L'Oreal sack first transgender model for racism

[Moved To Differently]

White privilege is silly to me. Humans are much more complex than this. On my way to work this morning I saw a black woman in a suit ignore a homeless white guy asking for change. Still, I bet he's glad he's privileged though, otherwise that might really get him down.

Really what has that got to with literally anything that's been said in this thread other than to refute the idea of white privilege? Do you not believe white privilege to exist?

 

[villain]

It is indeed.

However, it's not the correct reply to why his earlier points keep getting picked up on.

We were discussing her actual words and the reason she got sacked. At least I was. This isn't really about white people being offended and having to right to be and all that, it's simply a case of being sacked for making racist comments. Which she clearly did, and continues to stand by.

But the thread is clearly going the way of all the other on race, it'll end up being word for word the same. Shame, but that's just how it goes I guess.

I don't really care that she was sacked.
Also I think this is hypocritical on L'Oreal's part, given they have Cheryl Cole as part of their diversity campaign, the one who punched and insulted the black toilet worker and was convicted for it?
No outrage over her inclusion though, especially by all these angry non-racist white people? Thought not.

I don't really see how a company tried to champion diversity then fired someone for speaking out against systemic racism, purely because white people got personally offended.

 

[Moved To Differently]

You posted that there was a difference between "racism" and "racialism"... I posted that the dictionary disagrees with your assessment.

Well I'm asking to apply your own logic and understanding of the English language, not purely adhere to one of many definitons of a word in one of many different dictionaries. If I ask you what your racial heritage is, what am I asking you? In all likelihood?

 

[villain]

White privilege has literally nothing to do with being rich or poor.

Why do people still not get this, when google is available?

 

[2 man midfield]

Really what has that got to with literally anything that's been said in this thread other than to refute the idea of white privilege? Do you not believe white privilege to exist?

What do you mean "what has that got to with literally anything"?

I'm replying to your post! You yourself posted these very words: "every white person enjoys white privilege".

Would I refute that? Damn right I would.

 

[IWat]

However, this story made me think about that. We live in a world where our schools and universities are mixed race and sex but predominantly ran by white males. Our biggest and most successful companies employ millions of non-whites and women but are run mainly by white males. Most of our senior police chiefs and army officers are white males. The Football League is full of black/asian players but 95% of the managers and owners are white males. Our TV personalities and broadcasters/media are usually white males (apart from the odd "token totty" on stuff like Sky Sports)

Perhaps most significantly, most of the world's wealthiest people are white males and their influence is huge. How can we have equality amongst races when wealth has been concentrated mainly in the hands of whites for centuries?

The problem is, this it is almost like the issue with women. People who are in senior positions in organisations, the army etc.. Started their careers decades ago, a lot of them went to top universities and then spent decades working themselves up the chain when the men/women white/black imbalance was greater. Now that the sands are shifting, to see the effects you have to look at the bottom of the chain. You can't just magic people with decades of experience and the required education to fill senior roles. For example in the 70's the ratio of men/women white/black graduating from Oxford or Cambridge was heavily slanted towards white men, therefore 40 years later when that generation are filling senior positions you see a lot more white men. If you have 10 candidates and 8 are men, 2 are women, 9 are white and 1 is black, the odds are that a white male is going to end up being the best candidate.

 

[2 man midfield]

White privilege has literally nothing to do with being rich or poor.

Why do people still not get this, when google is available?

So some white guy living on the streets, hoping the wind and rain doesn't blow away his newspaper, he's more privileged than every single black person there is, just because he's white? Beyonce goes past in her limo and he's supposed to feel sorry for her?

 

[villain]

What do you mean "what has that got to with literally anything"?

I'm replying to your post! You yourself posted these very words: "every white person enjoys white privilege".

Would I refute that? Damn right I would.

What is white privilege?

 

[villain]

So some white guy living on the streets, hoping the wind and rain doesn't blow away his newspaper, he's more privileged than every single black person there is, just because he's white? Beyonce goes past in her limo and he's supposed to feel sorry for her?

What do inividual extreme circumstances have to do with systemic and institutionalised racism?

