Livestream out of Syria

Have you talked to any Egyptians old enough to have lived under either of the other two dictators? Life was significantly better under the other two. They both had their faults, especially Nasser, who decimated agriculture, lost every war he fought and treated Egypt's Jews in a despicable manner. But both, according to Egyptians I have spoken to, had Egyptians living in far better conditions than they do now. Sure, you weren't exactly going to set up political parties under any of them and if you had a beard and dared to speak about politics or Islam, you'd be spending a few years in his interior ministry's torture cells (this seems to be acceptable to people though for some reason, such Muslims are not humans I guess?).

But they had food (Average wage now is 100 LE. Cost of a kilo of meat i around 70). They had housing (Many Egyptians live on rooftop dwellings, slums, on the street or in Pharonic tombs. Without sewage, electricity, water of course). They had more money (40% now live in absolute poverty). They had healthcare (the overwhelming majority of the country cannot access healthcare). They had a good education (now, if you don't have the money for a tutor, your child is going nowhere in life). They had job prospects (you can own a master's degree in Egypt and still be happy with a job cooking chicken in a kebab shop). They had less corruption. They had a less unequal society. They were still producing films and tv shows (ie culture). They weren't dying on Egypt's death boats and trains. And, unlike under his predecessors, torture and murder by the security services didn't come about at random and without provocation.

As for the compliance, no democratically elected leader in the Arab world would ever dream of maintaining the blockade on Gaza as Mubarak did.

He failed to cut corruption. :lol: He was one of the main causes of corruption. Mubarak has many 'main faults'. He absolutely destroyed that country. Until the late 70s, most Egyptians didn't dream of leaving their homeland. Now most dream of finding any way out. Even risking their lives to do so.

I'm not quite sure what you expect of Egypt? A flourishing, Western style democracy within 18 months? This is as ridiculous as the calls for 'gradual democracy' which in Egypt's case was to move the presidency to the even more corrupt Gamal Mubarak. Egypt was on the verge of being a Pharonic country again and replacing one average, corrupt man with an even more average, even more corrupt man. No problem though, they'd be on the gradual road to democracy!

"No democratically elected leader in the Arab world would..."...hmmm...How could we tell? Listen, there are international committments, and if the Arabs are to learn what democracy is then they'll realise that accountability is part of the package. The Sinai-GS crossing points were supposed to be subject to PA and EU inspection, neither os them existed after the Hamas coup. Furthermore, Mubarak knew well that Hamas and MB are one, and kept the latter in check to an extent, although not to a level preventing Hamas smuggling weapons that were aimed at Israel.

I am not denying Mubarak was corrupt, but I guess the differences in standards of living you're describing have more to do with population growth than with a more honourable conduct of Sa'adat or Nasser. As for the latter, a pan-Arab hero, he would have been elected democratically no problem and look where he brought the Arab world under his leadership- thousands upon thousands of war casualties nevermind the economic burden and you're talking about destroying the country. Egypt is not in a state where 10's of millions can't read or write because of Husni Mubarak.
 
"No democratically elected leader in the Arab world would..."...hmmm...How could we tell? Listen, there are international committments, and if the Arabs are to learn what democracy is then they'll realise that accountability is part of the package. The Sinai-GS crossing points were supposed to be subject to PA and EU inspection, neither os them existed after the Hamas coup. Furthermore, Mubarak knew well that Hamas and MB are one, and kept the latter in check to an extent, although not to a level preventing Hamas smuggling weapons that were aimed at Israel.

I am not denying Mubarak was corrupt, but I guess the differences in standards of living you're describing have more to do with population growth than with a more honourable conduct of Sa'adat or Nasser. As for the latter, a pan-Arab hero, he would have been elected democratically no problem and look where he brought the Arab world under his leadership- thousands upon thousands of war casualties nevermind the economic burden and you're talking about destroying the country. Egypt is not in a state where 10's of millions can't read or write because of Husni Mubarak.

How could we tell? Because in a democracy, the elected leaders have to respond to the population. No Arab populace would agree to enforce the brutal blockade that was put over Gaza. Their spy chiefs wouldn't promise to make Gaza go hungry but oh thanks to the great Suleiman, not starve. The complicity Egypt had in starving Gazans is something that made Egyptians ashamed to be Egyptian.

You are indeed correct that accountability is part of being a democratic country. Which is why Egypt, whether under Shafiq or Mursi, will not go to war with Israel. For many reasons. Helping in the blockade is not the same as going to war with Israel. In the slightest.

The Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas are not one ffs, some of the propoganda coming out about the MB now is ridiculous.

