Louis van Gaal's tactics

[antsmithmk]

Should someone tell Louis?

Those stat's can be interpreted in other ways... 65% of the time the team with most possession either wins or draws for example.

 

[antsmithmk]

Yeah but 65% games not won (drawn, lost) by team with less possesion...

Exactly. I'm it sure those stats tell the story the author wants them too. Also we where does the data come from?

 

[ravelston]

top level, league competing and UCL experience. I'd say yes

I think the inexperienced thing is wearing very thin.

Darmian: First played for Milan in '06-07. Last three seasons with Torino in Serie A. 17 Europa League appearances; 13 caps for Italy - voted their best player for 2014-15.
Smalling: Starting his 6th year at United. 29 European appearances (mostly UCL). 18 caps for England.
Jones: 6 PL seasons, 4 at United. 20 European appearances (mostly/all? UCL). 17 caps for England.
Blind: 6 seasons in the Eredivisie (5 at Ajax), one in PL. 24 European appearances (mix of Europa League and UCL). 25 caps for the Netherlands.

[Edit: I should probably have included
Shaw: Starting his 4th PL season. 4 caps for England.
Rojo: 3 years at Estudiantes, one at Spartak, 2 at Sporting, one at United. 20 appearances in various continental competitions (primarily Libertadores and Europa League). 37 caps for Argentina (including the WC Final).]

 

[darioterios]

I think the inexperienced thing is wearing very thin.

Darmian: First played for Milan in '06-07. Last three seasons with Torino in Serie A. 17 Europa League appearances; 13 caps for Italy - voted their best player for 2014-15.
Smalling: Starting his 6th year at United. 29 European appearances (mostly UCL). 18 caps for England.
Jones: 6 PL seasons, 4 at United. 20 European appearances (mostly/all? UCL). 17 caps for England.
Blind: 6 seasons in the Eredivisie (5 at Ajax), one in PL. 24 European appearances (mix of Europa League and UCL). 25 caps for the Netherlands.

I just want to point out the Eriksen chance came from Darmian forgetting to hold the line. If it's Aguero, Ibra... well that's where the place I would like a senior head comes in to help them avoid

 

[ravelston]

I just want to point out the Eriksen chance came from Darmian forgetting to hold the line. If it's Aguero, Ibra... well that's where the place I would like a senior head comes in to help them avoid

That's coaching and familiarity with colleagues. There was nothing that a "senior head" could have done anything about. Mata not losing the ball and Blind going with the runner might have been helpful, but the Blind/Darmian "confusion" was all coaching/familiarity with the nuances of the system and your colleagues reactions.

Eriksen had to take it very early with Romero coming at him - if it's lower Romero probably gets a hand on it. That's why we have goalkeepers.

 

[Kraftwerker]

Should someone tell Louis?

Hmm, I'm sceptical about this, because most games finish with ratios like 52:48 with basically small differences where it wouldn't make much difference.

I'd like to see the same stats filtered to games which have a 10+ point swing in possession, then 20+ which is usually what United had last year.

If you have 60-70% possession and phenomenal attacking talent, I reckon your win percentage is considerably higher. We didn't have the latter last year, and still don't IMO.

 

[RK]

Should someone tell Louis?

Lazy stats (not aimed at you Pogue). A more meaningful analysis would be to count possession when the match is tied and correlate that to win %.

Generally speaking, possession is a measure of talent and can be used as a predictor for future performance. There are outliers for genuine football reasons (Pulis' Stoke) but the trend is there. Saying that I'm also being lazy and not backing it up with data right now. However, you only have to watch football to know that when a team takes the lead, the opponents will probably have more possession than usual for the remainder of the imbalance. This skews the stats above.

Another example would be corners. Last season 51% of corners went to the losing team, but it'd be naive to say that a team known for getting lots of corners is more likely to lose. Last year Man City had the most corners followed by Arsenal in 2nd and Chelsea in 4th.

I'll go be boring somewhere else now.