 

[MadMike]

Again, you can interpret what I said in the way that best suits you or you can go back and read what I said and what it was in response to and you'll probably find yourself in agreement. As to the second point, racism in the west came from white imperialists, that's pretty irrefutable.

I'm sorry, but there's nothing at all that I'm in agreement with here. And with every sentence I read, I'm less inclined to believe we'll agree in anything.

 

[2 man midfield]

What is white privilege?

What do you think it is? I'll let you answer first since you seem to think me uneducated on the subject.

 

[Carolina Red]

The problem is, this it is almost like the issue with women. People who are in senior positions in organisations, the army etc.. Started their careers decades ago, a lot of them went to top universities and then spent decades working themselves up the chain when the men/women white/black imbalance was greater. Now that the sands are shifting, to see the effects you have to look at the bottom of the chain. You can't just magic people with decades of experience and the required education to fill senior roles. For example in the 70's the ratio of men/women white/black graduating from Oxford or Cambridge was heavily slanted towards white men, therefore 40 years later when that generation are filling senior positions you see a lot more white men. If you have 10 candidates and 8 are men, 2 are women, 9 are white and 1 is black, the odds are that a white male is going to end up being the best candidate.

Exactly.

You can't fast forward through the effects of history on the present day. It runs its course, whether you like it or not.

 

[villain]

What do you think it is? I'll let you answer first since you seem to think me uneducated on the subject.

I know what it is. You seem stuck on thinking it has to do with rich black people and poor white people.
So you tell me, since I asked the question.

 

[berbatrick]

When systemic problems become too large to ignore, when socialists start gaining millions of votes, for example, or when black people riot and rebel in the streets, the news media is forced to provide some explanation. And in doing so, they typically give us fractured glimpses of reality. But rarely do they piece together the entire picture. Consider four separate news stories from last year.

The first is the continuing crisis of the opioid addiction crisis in this country. There are two million people addicted to opioids in the United States, a disproportionate number of whom are white. From 2009 to 2014, almost half a million people have died from opioid overdoses, a fourfold increase since 1999.

A second story, briefly in the news, reported on the decline in life expectancy for white women. It is unprecedented for life expectancy to reverse in a so-called first-world country. In the United States peer countries, life expectancy is actually growing. Why is life expectancy for working-class white women in decline? Drug overdose, suicide, and alcohol abuse.

In Chicago, the story has been the rise in shootings and murders in the city’s working-class black neighborhoods. In 2016, there were 4,379 people shot in Chicago, and 797 people killed. The overwhelmingly majority of both were African-American.

The news media’s nonsensical explanations for the violence include retaliation. But that is only matched by the nonsense offered by elected officials, which includes the absence of role models and poor parenting. What is almost never offered as at least part of the answer is how Chicago has the highest black unemployment rate of the nation’s five largest cities at 25 percent, that nearly half of black men aged 20 to 24 are neither in school nor employed, that Chicago has the third-highest poverty rateof large cities in the US, and that it is the most segregated city in the country.

Finally, there is the story of the shrinking of the so-called middle class. In the 1970s, 61 percent of Americans fell into that vague but stable category. Today, that number has fallen to 50 percent. It is driven by the growing wealth inequality that exists in this country.

In the last year alone, the one percent saw their income rise by seven percent, and the .1 percent saw their income rise by 9 percent. In general, the richest 20 percent of US households own 84 percent of the wealth in this country, while the bottom 40 percent own less than one percent.

The media would have us believe that this is a story primarily about the Rust Belt and disgruntled white workers. In fact, it is also a story about 240,000 black homeowners, who lost their houses to foreclosures in the last eight years. It is also a story about urban school closures and the decimation of employment for black educators. Thousands of black teachers have been fired in the last decade.

These four prominent stories reported on over the last several years are often told separately, reinforcing the perception that different groups of ordinary people in this country live in their own world and have experiences that are wholly separate from each other. But what would happen if we put these stories together, and told them as a single narrative about life in this country?

If we told them together, it could allow us to see that the anxieties, stresses, confusions, and frustrations about life world today are not owned by one group, but are shared by many. It would not tell us that everyone suffers the same oppression, but it would allow us to see that even if we don’t experience a particular kind of oppression, every working person in this country is going through something. Everyone is trying to figure out how to survive, and many are failing.