With all due respect hr, your opinions on Egypt lead me to believe that you don't have a real grasp of what it has become like to live in Egypt or the facts around the situation. You have tried to suggest that the corruption, poverty and illiteracy prevalent across the whole of Egypt have nothing to do with Mubarak. :confused: One then has to ask what exactly a head of state, especially one with absolute powers, is meant to do then?

I suggested a book to you in the other thread to understand what he has done to that country. I would strongly suggest that book again. Just as an entry guide into the subject matter. In any country, regardless of how small or large the population is, promotion based on nepotism or on loyalty to the regime, rather than actual ability is always going to lead to stagnation at best and regression at worst.

Indeed. The Americans elected Bush (twice!). Israel continues to elect Netanyahu. The British public continued to elect Blair and have since elected Cameron. Even more democratically mature countries make mistakes in their voting choices. The two situations are different. Nasser controlled the media fully then. There was one radio channel and you get no prizes for guessing what kinds of things it broadcast. And was a very charismatic figure, in a post independence Egypt trying to find its place. Most importantly, voters always vote with domestic policy and issue foremost in their minds. And life under Nasser, even with all the lost wars, was much better than life under Mubarak has been. And to blame that simply on population growth, rather than on his policies, is a very poor cop-out.

I know Mubarak was seen as a hero in Israel and probably amongst successive American governments but Egyptians no longer have time to worry about the concerns of those two countries. Unsurprisingly, they're worries about putting food on the table, educating their children, making sure they have jobs, not dying of hepatits C etc. I find these ideas that Egyptians should be concerned by what Israel wants in their country or especially that the stupid, barbaric Arabs simply aren't ready for democracy quite racist to be honest. Democracy, in any setting, is always preferable to dictatorship, especially one akin to Mubarak's.
 
How could we tell? Because in a democracy, the elected leaders have to respond to the population. No Arab populace would agree to enforce the brutal blockade that was put over Gaza. Their spy chiefs wouldn't promise to make Gaza go hungry but oh thanks to the great Suleiman, not starve. The complicity Egypt had in starving Gazans is something that made Egyptians ashamed to be Egyptian.

If that Arab populace could not have been trusted to prevent arm smuggling to the GS Israel would not have retreated from the GS-Egyptian border.

You are indeed correct that accountability is part of being a democratic country. Which is why Egypt, whether under Shafiq or Mursi, will not go to war with Israel. For many reasons. Helping in the blockade is not the same as going to war with Israel. In the slightest.

Under an irresponsible leadership relationships could deterirate and get out of hand. Terrorism in Sinai, Hamas in Gaza are two of several potential flashpoints.

The Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas are not one ffs, some of the propoganda coming out about the MB now is ridiculous.

Hamas Covenant 1988

Article Two:
The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of Moslem Brotherhood in Palestine.



With all due respect hr, your opinions on Egypt lead me to believe that you don't have a real grasp of what it has become like to live in Egypt or the facts around the situation. You have tried to suggest that the corruption, poverty and illiteracy prevalent across the whole of Egypt have nothing to do with Mubarak. :confused: One then has to ask what exactly a head of state, especially one with absolute powers, is meant to do then?

I have to admit I really don't, but at the same time I have to say I didn't clear Mubarak from responsibility to the poor state of the country. What I did suggest was that it didn't start with him, and things would have probably been quite the same under any individual given the poilitical climate in 1981-Egypt.


I suggested a book to you in the other thread to understand what he has done to that country. I would strongly suggest that book again. Just as an entry guide into the subject matter. In any country, regardless of how small or large the population is, promotion based on nepotism or on loyalty to the regime, rather than actual ability is always going to lead to stagnation at best and regression at worst.

Unfortunately stagnation has characterized most of the Arab world for decades.

Indeed. The Americans elected Bush (twice!). Israel continues to elect Netanyahu. The British public continued to elect Blair and have since elected Cameron. Even more democratically mature countries make mistakes in their voting choices. The two situations are different. Nasser controlled the media fully then. There was one radio channel and you get no prizes for guessing what kinds of things it broadcast. And was a very charismatic figure, in a post independence Egypt trying to find its place. Most importantly, voters always vote with domestic policy and issue foremost in their minds. And life under Nasser, even with all the lost wars, was much better than life under Mubarak has been. And to blame that simply on population growth, rather than on his policies, is a very poor cop-out.

Losing the wars wasn't my point. It was fighting them which was a defeat in itself. Nasser brought terrible suffering on the Arab world, which didn't harm his popularity as he stood up for them Zionists and Yanks. I guess this beats "compliance" which brings decades of peace with it.