 

[RedorDead21]

Lazy stats (not aimed at you Pogue). A more meaningful analysis would be to count possession when the match is tied and correlate that to win %.

Generally speaking, possession is a measure of talent and can be used as a predictor for future performance. There are outliers for genuine football reasons (Pulis' Stoke) but the trend is there. Saying that I'm also being lazy and not backing it up with data right now. However, you only have to watch football to know that when a team takes the lead, the opponents will probably have more possession than usual for the remainder of the imbalance. This skews the stats above.

Another example would be corners. Last season 51% of corners went to the losing team, but it'd be naive to say that a team known for getting lots of corners is more likely to lose. Last year Man City had the most corners followed by Arsenal in 2nd and Chelsea in 4th.

I'll go be boring somewhere else now.

The Times said I think only 1/100 PL corners led to a goal over the last 5 years I wonder if true. Wouldn't be surprised I think corner taking ability is a disgrace for footballers. That said just watch Tiger Woods with a driver....also a disgrace.

 

[Lewis.no.9]

I genuinely believe the Spurs game would of been way better had Rooney played No.10, with Hernandez ahead of him and Mata and Memphis as wingers. If Van Gaal wants to carry on using 2 midfielders like that and 2 forwards, then surely Hernandez makes way more sense uptop then any other striker we have on the books?. Why isnt he getting any minutes.

 

[Mani]

I genuinely believe the Spurs game would of been way better had Rooney played No.10, with Hernandez ahead of him and Mata and Memphis as wingers. If Van Gaal wants to carry on using 2 midfielders like that and 2 forwards, then surely Hernandez makes way more sense uptop then any other striker we have on the books?. Why isnt he getting any minutes.

That was my thought as well, he could have used Rooney at no.10 role or switch role between Depay and Rooney in course of play to see how it works.
Rooney got better work rate to attack the hole, can act as better link between midfield and attack,the Jari Litmanen role, few posters above speaking about.
But the problem if Rooney moves to No.10 position means we don't have proper striker to replace him at top.

 

[RedMachine03]

Van Gaal explains Memphis' position
Louis van Gaal has revealed why he is playing Memphis Depay in a central role as he attempted to explain his tactical system to MUTV.

In an exclusive interview, the Manchester United manager answered a question on whether the formation used on the opening day against Tottenham Hotspur was 4-3-3, 4-4-1-1 or 4-2-3-1, and indicated he prefers a second striker to operate in the spot currently being occupied by Memphis.

"A match is defined in four main moments," said van Gaal. "We call them ball possession, ball possession of the opponent, transition to ball possession and transition to ball possession of the opponent. That you have to see [analyse] in every system at a main moment and then the systems are always different.

"So when you play in ball possession of the opponent it can be 4-3-2-1 but it can also be 4-4-1-1. It is dependable of how you play against an opponent. I hope the spectators are still aware of what I’ve said but it is like that."

In terms of Memphis' place in the line-up, he stated: "I prefer that position to be more a second striker than a third midfielder. I want to see Memphis in that role, of course.

"It is also, for him, maybe more difficult because he has to make the step to the Premier League, to Manchester United, a new club. Maybe I shall use him also at the left-wing position because he knows that much better."

Full-backs Matteo Darmian and Luke Shaw are also integral to the manager's formation.

"In our playing style, they are very important because they have to overlap our wingers who are playing there," added van Gaal.

"But they have to recover their shape in defence again. That is a very demanding position but they did very well against Spurs."

 

[Raw]

"A match is defined in four main moments," said van Gaal. "We call them ball possession, ball possession of the opponent, transition to ball possession and transition to ball possession of the opponent.

He sure loves possession.

 

[Welsh Wonder]

He sure loves possession.

Ball possession, to be precise. Luca Toni found that out the hard way.

 

[0161_UNITED]

Van Gaal explains Memphis' position
Louis van Gaal has revealed why he is playing Memphis Depay in a central role as he attempted to explain his tactical system to MUTV.

