Except that most substantial element of the FSA combatants are Al Qaeda militias - heck the Nusra front make up the highest number of FSA subsidiary fighters. So naturally any weapons that get gifted to the FSA are inevitably going to end up in the holsters of AQ militants - the UK knows it, the FSA knows it, everyone knows it. So yes, the UK and France can very much be accused of arming terrorists.
Livestream out of Syria
- Thread starter ooeat0meoo
- Start date
Except that most substantial element of the FSA combatants are Al Qaeda militias - heck the Nusra front make up the highest number of FSA subsidiary fighters. So naturally any weapons that get gifted to the FSA are inevitably going to end up in the holsters of AQ militants - the UK knows it, the FSA knows it, everyone knows it. So yes, the UK and France can very much be accused of arming terrorists.
Sunnis are about 75% and Alawites are 12% with the rest a mixture of Kurds, Druze, and Christians. Any way you slide and dice it Allawites are massively outnumbered by non Alawites.
The bolded bit in your post is a false choice as I'm sure a majority of Syrians would like more say in how their country is governed (ie a Democratic system) which neither Assad nor the Islamist elements who are coming from the outside can provide, but that the core FSA consisting of Syrians without Islamist elements can. You can't have a debate like this without including the aspirations of people to have the same freedoms as in western nations, which is why most of these movements in the middle east started in the same place.
I agree with you that there is a chance that some of the weapons could end up in the hands of elements for which they weren't intended, but from the perspective of the nations providing them, that's an acceptable risk given that dislodging Assad would be the main goal, just as it was with Qaddafi in Libya.
But, what about this huge war going on terrorism and anybody who supports terrorism though? Does it mean that there are ifs and whens when it comes to fighting/supporting terrorist organisations? I thought we condemned any countries that give support to terrorist organisations and said: there is no excuse for that!
So if Britain and France are ready to support terrorist organisations if that serves their interests, then why can't other countries do it if it supports their interests? Is terrorism turning into a tool to serve the interest of some nations, rather than the interests of the civilians everywhere in the world? Not that it will matter much, but it will be kind of pointless having a black list for terrorist organisations when you yourself support those in the list, when you see suitable.
I'm guessing that Western nations involved in discussions are assessing that the terrorism angle is being overplayed by those trying to scare people into believing "its either Assad or Al-Qaeda", when there are clearly more options involved.
Your source was counting the Sunni Kurds with the Sunni Arabs. Here is a full break-down for the Syrian population:
Ethno-religious composition of Syria
- Arab-Sunni (61%)
- Arab-Alawite (11%)
- Kurd-Sunni (10%)
- Greek Orthodox Christian (8%)
- Armenian-Christian (4%)
- Arab-Druze (3%)
- Turkmen-Sunni (2%)
- Arab-Ismaeli, Circassian-Sunni, Assyrian-Christian and others (1%)
Source
About the second part, first, SS himself said that Al-Nusra Front are the best out there for him among the opposition.
Second, there are no guarantees that if Assad falls then the Syrians are going to get freedom and democracy, especially with Al-Qaeda being the strongest member in the opposition. Just take a look at what's happening now in Libya.. Don't you think it's about time to stop the madness?
Well, Britain, France, and the US apparently don't think so.
They will eventually, whether it takes a few years is up for debate. The US and others would definitely invade if things go down hill there as its located in a strategic area with a lot of spill over potential.
I see, so Alawites are actually 11% rather than the 12% I previously posted. That's obviously not very much and not nearly enough to allow a proper vote.
It's not just about freedom anymore, it's more about taking revenge from Assad for everything he has done and for everyone that he has killed and if you go to cities like Homs, Hama, Idlib, Der El-Zour every family has people in the FSA and people who died in protests, and those people, don't want freedom anymore, they want to see Assad dead.
Then they're just being flippant after what they say now about how things are going in Libya.. And Al-Qaeda didn't even have a role in Libya as prominenet (according to what the West admitted before the fall of Ghaddafi) as they do now in Syria! (Although the picture was pretty clear for anybody who is seeking the truth, and is not willing to try to underplay the terrorism angle deliberately to achieve another target that serves his shot-term interests.)
By the way, I had the same position on Libya at the time, and ironically, I was met here by the same reply.. Now we moved on from Libya apparently, trying to forget what happened there as hard as we can, so we can start again in Syria.
What about the families of the people killed by the FSA and Al-Nusra? More than 50 carbombs have led to thousands of casualties among civilians.