If we put these stories together, we would gain more insight into how ordinary white people have as much stake in the fight for a different kind of society as anyone else.

We wouldn’t so casually dismiss their suffering as privilege, because they do not suffer as much as black and brown people in this country. In fact, we might find that the privileges of white skin run very thin in a country where nineteen million white people languish in poverty.

Apparently, the wages of whiteness are not so great that they can stop millions of ordinary white people from literally drinking and drugging themselves to death, to escape the despair of living in this “greatest country on earth.”

 

[2 man midfield]

I know what it is. You seem stuck on thinking it has to do with rich black people and poor white people.
So you tell me, since I asked the question.

It's the misguided belief that just because a person is white, anything they earn was handed to them on a plate. Did they do anything to deserve it?

 

[Redlambs]

I don't really care that she was sacked.
Also I think this is hypocritical on L'Oreal's part, given they have Cheryl Cole as part of their diversity campaign, the one who punched and insulted the black toilet worker and was convicted for it?
No outrage over her inclusion though, especially by all these angry non-racist white people? Thought not.

I don't really see how a company tried to champion diversity then fired someone for speaking out against systemic racism, purely because white people got personally offended.

Maybe because we are talking about a specific subject that happened? I didn't even know Cheryl whateverhernameisnow was a part of L'Oreal and on that part I then agree.

I'm not offended and nor am I campaigning something or another so I'm not sure what your post is supposed to mean to me overall mate.


Racism should not be tolerated in any form. But if you are going to be in the public eye making a point against it, however valid the underlying point may be, you certainly shouldn't be racist yourself about it. She was and she got fired for it, just like anybody else would.

Again, people should not be hired and fired based on skin colour.

 

[Lentwood]

So some white guy living on the streets, hoping the wind and rain doesn't blow away his newspaper, he's more privileged than every single black person there is, just because he's white? Beyonce goes past in her limo and he's supposed to feel sorry for her?

Mate i've got to agree with @vi1lain - I am not sure you really understand what "white privelege" is! It doesn't literally mean that every white person has more than every black person!

 

[Carolina Red]

If I ask you what your racial heritage is, what am I asking you? In all likelihood?

I'm going to assume you're asking me about my ancestral genetics and ethnicity.

 

[Redlambs]

So if, in your mind she wasn't being racist, then how come you agree with her being sacked?

Did you answer this @Moved To Differently ?

 

[2 man midfield]

Mate i've got to agree with @vi1lain - I am not sure you really understand what "white privelege" is! It doesn't literally mean that every white person has more than every black person!

That's just an example. I don't think it's restricted to wealth, but try telling homeless Dave he's got it pretty damn good and needs to think himself lucky. I highly doubt that he'd see your point of view.

 

[villain]

It's the misguided belief that just because a person is white, anything they earn was handed to them on a plate. Did they do anything to deserve it?

Misguided? So what is systemic and institutional racism?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

So some white guy living on the streets, hoping the wind and rain doesn't blow away his newspaper, he's more privileged than every single black person there is, just because he's white? Beyonce goes past in her limo and he's supposed to feel sorry for her?

Of course not. But he's more privileged than a black man in the same circumstances. Which is what people mean by white privilege. It's not necessarily a massively influential thing at an individual level but it doesn't need to be, to have an impact at a population level.

 

[Lentwood]

The problem is, this it is almost like the issue with women. People who are in senior positions in organisations, the army etc.. Started their careers decades ago, a lot of them went to top universities and then spent decades working themselves up the chain when the men/women white/black imbalance was greater. Now that the sands are shifting, to see the effects you have to look at the bottom of the chain. You can't just magic people with decades of experience and the required education to fill senior roles. For example in the 70's the ratio of men/women white/black graduating from Oxford or Cambridge was heavily slanted towards white men, therefore 40 years later when that generation are filling senior positions you see a lot more white men. If you have 10 candidates and 8 are men, 2 are women, 9 are white and 1 is black, the odds are that a white male is going to end up being the best candidate.

I don't totally disagree with this but is it changing and is it changing fast enough? How do we explain the lack of black football managers? Because just as many black players have retired as white players in the last 10yrs but only a tiny percentage get a chance as a manager. Why do we still fixate on race when a black person gets a top job? As if its something we should pat ourselves on the back for? Or a woman for that matter?