In an exclusive interview, the Manchester United manager answered a question on whether the formation used on the opening day against Tottenham Hotspur was 4-3-3, 4-4-1-1 or 4-2-3-1, and indicated he prefers a second striker to operate in the spot currently being occupied by Memphis.

"A match is defined in four main moments," said van Gaal. "We call them ball possession, ball possession of the opponent, transition to ball possession and transition to ball possession of the opponent. That you have to see [analyse] in every system at a main moment and then the systems are always different.

"So when you play in ball possession of the opponent it can be 4-3-2-1 but it can also be 4-4-1-1. It is dependable of how you play against an opponent. I hope the spectators are still aware of what I’ve said but it is like that."

In terms of Memphis' place in the line-up, he stated: "I prefer that position to be more a second striker than a third midfielder. I want to see Memphis in that role, of course.

"It is also, for him, maybe more difficult because he has to make the step to the Premier League, to Manchester United, a new club. Maybe I shall use him also at the left-wing position because he knows that much better."

Full-backs Matteo Darmian and Luke Shaw are also integral to the manager's formation.

"In our playing style, they are very important because they have to overlap our wingers who are playing there," added van Gaal.

"But they have to recover their shape in defence again. That is a very demanding position but they did very well against Spurs."

What happened to, "I shall play 4-3-3?"

 

[Yorkeontop]

I can see why Louis likes a player like Muller. The 9 in Louis' system is very much just another part of the puzzle and not the main centre piece.

 

[RedStarUnited]

He seems to have looked at Jose's Chelsea and copied the formation. We just lack a Hazard to bring it all together.

 

[Tosicsleftpeg]

We have seen the formation and philosophy can work well with that great run of form last season and more importantly finishing within the top 4. The first 2 games this season may not have been spectacular but you can already see things improving slowly and if we can keep going on getting wins while slowly improving i think we will do well this year.

 

[kafta]

These two games might have been far from spectacular, but it feels good to have a solid foundation at the back and in midfield to build from. I think once our team gels, and maybe we add one more speedy forward, we will see the philosophy in full flow, and it will be efficient and good to watch.

For now, I'm glad we look like a gritty compact team that's hard to play against, shows the teams come a long way from the defensive shambles of last season.

 

[World Game]

Should someone tell Louis?

On average when Team A plays against Team B they will have 50/50 possession. On average in England, 40% will end in draw, 30% win for Team A and 30% for Team B. However in every game even where possession is 50/50 there will always be one team with more possession e.g Team A could have 49.9% possession or 51.1% possession. Looking at it this way, over the long run it is easy to see why if wins have no correlation with possession. If someone wants to make a judgement about possession they should look at % of wins/draws/losses with 55%+,60%+,65%+, possession.

For example, read: http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2010/may/12/the-question-important-possession

Opta statistics, produced in conjunction with Castrol, show that over the past two seasons in the Premier League in only around a third of games did one side have 60% of possession or more, and when they did they won 52% of the time, and lost 25%. If a side had 70% possession or over (which happened in 4.7% of games), they won 67% of the time and lost 17%. Only once in the past two seasons did one side have over 80 per cent possession – Liverpool, in their 3-2 win at Bolton last August.

In the closer games, having 50-59.9% possession meant a side won 43% of the time and lost 31%. So there is a clear correlation between dominating possession and winning matches.

That is:
50-60 possession = 43% win / 31% loss
60-70 possession = 52% win / 25% loss
70+ possession = 67% win / 17% loss

Now you see how stupid it is to count wins/draws by teams with ~49.99% possession which make up large masses of games in order to try to play down the importance of possession. Good luck telling Louis this!

 

[Rowem]

He seems to have looked at Jose's Chelsea and copied the formation. We just lack a Hazard to bring it all together.

Urm not really. Oscar tends to be the AM for Chelsea and he plays deeper than Depay/Januzaj have done for us. And often they drop Oscar and play Fabregas as the AM who plays even deeper than Oscar.

Chelsea's formation is possibly the most common in world football at the moment so let's not give Mourinho credit for it.

