United forum. If it wasn't sarcasm, then five years ago it certainly would have been perceived as much.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Well I think it's rather obvious that Fellaini is more suited to an advanced role, and why would Van Gaal lie about Fellaini telling him he prefers an attacking midfield role? He did a very decent job playing deeper against Arsenal and Chelsea I agree with that, and if needed he can do a good job in CM. But our tactics are to play a passing game, yet our passing as a team has been quite poor the whole season, and Fellaini really doesn't help with that. He keeps it tidy, but he has such limited vision and passing range, that doesn't match with the players Van Gaal normally plays at #6 and #8. And then on the other hand Fellaini can be a match winner in a more attacking position.

Tonight will be exciting though, will Fellaini play, and where.

I'm not saying he's lying, I just know that I've got quotes saying otherwise.

Nothing to do with Fellaini. It has been awful with him out the team as well. Actually, Fellaini, whilst not doing anything extravagant, doesn't lose the ball often.

If we're going off what @NL Max said, in regards to how Van Gaal's 6 and 8 are used, in terms of keeping it simple and tidy, then I feel Fellaini could and has done this job for us. I mean, how much vision and passing range has Blind and Herrera shown in the last couple of games? Not much, in my opinion. Therefore, this is why I feel if Van Gaal was to say to Fellaini, win the ball back and keep possession, whilst distributing it to our four creative players further forward, he'd be a success.

It will be exciting, although if Van Gaal going to use him as a number 10, then I'd rather not play him. I mean, the number 10 links the midfield and attack and looks to create openings. When we've got Januzaj and Mata on the bench and Herrera playing deeper, it doesn't really make sense to me.

Maybe we'll see a midfield of Blind and Carrick tonight with Herrera/Mata ahead of them.

 

[Nighteyes]

Personally think we'll see a more adventurous United next season. We have a weak defense, a midfield who is quite weak defensively. I think LVG has set us up to be cautious, to keep possession, to protect the defense. Once we have defenders, probably a midfielder like Strootman i think we'll see us playing a little bit faster, a little bit more adventurous.

Is that really the case though? Can you seriously look at the way we have set up and say the team is set up to protect the defense?

 

[NL Max]

Thanks for all the positive posts, I agree with a lot of them.

@JUPITER
I'm not sure about his team selections. I only know how he generally plays and can understand why he made certain decisions. Mata seems the perfect #10 for him but he might not dare to play him with our lack of defensive cover and weak backline. That's the only reason I can think of for not starting him, with the other being he's out of favour. Herrera was bought and did well in his substitutions. He earned his place back and is now trying to play as a box-to-box player without risks. I think he just prefers Fellaini as a target man to take pressure off our defence since we don't play with 2 strikers anymore.

@TheRedDevil'sAdvocate
I never really watched his AZ team. So I can't say anything about this sorry.
I agree about 433, I have the feeling we'll be playing this next season. Not sure if it's with Mata or Herrera though.
Blind has played in a box-to-box role already this season I believe. He can certainly do a job, but it won't be the long term answer. He's not athletic enough and his brain can't fully make up for all the work he would have to do at a top level. As a CDM his positioning saves him, when you have to cover more ground this becomes increasingly difficult.
I think it has to do with 3 at the back. Holland's defence improved significantly with it, whilst ours just seemed to regress. I have absolutely no idea though.

@Eto'odinho
I agree with your post. Louis van Gaal has made many mistakes this season, especially if you count every failed experiment as one. He has always changed it though, he's not blind and will get it right eventually. I just think he had too many bad circumstances hindering him with injuries and players not being able to perform like he wants to. What I posted is what we'll eventually be like. At the moment we're still far off where he wants us to be, I hoped it would've clicked sooner aswell but I still trust the man.