It's a really tricky one. The basic stats would suggest that especially in the US the gap is widening not getting closer

 

[Redlambs]

That's just an example. I don't think it's restricted to wealth, but try telling homeless Dave he's got it pretty damn good and needs to think himself lucky. I highly doubt that he'd see your point of view.

Tbf mate, I very much doubt any black person goes around expecting white people to feel sorry for them.

That's nothing like what is meant by white priviledge.

 

[2 man midfield]

Misguided? So what is systemic and institutional racism?

It doesn't exist. It has more to do with culture than race.

 

[Lentwood]

White privilege - If you are white, you are statistically more likely to live longer, earn more, stay in school longer, get secondary or tertiary education, have access to affordable healthcare and less likely to go to jail or become addicted to substances.

Now, a racist would say thats because white's are superior to black's or try to deny those statistics. Most would say whites are NOT superior to blacks and therefore those stats must tell the tale of an inherint bias in society, or to put it another way, a white privelege

 

[2cents]

White privilege obviously exists, the question for me is whether as a force it overrides alternative non-racial forms of systemic oppression - especially class.

 

[Sweet Square]

By being a normal human being and not judging someone based on the color of their skin?

This isn't enough. Your right about the power of wealth, so we have to ask ourselves why this wealth(and essentially power)is almost always with a small proportion of the planet(mostly concentrated in the white North), why that even when a tiny share of this wealth is ''redistributed'' - The New Deal in the US or the Britain after WW2(Plus the foundations of NHS) it comes at the cost of people of colour and then why when people of colour are in positions of power in the West almost none of this changes.

Yes her first post was lazy(Talking about privilege when your a model is only going to piss people off)and its not surprise she got fired but her views on systemic racism is both undeniable true and much needed. The fact is we are communication on machines made up of materials dug up by Black African children under slave labour and put together by Chinese labour camps, theres a reason why white Westerns aren't in this position.

Is she? First sentence in that video is "Racism comes from white culture...". Didn't even bother listening after that.

I did criticise that part mainly because it plays into the narrative white nationalist/supremacists like to talk about, plus theres no such thing as white culture.

 

[villain]

It doesn't exist. It has more to do with culture than race.

Systemic and institutional racism doesn't exist?

 

[Redlambs]

I don't totally disagree with this but is it changing and is it changing fast enough? How do we explain the lack of black football managers? Because just as many black players have retired as white players in the last 10yrs but only a tiny percentage get a chance as a manager. Why do we still fixate on race when a black person gets a top job? As if its something we should pat ourselves on the back for? Or a woman for that matter?

It's a really tricky one. The basic stats would suggest that especially in the US the gap is widening not getting closer

No, it's not changing fast enough. But it is changing thankfully.

Sadly stuff like this doesn't really help though. At very least, it gives ammumition to the very people she was addressing in the first place.

 

[Carolina Red]

I don't totally disagree with this but is it changing and is it changing fast enough? How do we explain the lack of black football managers? Because just as many black players have retired as white players in the last 10yrs but only a tiny percentage get a chance as a manager. Why do we still fixate on race when a black person gets a top job? As if its something we should pat ourselves on the back for? Or a woman for that matter?

It's a really tricky one. The basic stats would suggest that especially in the US the gap is widening not getting closer

It's quite tricky. Artificially speeding things up, to me, won't and doesn't work.

I don't think that race or gender should play into if a person is hired or not. I wouldn't want to be hired just to fill a quota. Hire me to coach your team because you think I'm the best candidate for the job, that's it.

 

[villain]

White privilege obviously exists, the question for me is whether as a force it overrides alternative non-racial forms of systemic oppression - especially class.

There was a report that black boys are 9x as likely to go to prison for the same crimes as white boys in the uk, just a few days ago and that's just one example - so I'm gonna say no.

 

[horsechoker]

White privilege obviously exists, the question for me is whether as a force it overrides alternative non-racial forms of systemic oppression - especially class.