 

[0161_UNITED]

Something I've been wondering about. When LvG said his 4-2-3-1 morphed into a 4-4-1-1 in attack, and the surprise inclusion of Januzaj, I'm wondering if maybe Giggs isn't having more input and impact tactically and in selection in conjunction with LvG.

 

[sunama]

For now, I'm glad we look like a gritty compact team that's hard to play against, shows the teams come a long way from the defensive shambles of last season.

This is true.
Last year, I remember that when an opponent would come into our own half, with the ball, it would almost certainly result in a goal scoring attempt.
Basically, our defenders could not cut out attempts to score. If a team got past our midfield, DDG would be preparing to make a save.

But this season, even when the opponent has the ball and the ball is in our own half, our defenders are either dispossessing the opponent or putting the ball out for a throw-in or corner.
In fact, our defence has been so good, that after 2 games, we cannot properly assess our new GK because he has had nothing difficult to save.

Conversely, our attack is weaker than it was last year. And last year, our attack was (already) weak.

 

[#07]

Something I've been wondering about. When LvG said his 4-2-3-1 morphed into a 4-4-1-1 in attack, and the surprise inclusion of Januzaj, I'm wondering if maybe Giggs isn't having more input and impact tactically and in selection in conjunction with LvG.

I doubt that. Louis sees the game in four distinctive phases, and in his mind there is a formation for every single one of them.

If you're particularly interested in how he sees the game check out the 78 slide presentation he did on Barcelona's philosophy. It explains Van Gaal's way of thinking about football much better than I ever could, even without him speaking to the slides. Although I think there is some video of him somewhere on the internet actually explaining what each of the slides mean in practice.

Honestly speaking, when it comes to tactical thinking, I believe Van Gaal is one of the best out there together with Bielsa, Pep and Mourinho. Where Van Gaal sometimes falls down is that players are often more limited than his tactical vision. So sometimes it doesn't look quite as good in practice as on paper.

Last night there were encouraging signs for his forward pointing 4-3-3. At half time it all seemed to fall apart though. It wasn't until he introduced Basti and Ander and went to a backwards pointing 4-3-3 with Morgan anchoring that we regained control of the game.

As I have said previously, I think the backwards pointing version works better for our squad. Some would say because its easier to execute than the forward pointing version of Van Gaal's Ajax. My response would be, perhaps. However, surely Spain and Barcelona, who play the backwards pointing version outlined in Van Gaal's presentation I linked above, can't have got it all wrong given how successful they've been over the past half a dozen years.

 

[Oneunited26]

I doubt that. Louis sees the game in four distinctive phases, and in his mind there is a formation for every single one of them.

If you're particularly interested in how he sees the game check out the 78 slide presentation he did on Barcelona's philosophy. It explains Van Gaal's way of thinking about football much better than I ever could, even without him speaking to the slides. Although I think there is some video of him somewhere on the internet actually explaining what each of the slides mean in practice.

Honestly speaking, when it comes to tactical thinking, I believe Van Gaal is one of the best out there together with Bielsa, Pep and Mourinho. Where Van Gaal sometimes falls down is that players are often more limited than his tactical vision. So sometimes it doesn't look quite as good in practice as on paper.

Last night there were encouraging signs for his forward pointing 4-3-3. At half time it all seemed to fall apart though. It wasn't until he introduced Basti and Ander and went to a backwards pointing 4-3-3 with Morgan anchoring that we regained control of the game. As I have said previously, I think the backwards pointing version works better for our squad. Some would say because its easier to execute than the forward pointing version of Van Gaal's Ajax. My response would be, perhaps. However, surely Spain and Barcelona, who play the backwards pointing version outlined in Van Gaal's presentation I linked above, can't have got it all wrong given how successful they've been over the past half a dozen years.

I think he needs to tweek the system, and introduce herrera so we gain more control of the ball. Still think if he puts herrera in the attacking midfield role, mata an inside right position and push depay and rooney further forward we could really show more, and not look all over the place.