What about the children and women who were killed by the rockets of the FSA and Al-Nusra front?
What about the killing and kidnapping (many of them for ransom) that became a phenomenon in most towns they control?
What about their crimes against the Lebanese people in Al-Qasayr (which might have been their worst mistake in the whole fight)?
But thank you for supporting my point. Nobody is fighting for freedom or democracy now, and most Syrians now realize that what they'll get in the post-Assad era is a blood bath for you if you don't agree with the winners (even being dead won't protect you if you're against them, as they might eat your heart, or if you're dead for more than 1000 years, then they'll just destroy your shrine, dig up your grave, and shoot the bones.)
I didn't dodge it, most people now support Al-Nusra front, they are the strongest and most organized, also they never steal and they actually provide for the poor and for those who lost everything, as for the Kurds, I have Kurds relatives, my aunt's husband is a Kurd and he has been against Bashar since forever, you have to look at all the rights Bashar took from the Kurds, it's against the law for Kurds to teach their kids the Kurdish language, they don't have schools, they don't even have an identity, I can look for some Kurds protests if you want and post them.
That's because they have very strong backers in rich Qatar and Saudi. Doesn't make them any less bad mind you, and they're after all Al-Qaeda, so we kind of know what's coming.
Also I didn't say the Kurds position about Bashar is unlcear. They're pretty much against every governement in every country they're in. I was talking specifically about this fight between Al-Nusra Front (and the FSA) and Assad. They didn't even take part in the fights for the most part, and when they did fight, they fought both Assad and the FSA, until recentlly (2-3 months ago, when the Al-Nusra Front and the FSA started losing heavily in the battles), when the FSA signed a deal with the Kurds to fight Assad only, but even after that, there have been talks recently among Al-Nusra (and the FSA) ranks about a possible "betrayal" and "under-the-table" deals between Assad and the Kurds, that even escalated and led to the FSA and the Kurds clashing again recently..
Not saying they're siding with Assad, but their position is not really clear in the conflict.
BBC Breaking News @BBCBreaking 11m
Syrian rebel groups accuse main opposition Syrian National Coalition of "failing to represent the revolution"
hmmmm
Syrian rebel groups accuse main opposition Syrian National Coalition of "failing to represent the revolution"
hmmmm
The people who matter, the Syrians will not have a government that truly represents them. The West would like a pliant state receptive to their ideology and Russia wants to have some remaining influence in the middle east after seeming to always back the losing side.
This struggle will continue.
This struggle will continue.
Well they don't now, but would probably like to and that should be supported by all nations.
Grad missile firing on a Hizbullah stronghold in Southern Beirut and the killing of three Lebanese soldiers near the Lebanese-Syrian border suggest that violence is quickly spilling into Lebanon.
Any of our Lebanese Reds cares to offer some insight?
Any of our Lebanese Reds cares to offer some insight?
Too many foreign agitators /actors that will lead to another Iraq - a country divided along tribal, religious and ethnic lines.
You can't go from Dictator to Democracy - it needs to be gradual.
Of course you can, but I don't think it can happen in the Middle East in one step, where most of the population want Islamist rule. In Egypt, a majority of the protestors wanted something other than what they got, but the Muslim Brotherhood has broad support among the population. The protestors were a smaller group than the one that elected Morsi. A liberal democracy isn't possible in the current Middle East.
Countries can still go from dictator to democracy, but not with the excess baggage of religious fanaticism.
Don't expect this to be plasted all over the mainstream media or given much attention in this thread either.
Iraq uncovers al-Qaeda chemical weapons plot
The authorities in Iraq say they have uncovered an al-Qaeda plot to use chemical weapons, as well as to smuggle them to Europe and North America.
Defence ministry spokesman Mohammed al-Askari said five men had been arrested after military intelligence monitored their activities for three months.
Three workshops for manufacturing the chemical agents, including sarin and mustard gas, were uncovered, he added.
Remote-controlled toy planes were also seized at the workshops.
Mr Askari said they were to have been used to release the chemical agents over the target from a "safe" distance of 1.5km (0.9 miles), reports the BBC's Rami Ruhayem in Baghdad.
All of the arrested men had confessed to the plot, and said they had received instruction from another al-Qaeda offshoot, he added.
Why would they do that? The US, UK and France must have forgot to instruct them to use them in Syria or Iraq, silly Qaedas.
Ok, time for a funny story...