@akash02
I do think he set us up to protect the defence. Playing with 2 strikers wasn't great, but it at least means the opposition couldn't press up high because they would've been 1v1 at the back. Fellaini is a target man and gives us a safe option for when the passing doesn't work. We're seeing players who take way too much time before they give a pass, this is to make sure we don't lose possesion. I don't think he intentionally told them to slow the play down (that wouldn't make any sense) but gave them instructions to be 100% sure your pass reaches your man. Like Cruyff once said: If we got the ball then they can't score.

 

[Empire]

@NL Max

With Carrick's return could you see him and Blind being the two defensive minded players plus the two centre backs until the end of the season, perhaps Blind performing a role similar to a box to box midfielder temporarily so Herrera or Mata could have creative freedom further ahead?

Sorry if this has already been asked.

 

[Henrik Larsson]

I never thought I would ever read something like this on a United forum. If it wasn't sarcasm, then five years ago it certainly would have been perceived as much.

Perhaps I should add that I meant the excitement is in the game and line up as a whole - the big question being: what will Van Gaal do? Not just whether/where Fellaini will play specifically.

I'm not saying he's lying, I just know that I've got quotes saying otherwise. + If we're going off what @NL Max said, in regards to how Van Gaal's 6 and 8 are used, in terms of keeping it simple and tidy, then I feel Fellaini could and has done this job for us. I mean, how much vision and passing range has Blind and Herrera shown in the last couple of games? Not much, in my opinion. Therefore, this is why I feel if Van Gaal was to say to Fellaini, win the ball back and keep possession, whilst distributing it to our four creative players further forward, he'd be a success.

Yeah I read those quotes, and I think it's the Fellaini discussion in a nutshell - what's his best position? A lot of players are clueless about what their best position is themselves. For instance, first you have Fellaini who says he thinks he is a CDM in that interview you posted. While Moyes was playing him as an AM that season and said he can play anyhwere without saying what his best position was.

Then Belgium coach Marc Wilmots called him a box-to-box play last summer, which is something completely different than a CDM like Fellaini called himself in that 2012 interview:

"And Wilmots believes the problem is that Fellaini, who operated just behind a main striker for Everton, has been deployed as a holding midfielder, rather than being told to make more forward runs.

He told Belgian newspaper Het Laatste Nieuws: “I don't understand why Manchester United bought him to play him in a system of two No. 6s. Marouane is a box-to-box player.”"

http://www.espnfc.com/barclays-prem...-coach-marc-wilmots-defends-marouane-fellaini

And then there's Van Gaal who's used him everywhere - but has he used him in CDM? I think what Van Gaal likes about him in CM is his strenght, man marking, defensive aspects. Fellaini did well against Arsenal an Chelsea, when spaces were tight and he had a proper job to do. But against Cambridge away he played in midfield when they let us have all of the ball, and he looked hopeless. Same for the Stoke City game, he scored a good goal from CM. But he also lost the ball wich led to a Stoke goal. In the end I think he's only really useful in CM if he can focus on defending, especially against big teams.

Also, Van Gaal on Fellaini in an advanced role: "Yes, Fellaini has the body [strength]," van Gaal said. "We can always overcome the pressure with him and he scores goals also. I played him for the first time in the position he wants but I have not always got a position for him and that's my problem
http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-F...o-progress-in-fa-cup-at-preston.aspx?pageNo=2

To bring it back to Van Gaal's philosphy, in CM he used Herrera, Blind and Carrick who are all better passers than Fellaini - but you're right they weren't really showing it in the last games. For Holland his ideal scenario was Nigel de Jong and Strootman, maybe Fellaini is on par with Nigel de Jong (but De Jong grew up in the Ajax system and is a bit less clueless than Fellaini imo). And then at AZ he used players like Stijn Schaars and De Zeeuw in CM, they were more suited to a passing game than Fellani. At Bayern he had Schweinsteiger and Van Bommel there, both much better passers than Fellaini. He replaced Van Bommel with Luis Gustavo in his second year, again Gustavo is more of a passing player than Fellaini I think. So except for De Jong who was very familiar with Van Gaal's philosphy, he always preferenced different types of midfielders than Fellaini in CM.