Fellaini still has a part to play, and it would be interesting if VG goes back to a 4141 system, with

Morgan
herrera fellaini
mata rooney depay

That is a midfield and frontline I would be very interested in him trying out since that similar team ripped some of our rivals apart, we get the height of fellaini, the control of herrera and mata, and give depay a free role to link up play with rooney.

 

[Twigg]

I might just be being daft but I get the feeling that van Gaal's system is a bit too systematic, in the sense of restricting the freedom of some of the players, suppressing egos for the 'good' of the team etc. Sure discipline is important but I think it's also important for certain players to be allowed to express themselves more than what we see with some of the robotic systems.

Perhaps right now it's a case of first getting the system embedded into the players heads, particularly the new ones, then thinking about allowing the lads to express themselves. Bit of silly speculation there though, can't know for sure what's going on behind the scenes, and more importantly I'm probably talking shit.

 

[Oneunited26]

I might just be being daft but I get the feeling that van Gaal's system is a bit too systematic, in the sense of restricting the freedom of some of the players, suppressing egos for the 'good' of the team etc. Sure discipline is important but I think it's also important for certain players to be allowed to express themselves more than what we see with some of the robotic systems.

Perhaps right now it's a case of first getting the system embedded into the players heads, particularly the new ones, then thinking about allowing the lads to express themselves. Bit of silly speculation there though, can't know for sure what's going on behind the scenes, and more importantly I'm probably talking shit.

The problem is? he tries this with 352 trying a new system, and he ended up having to change systems. So its a worry he experimenting when he has the weapons to try the system he supposed wanted last year

 

[#07]

I might just be being daft but I get the feeling that van Gaal's system is a bit too systematic, in the sense of restricting the freedom of some of the players, suppressing egos for the 'good' of the team etc. Sure discipline is important but I think it's also important for certain players to be allowed to express themselves more than what we see with some of the robotic systems.

Perhaps right now it's a case of first getting the system embedded into the players heads, particularly the new ones, then thinking about allowing the lads to express themselves. Bit of silly speculation there though, can't know for sure what's going on behind the scenes, and more importantly I'm probably talking shit.

Looking at the Van Gaal presentation on Barcelona's philosophy that I linked above the word 'discipline' is mentioned a lot. Van Gaal outlines specific requirements for the key players in his system. If you look at how United are playing he's already compromised significantly on some of those things e.g. pace at #7.

If the penny drops and everyone starts playing to the system it will look immense. Last night there were some positive steps forward until half time. The passing needs to be crisper, quicker and more assured to really make it work. I feel to some extent that's to do with personnel as shown by our improvement after Basti and Ander came on. Still, as long as we keep winning, I'll give Van Gaal's experiment a chance. We looked much better than against Spurs, for 45 minutes we maintained shape and a gap didn't open up in the middle of the park. Let's see where we go from here.

 

[ArmchairCritic]

What intrigued me last night (in spite of his piss poor performance) is how deep Rooney plays off the ball for a number 9 in a one striker system, whenever Richards or Clark were on the ball he'd drop next to Januzaj, making it near impossible for Villa to play through their midfield. Whilst this contributes to our defensively solidarity it does make me wonder if we are playing the one striker system correctly, I think Rooney should be another 10 yards up and I think it would help him a lot. I do remember Rooney playing up top by himself vs. City I think and Gary Neville did a piece on it after highlighting Rooney's unselfishness in that position although I think it was more to do with Rooney staying in between the 2 CB's but this is something he didn't seem to do at all last night.

I wonder if Van Gaal thinks Depay's pace is better suited on the break hence him trying him out as a 10 close to Rooney to break off of Rooney, happened again last night with Depay drifting inside. Our front 3/4 has a really weird balance to be honest, Mata, Januzaj and Rooney all kind of drift into the same areas and it was only Depay on the left who was an outlet. I think Pedro on the right would help a lot.