After meeting with the rebels McCain has insisted that the United States could locate the "right people" to help among rebel ranks infiltrated with radicalised Islamists.
As soon as he finished that major statement, pictures surfaced from that meeting showing that two of the people McCain met with were actually not only radicalised Islamists, but were also the kidnappers who kidnapped 11 Lebanese pilgrims more than a year ago.
Well... Senator McCain?
- "McCain didn’t realize he was posing with rebel kidnapper, and if that was true then it's regrettable." McCain's spokesman said.
At least we can count on the guarantees given by Mr. McCain..
After meeting with the rebels McCain has insisted that the United States could locate the "right people" to help among rebel ranks infiltrated with radicalised Islamists.
As soon as he finished that major statement, pictures surfaced from that meeting showing that two of the people McCain met with were actually not only radicalised Islamists, but were also the kidnappers who kidnapped 11 Lebanese pilgrims more than a year ago.
Well... Senator McCain?
- "McCain didn’t realize he was posing with rebel kidnapper, and if that was true then it's regrettable." McCain's spokesman said.
At least we can count on the guarantees given by Mr. McCain..
BBC Breaking News @BBCBreaking 21m
Rebels in Syria confirm that government troops have seized control of the strategically important town of Qusair. http://bbc.in/13ECI2U
Rebels in Syria confirm that government troops have seized control of the strategically important town of Qusair. http://bbc.in/13ECI2U
These cnuts have failed to developed any type of leadership in >2 years. As a collection of gangs they stand no chance whatsoever against an Iranian-Hizballah-Alawite front.
Where are all those "thousands of wounded civilians" that "needed to be treated and evacuated"?!
The identity of the real opposition and their leadership is clear, it's just that the West can't take them to the conference, because we all know who they are. So they keep trying to take other people to the conference, who in reality do not represent the real opposition on the ground. That won't be easy.
To be honest, I've lost interest long ago as there is little credible info coming out of Syria. On the face of it, the Syrian uprising appears to have been hijacked. It happened in Egypt and to some extent in Tunisia, and Syria appears to be half-way through the process, although it looks more and more like it's not going to be completed. With no organized opposition, the courage of the opressed population can only go as far as unstabalizing the autocratic regimes but then there is no stable alternative which allows radical cnuts to take control.
No shock that a uprising gets hijacked, not just in recent history but throughout history we have seen that. It is always a risk to any uprising that either some person or group will hijack or that they were using the people all along to just further their own personal cause. Odd creatures us human beings.
Priceless statement from the white house, the sheer hypocrisy of it gave me a good giggle:
Because the FSA definitely receive no outside help from the US, Al Qaeda, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Qatar, France and Britain 
Because the FSA definitely receive no outside help from the US, Al Qaeda, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Qatar, France and Britain
And were the rebels to be suddenly installed in power tomorrow their partners in government will be Al-Nusra, is their brand of tyranny more acceptable to the White House in the long run? I suppose they ahd to say something, only that statement further demonstrates the awkward nature of forming policy in regard to Syria.
If Assad continues to gain ground in the coming weeks he may agree to this peace summit for PR purposes, knowing full well that it won't go anywhere fast.
If Assad continues to gain ground in the coming weeks he may agree to this peace summit for PR purposes, knowing full well that it won't go anywhere fast.
Yes, most likely. The end game here for the white house is isolating Iran, if that means putting Sunni extremists at the helm then so be it. We've established that democracy and human rights have never been the primary intention for this intervention. An Al-Qaeda infested extremist state which antagonises Iran would be seen as preferable to a secular, Iran-friendly Syria. Its trademark US Realpolitik.
This pleases me.
Well technically speaking it was Hezbollah who seized it, still promising nonetheless. Perhaps the 10,000 Christians who were expelled by the FSA from Qusair can now return to their homes (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2012/06/vatican-christians-expelled-syria.html).
This was a great piece in today`s Telegraph by uber Tory, Peter Oborne.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...lain-why-he-has-put-us-on-al-Qaedas-side.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...lain-why-he-has-put-us-on-al-Qaedas-side.html
Caught that article this morning on the train, was spot on.
What I find peculiar is that a recent poll has shown that 78% of Britons oppose intervention in Syria, yet Cameron persists with his belligerent rhetoric. Its also amusing that Cameron (allegedly) wants to export democracy to Syria while he's defying the democratic consensus at home which oppose intervention.
succinctly put mate