 

[NL Max]

@NL Max

With Carrick's return could you see him and Blind being the two defensive minded players plus the two centre backs until the end of the season, perhaps Blind performing a role similar to a box to box midfielder temporarily so Herrera or Mata could have creative freedom further ahead?

Sorry if this has already been asked.

I think it definately is an option. Carrick is our 2nd captain and they're both defensive players in van Gaal's eyes, opposed to Herrera who's (although he's improved as a box-to-box player) still a creative player. It might be an option for the tougher matches where the opposition doesn't sit back and defend and we'll need more defensive stability (in his eyes).

Blind isn't really a box-to-box player though and neither is Carrick, so it won't be preferred for next season. For this season because we're short on defensive minded players it's a logical solution though.

 

[Varun]

Is that really the case though? Can you seriously look at the way we have set up and say the team is set up to protect the defense?

How cautious we are with the ball is definitely due to that as one of the reasons.

 

[Barca84]

How cautious we are with the ball is definitely due to that as one of the reasons.

Absolutely and the catalyst was the fiasco at Leicester.

 

[Giggsy PO]

Thank you for the fantastic comprehensive opening post about LvG. It was a great read.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

I never really watched his AZ team. So I can't say anything about this sorry.
I agree about 433, I have the feeling we'll be playing this next season. Not sure if it's with Mata or Herrera though.
Blind has played in a box-to-box role already this season I believe. He can certainly do a job, but it won't be the long term answer. He's not athletic enough and his brain can't fully make up for all the work he would have to do at a top level. As a CDM his positioning saves him, when you have to cover more ground this becomes increasingly difficult.
I think it has to do with 3 at the back. Holland's defence improved significantly with it, whilst ours just seemed to regress. I have absolutely no idea though.

Thanks for taking the time to answer our questions, appreciate it.

I agree that Blind can't be the long term answer, i was just thinking of him and Herrera as box to box midfielders with Carrick in front of the defense till the end of the season. You are right to say that he analyzes each and every opponent and our upcoming fixtures are against teams (City, Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs or Chelsea) who can simply tear you to pieces, if you offer them space to exploit in your third. I believe we're going to need Carrick in those games and i would prefer Blind and not Fellaini in the starting lineup. I consider Fellaini a better option to come from the bench when we're chasing a game.

On the other hand, one can argue that Blind and Carrick are pretty much slightly different versions of the same player. And it's not only about their lack of physicality, they can't cover all the spaces in our midfield effectively and they can't rush forward without leaving a huge gap behind them. Imo that makes it almost impossible for LvG to start both of them, as double pivots, and Mata as a #10, which is pretty much what everyone has been saying he should do.

 

[dannyrhinos89]

Interesting read, but I still stand by what I said a few games into the season LVG isn't good enough to be our manager, I don't think we will go anywhere under his leadership. I just can't see the direction he is taking us.

 

[NL Max]

Thanks for taking the time to answer our questions, appreciate it.

I agree that Blind can't be the long term answer, i was just thinking of him and Herrera as box to box midfielders with Carrick in front of the defense till the end of the season. You are right to say that he analyzes each and every opponent and our upcoming fixtures are against teams (City, Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs or Chelsea) who can simply tear you to pieces, if you offer them space to exploit in your third. I believe we're going to need Carrick in those games and i would prefer Blind and not Fellaini in the starting lineup. I consider Fellaini a better option to come from the bench when we're chasing a game.

On the other hand, one can argue that Blind and Carrick are pretty much slightly different versions of the same player. And it's not only about their lack of physicality, they can't cover all the spaces in our midfield effectively and they can't rush forward without leaving a huge gap behind them. Imo that makes it almost impossible for LvG to start both of them, as double pivots, and Mata as a #10, which is pretty much what everyone has been saying he should do.

I was thinking the same thing. Herrera has done reasonably well as a box-to-box player but he's still a liability because he's really an attacking midfielder. Against lesser opposition who park the bus he's done ok but we'll have to see if he retains his spot when we're up against tough opposition. I think he might lose his spot to Carrick or Fellaini in these games for the defensive cover.