 

[#07]

What intrigued me last night (in spite of his piss poor performance) is how deep Rooney plays off the ball for a number 9 in a one striker system, whenever Richards or Clark were on the ball he'd drop next to Januzaj, making it near impossible for Villa to play through their midfield. Whilst this contributes to our defensively solidarity it does make me wonder if we are playing the one striker system correctly, I think Rooney should be another 10 yards up and I think it would help him a lot. I do remember Rooney playing up top by himself vs. City I think and Gary Neville did a piece on it after highlighting Rooney's unselfishness in that position although I think it was more to do with Rooney staying in between the 2 CB's but this is something he didn't seem to do at all last night.

I wonder if Van Gaal thinks Depay's pace is better suited on the break hence him trying him out as a 10 close to Rooney to break off of Rooney, happened again last night with Depay drifting inside. Our front 3/4 has a really weird balance to be honest, Mata, Januzaj and Rooney all kind of drift into the same areas and it was only Depay on the left who was an outlet. I think Pedro on the right would help a lot.

Its been a hallmark of the Van Gaal's sides for the #9 to drop off and allow the #10 to run beyond him. Litmanen used to do it, Muller used to do it, Robben did it at the World Cup. There is nothing unusual about Van Gaal's #9 dropping off. It all depends on the phase of play. The runs made by the #9 are meant to block off passing angles or open up space for other players. These runs are not always uniform, sometimes deep, sometimes into the channel, sometimes wide. The #9 has to have variation to his game so other players can pick their runs, and attack any space vacated by a centre back that follows the #9. Its not a question of just staying high up.

I'm sure the purpose of playing Depay centrally was to exploit his pace on the break, and you're also right that our front four does not have the balance Van Gaal tends to prefer. Usually Van Gaal would like two speedy wide players, which I guess explains the interest in Pedro, but Mata's performances have played him into the first XI.

 

[ArmchairCritic]

Its been a hallmark of the Van Gaal's sides for the #9 to drop off and allow the #10 to run beyond him. Litmanen used to do it, Muller used to do it, Robben did it at the World Cup. There is nothing unusual about Van Gaal's #9 dropping off. It all depends on the phase of play. The runs made by the #9 are meant to block off passing angles or open up space for other players. These runs are not always uniform, sometimes deep, sometimes into the channel, sometimes wide. The #9 has to have variation to his game so other players can pick their runs, and attack any space vacated by a centre back that follows the #9. Its not a question of just staying high up.

I'm sure the purpose of playing Depay centrally was to exploit his pace on the break, and you're also right that our front four does not have the balance Van Gaal tends to prefer. Usually Van Gaal would like two speedy wide players, which I guess explains the interest in Pedro, but Mata's performances have played him into the first XI.

But the weird thing last night is Mata, Januzaj and Rooney were nearly blocking space for each other, our goal came from Mata being on the wrong side. Rooney is playing like a 10 at the moment and that is his worst position (in spite of pundits insisting it's his best, they seem to switch between 9 and 10 depending on wherever Rooney is not playing well at the time). Rooney would be better just playing in between the CB's at all time, especially off the ball which is period of play I'm focusing on. Get Rooney running the channels and get him more touches in the box. I don't think our squad is suited to the 10 running off of Rooney, it's better suited to a natural 10 like Mata (or Herrera as an attack minded 8) in behind a natural 9 like Rooney. Fellaini's role this year will be intriguing as he can create a lot of problems peeling off onto the full-backs as a 10 for us, obviously the issue is finding him with crosses.

It's a bit of a jigsaw up top at the moment.

 

[MDFC Manager]

It's a bit of a jigsaw up top at the moment.

Agreed. The back 7 seems to be nailed on at the moment, in the sense that there isn't much experimentation to do there. The front 4 however is a different story. I expect some shuffling and experimentation to happen in that area for a few more weeks.