I don't think it does, a rich black person will probably have more privileges than a poor white person. It's just few cases of a black person having far more privileges than a white person exist and being black stays with them as they move up the social ladder. Class will lessen the effects of racism but it will not eradicate them. Black people driving a Mercedes (or other high end cars) are probably more likely to be pulled over by the police because "why would someone like that being driving a Mercedes?". Money makes the world go round and I'd rather live Jaden Smith's life than as a poor white person.

 

[2cents]

There was a report that black boys are 9x as likely to go to prison for the same crimes as white boys in the uk, just a few days ago and that's just one example - so I'm gonna say no.

Ah, this explains everything.

 

[2 man midfield]

White privilege - If you are white, you are statistically more likely to live longer, Women outlive men, are they privileged? earn more, Because they choose better paying jobs stay in school longer, their choice get secondary or tertiary education, again, their choice have access to affordable healthcare and less likely to go to jail the reason for more black people going to jail than white people is more black people committing crimes. These people stand trial, don't they? or become addicted to substances.

People are far too quick to absolve themselves of any responsibility and blame it on the system for keeping them down. All of those things are changed by personal choices, if you make good ones then you can end up like Beyonce, or any of the other black people who have done well. There's no big, bad white man keeping them down. Take responsibility for your own life, make good choices and it will pay off.

 

[Sweet Square]

@berbatrick

Keeanga Yamahtta Taylor speech ? If so

 

[Carolina Red]

White privilege - If you are white, you are statistically more likely to live longer, earn more, stay in school longer, get secondary or tertiary education, have access to affordable healthcare and less likely to go to jail or become addicted to substances.

Now, a racist would say thats because white's are superior to black's or try to deny those statistics. Most would say whites are NOT superior to blacks and therefore those stats must tell the tale of an inherint bias in society, or to put it another way, a white privelege

I think their choice of "white privilege" as the term was stupid.

What you're looking at is the effect on the present day of centuries of history that are almost completely out our hands (accounting for Civil Rights Era, Apartheid, etc).

There's many other ways to describe that phenomenon than to imply that all whites are "privileged".

 

[IWat]

I don't totally disagree with this but is it changing and is it changing fast enough? How do we explain the lack of black football managers? Because just as many black players have retired as white players in the last 10yrs but only a tiny percentage get a chance as a manager. Why do we still fixate on race when a black person gets a top job? As if its something we should pat ourselves on the back for? Or a woman for that matter?

It's a really tricky one. The basic stats would suggest that especially in the US the gap is widening not getting closer

You can't really rush it though can you? If you're looking for a new Chief Financial Officer of a large company, the basic requirements you are going to be looking for is someone who has accounting qualifications and has been in previous senior finance positions within large companies. You can't just magically make the ratio of white/black in those positions in proportion to the population, because for someone to even be a candidate for those less-senior senior positions you are looking at needing 15-20 years of relevant experience. You can't do that in a few years.

I agree it's complex. With football I can't find any data on the proportion or number of players in the English leagues circa 1995 by race (Around when you'd expect them to now be going into management after potentially being an assistant or coaching etc), but from my limited memory as I was a child then, it was significantly less than now. Black managers would still though I agree appear to be under-represented, but then when it comes to players they would appear to be over-represented.

 

[horsechoker]

There was a report that black boys are 9x as likely to go to prison for the same crimes as white boys in the uk, just a few days ago and that's just one example - so I'm gonna say no.

Could you link it? I'm sure it could be more correlation with class as I imagine black people in the UK are largely working class where whom I would think are the most likely to go to prison be they white, black or Asian.

 

[Redlambs]

It's quite tricky. Artificially speeding things up, to me, won't and doesn't work.

I don't think that race or gender should play into if a person is hired or not. I wouldn't want to be hired just to fill a quota. Hire me to coach your team because you think I'm the best candidate for the job, that's it.

Exactly how it should be.

Tbh, I'm a little confused as a white man what I'm supposed to be doing about all this. I raise my two little boys to love and respect everyone, I teach them that every is and should be the same. As a small employer, I hire the best people for the job, no matter skin colour or country of birth.

And I'm not even an employer in a field where skin colour holds people back either, at our last major meeting I was very much in the minority by skin colour!

So yeah, whilst it's undeniable white priviledge is still very much a thing, and racism is still very more to the fore, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be doing more about it. I just keep seeing I'm supposed to do more though.