I think Fellaini right now is competing for the #10 or strikers role. I think this is just another experiment which could change, but he's been effective there as he doesn't have to worry about keeping possesion at all costs. At the moment we just lack the 4th defensive player and I'm not sure if Fellaini at #10 will be enough for van Gaal as he's really a creative player when he's playing there, he will have to take his chance. He offers an easy way out if our defenders can't build from the back though which does help defensively.

We only have limitted options for the defensive midfield so a base of Carrick and Blind could be an option although it's far from ideal. They're indeed similar players and not really suited to play together, I'm not sure if we're going to see this. I would personally give it a try.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Perhaps I should add that I meant the excitement is in the game and line up as a whole - the big question being: what will Van Gaal do? Not just whether/where Fellaini will play specifically.



Yeah I read those quotes, and I think it's the Fellaini discussion in a nutshell - what's his best position? A lot of players are clueless about what their best position is themselves. For instance, first you have Fellaini who says he thinks he is a CDM in that interview you posted. While Moyes was playing him as an AM that season and said he can play anyhwere without saying what his best position was.

Then Belgium coach Marc Wilmots called him a box-to-box play last summer, which is something completely different than a CDM like Fellaini called himself in that 2012 interview:

"And Wilmots believes the problem is that Fellaini, who operated just behind a main striker for Everton, has been deployed as a holding midfielder, rather than being told to make more forward runs.

He told Belgian newspaper Het Laatste Nieuws: “I don't understand why Manchester United bought him to play him in a system of two No. 6s. Marouane is a box-to-box player.”"

http://www.espnfc.com/barclays-prem...-coach-marc-wilmots-defends-marouane-fellaini

And then there's Van Gaal who's used him everywhere - but has he used him in CDM? I think what Van Gaal likes about him in CM is his strenght, man marking, defensive aspects. Fellaini did well against Arsenal an Chelsea, when spaces were tight and he had a proper job to do. But against Cambridge away he played in midfield when they let us have all of the ball, and he looked hopeless. Same for the Stoke City game, he scored a good goal from CM. But he also lost the ball wich led to a Stoke goal. In the end I think he's only really useful in CM if he can focus on defending, especially against big teams.

Also, Van Gaal on Fellaini in an advanced role: "Yes, Fellaini has the body [strength]," van Gaal said. "We can always overcome the pressure with him and he scores goals also. I played him for the first time in the position he wants but I have not always got a position for him and that's my problem
http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-F...o-progress-in-fa-cup-at-preston.aspx?pageNo=2

To bring it back to Van Gaal's philosphy, in CM he used Herrera, Blind and Carrick who are all better passers than Fellaini - but you're right they weren't really showing it in the last games. For Holland his ideal scenario was Nigel de Jong and Strootman, maybe Fellaini is on par with Nigel de Jong (but De Jong grew up in the Ajax system and is a bit less clueless than Fellaini imo). And then at AZ he used players like Stijn Schaars and De Zeeuw in CM, they were more suited to a passing game than Fellani. At Bayern he had Schweinsteiger and Van Bommel there, both much better passers than Fellaini. He replaced Van Bommel with Luis Gustavo in his second year, again Gustavo is more of a passing player than Fellaini I think. So except for De Jong who was very familiar with Van Gaal's philosphy, he always preferenced different types of midfielders than Fellaini in CM.

Well, like you said, every manager he's played under feels he's better in different positions, and that they can utilize him in different ways. I guess he's a versatile player - similar to Rooney, I guess.

I was just saying in response to the OP that, if we are going to simplify our 6 and 8, meaning less risks in passing, dribbling, etc, then maybe we should put Fellaini in the 8, as I feel Herrera's normal games being restricted from this.

 

[Empire]

Worth adding Louis van Gaal had the following framed on his wall in his office at Ajax “Quality is the exclusion of coincidence.”