 

[#07]

But the weird thing last night is Mata, Januzaj and Rooney were nearly blocking space for each other, our goal came from Mata being on the wrong side. Rooney is playing like a 10 at the moment and that is his worst position (in spite of pundits insisting it's his best, they seem to switch between 9 and 10 depending on wherever Rooney is not playing well at the time). Rooney would be better just playing in between the CB's at all time, especially off the ball which is period of play I'm focusing on. Get Rooney running the channels and get him more touches in the box. I don't think our squad is suited to the 10 running off of Rooney, it's better suited to a natural 10 like Mata (or Herrera as an attack minded 8) in behind a natural 9 like Rooney. Fellaini's role this year will be intriguing as he can create a lot of problems peeling off onto the full-backs as a 10 for us, obviously the issue is finding him with crosses.

It's a bit of a jigsaw up top at the moment.

Everything depends on the phase of play. As mentioned Van Gaal sees four distinct phases in how a team goes from attack to defence. Feeding into that he thinks the most effective ways to open an opposition are to create overloads or quickly switch play or do both simultaneously.

It is not an issue if a player goes to the 'wrong side' provided it takes place within the structure of Van Gaal's philosophy. For example, our first goal against Villa at home last season came from Herrera abandoning the right sided centre midfield position to overload the left side of the pitch. Because of how we moved the ball Herrera arrived late as the spare man and was able to have time and space to score. That is a text book Van Gaal goal.

Van Gaal does not think footballers should be in rigid lines like on a fussball table. On the contrary they must make the right decisions based upon the phase of play. Mata came over from the right hand side of the pitch because that's where the ball was. When Mata moves from the right, he leaves the opposition left back with a decision: follow or leave him free. If he follows then our right back can move up the touchline in space for a switch of play. If the opposition full back doesn't follow Mata, Mata can be free and overload the left side the pitch and that's what happened.

Van Gaal's football system is a bit like chess: take up positions that move the other team's pieces, to overload the opponent and not be left overloaded yourself. It involves a high degree of risk because it depends on possession. Had we lost the ball and Villa switched it quickly we'd have been left 2 vs 1 on our right. That is why Van Gaal wants the lines to close tight and for us to press so furiously. When it works it always means you have an extra man, and there is space for someone arriving late into the box on the other side of the play.

Rooney dropping deep is only an issue in isolation to the movement of the rest of our players when we attack. Messi played false #9 for years and it never had any adverse impact on Barca. Spain won Euro 2012 with a false #9 in most games too. I don't think the attacking line looked confused. I thought they regrouped and recirculated the ball well several times. The main issue was not Rooney's positioning but Rooney's touch. We could've mounted more breakaways had he managed to receive and recycle the ball consistently. Last night almost every ball into his feet led to the breakdown of our moves. If Rooney could hit form we'd exploit our positive positions much better.

 

[ArmchairCritic]

Everything depends on the phase of play. As mentioned Van Gaal sees four distinct phases in how a team goes from attack to defence. Feeding into that he thinks the most effective ways to open an opposition are to create overloads or quickly switch play or do both simultaneously.

It is not an issue if a player goes to the 'wrong side' provided it takes place within the structure of Van Gaal's philosophy. For example, our first goal against Villa at home last season came from Herrera abandoning the right sided centre midfield position to overload the left side of the pitch. Because of how we moved the ball Herrera arrived late as the spare man and was able to have time and space to score. That is a text book Van Gaal goal.

Van Gaal does not think footballers should be in rigid lines like on a fussball table. On the contrary they must make the right decisions based upon the phase of play. Mata came over from the right hand side of the pitch because that's where the ball was. When Mata moves from the right, he leaves the opposition left back with a decision: follow or leave him free. If he follows then our right back can move up the touchline in space for a switch of play. If the opposition full back doesn't follow Mata, Mata can be free and overload the left side the pitch and that's what happened.

Van Gaal's football system is a bit like chess: take up positions that move the other team's pieces, to overload the opponent and not be left overloaded yourself. It involves a high degree of risk because it depends on possession. Had we lost the ball and Villa switched it quickly we'd have been left 2 vs 1 on our right. That is why Van Gaal wants the lines to close tight and for us to press so furiously. When it works it always means you have an extra man, and there is space for someone arriving late into the box on the other side of the play.

Rooney dropping deep is only an issue in isolation to the movement of the rest of our players when we attack. Messi played false #9 for years and it never had any adverse impact on Barca. Spain won Euro 2012 with a false #9 in most games too. I don't think the attacking line looked confused. I thought they regrouped and recirculated the ball well several times. The main issue was not Rooney's positioning but Rooney's touch. We could've mounted more breakaways had he managed to receive and recycle the ball consistently. Last night almost every ball into his feet led to the breakdown of our moves. If Rooney could hit form we'd exploit our positive positions much better.

That's the big problem, Rooney isn't good enough to play like a false 9, he's like 10 yards off of where he's best playing. It doesn't excuse his poor performance but if he keeps playing where he is it might not get much better if we do buy a striker because Rooney's just not getting into the box or into channels where he can make a difference.

My beef is more Rooney's positioning in the defensive phase, it just doesn't seem right.

 

[roykeane19]

I really think his style of possession football will not work with our team, Arsenal, and City play possession football and they do it the right way. I just think it doesnt play to our players strengths, and restricts attacking

Maybe it worked at Ajax, barcelona , and bayern, but they had top quality world class players to win them games, sort of how his Holland side, where so dependant on Robben, while rest of them were pretty shackled

 

[RedMilo]

Abandoning our heritage for Champions League football is the name of the game for the LVG reign, i just hope his successor is more inkeeping with MUFC flair that people tend to forget turned us into a worldwide brand in the first place. Lets not win for the sake of winning, lets go out and play with attacking intent and confidence that inspires people. Allowing good players to express themselves without fear of try something other than sideways possession may actually be the making of someone like Adnan or Depay, oh man I wish they had played under SAF.

 

[Empire]

I really think his style of possession football will not work with our team, Arsenal, and City play possession football and they do it the right way. I just think it doesnt play to our players strengths, and restricts attacking

Maybe it worked at Ajax, barcelona , and bayern, but they had top quality world class players to win them games, sort of how his Holland side, where so dependant on Robben, while rest of them were pretty shackled

The first 10 matches last season we were awful getting 13 from 10, the last five after that loss to Chelsea we stopped playing, that middle phase of 23 matches is how i'd expect our results to be over 38 this season, he got 52 points from 23, over 38 that's 86 points so it is promising considering the team he has now is much better (but also more games).

We'll see if he can consistently outscore the opposition, that's the main thing this season, Chelsea outscored the opposition in 26 of 38 matches last season, we've got to get something similar, we'll see if the attack steps up but as you say if they don't then it could be a lot of draws.

 

[slir32]

Van Gaal: "I like a second striker in that position more than a third midfielder. That is why, for example, Herrera is not playing but is always coming in because he is more of a controlling midfielder there." (if that is a real quote)

No 3 man midfield for us this season (433).

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Van Gaal: "I like a second striker in that position more than a third midfielder. That is why, for example, Herrera is not playing but is always coming in because he is more of a controlling midfielder there." (if that is a real quote)

No 3 man midfield for us this season (433).

It's the fact that he says he wants a 2nd striker there, but has to keep bringing Herrera in because it obviously not working. Not sure two strikers will work all the time.

 

[Empire]

It's the fact that he says he wants a 2nd striker there, but has to keep bringing Herrera in because it obviously not working. Not sure two strikers will work all the time.

It would be more effective if the second striker was very good and also the first striker, Rooney hasn't done too well just yet and Memphis needs to train the position and Januzaj needs to improve too, I think he will go for the third midfielder eventually unless Rooney finds form and whoever plays behind him.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

It would be more effective if the second striker was very good and also the first striker, Rooney hasn't done too well just yet and Memphis needs to train the position and Januzaj needs to improve too, I think he will go for the third midfielder eventually unless Rooney finds form and whoever plays behind him.

Maybe we should play Ander as the main striker, he has a better touch than Wayne.