I know Mubarak was seen as a hero in Israel :lol: and probably amongst successive American governments but Egyptians no longer have time to worry about the concerns of those two countries. Unsurprisingly, they're worries about putting food on the table, educating their children, making sure they have jobs, not dying of hepatits C etc. I find these ideas that Egyptians should be concerned by what Israel wants in their country or especially that the stupid, barbaric Arabs simply aren't ready for democracy quite racist to be honest. Democracy, in any setting, is always preferable to dictatorship, especially one akin to Mubarak's.

Perhaps you'd be surprised that Israelis aren't worried with the troubles in Egypt as long as these don't spill across the border- likewise I don't expect Egyptians to share my worries. On the contrary, I'm aware of the anti-Israel sentiments in Egypt. I'm not sure what you were referring to in that last point you made- I'm not expecting anything from the Egyptians, nevermind the racism, barbarism rant.
 
If that Arab populace could not have been trusted to prevent arm smuggling to the GS Israel would not have retreated from the GS-Egyptian border.



Under an irresponsible leadership relationships could deterirate and get out of hand. Terrorism in Sinai, Hamas in Gaza are two of several potential flashpoints.



Hamas Covenant 1988

Article Two:
The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of Moslem Brotherhood in Palestine.





I have to admit I really don't, but at the same time I have to say I didn't clear Mubarak from responsibility to the poor state of the country. What I did suggest was that it didn't start with him, and things would have probably been quite the same under any individual given the poilitical climate in 1981-Egypt.




Unfortunately stagnation has characterized most of the Arab world for decades.



Losing the wars wasn't my point. It was fighting them which was a defeat in itself. Nasser brought terrible suffering on the Arab world, which didn't harm his popularity as he stood up for them Zionists and Yanks. I guess this beats "compliance" which brings decades of peace with it.




Perhaps you'd be surprised that Israelis aren't worried with the troubles in Egypt as long as these don't spill across the border- likewise I don't expect Egyptians to share my worries. On the contrary, I'm aware of the anti-Israel sentiments in Egypt. I'm not sure what you were referring to in that last point you made- I'm not expecting anything from the Egyptians, nevermind the racism, barbarism rant.

Keeping the border open does not mean allowing the unrestricted flow of weapons. Indeed they can. Egyptians are not stupid. Certainly not those who are running for office. Egyptians may not be the biggest fans of Israel, despise what they have done to the Palestinians, despise Mubarak for what he's done to the Gazans. They may want the 79 treaty revised or even cancelled. Very few actually want war though, they appreciate the trouncing that Egypt would receive in a war. Most importantly, the army, which will maintain huge power whoever wins, fills its pockets on $1.3 billion/year for keeping Israel's southern border quiet. I would assume they're not going to just give that up. Any attempt to threaten that from a civilian politician wouldn't end too well for them...

A lot of Egyptians are tetchy about what the Bedouins and other groups are doing to Egypt in the sinai. They're worried about the effect they are having on tourism and the potential effect on Egypt's sovereignty over the sinai if the Israelis get upset.

I am aware that Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood. However, they renounced violence in the 70s, whereas Hamas obviously continue to utilise terror on both their own population and the Israeli one.

I'm not saying Egypt would be all rosy if Mubarak wasn't there or even that they would be all rosy if they had a democracy. I really do recommend that book by the way, it wasn't a throw away comment or an attempt at patronising you, I found it very interesting and an insightful view into how Mubarak ran the country. It only scratched the surface though. Democracy is an inherently better system because you work to keep yourself in the position. The way to do this is by pleasing the populace. So you make sure you hire the right people. You don't hire the education minister because he hired thugs to come into his university and attack student protesters. I believe he only got that job as well because of his parents. You don't reject your nobel prize winning chemist who wants to build the Egyptian Silicon valley because he is more popular than you. You don't force a world-renowned Egyptian engineer who figures out how to build low cost housing for the poor at a very affordable price and a third of what they are currently paying out of the country. Again, no prizes for guessing where that extra money goes. And you don't waste billions of dollars (or tens of billions of Egyptian pounds) trying to expand farmland in the Southern desert in what most experts consider to be a monumental waste of money.

Mubarak has proved himself incapable or unwilling to address a single one of Egypt's social issues. If you do this in a democracy, someone else is given a go. In a dictatorship, you simply torture or kill the people who tell you

Indeed it has. What a coincidence that brutal dictators who spend as much time terrorising their own populations as they do trying to advance the country have overseen stagnation in their countries.

That was part of his popularity. As was the much stronger domestic situation. Peoples' first priority when voting is almost always domestic issues. Its not hard to understand that someone would be more willing to vote for a leader who is always starting and losing wars, as long as they live in a reasonable state than for someone who has maintained peace for 30 years but allows you to live in a shack you made yourself where you have no electricity, sewage and your drinking water is mixed in with your own excrement. Not to mention there was only one radio channel in Nasser's time.

Of course they wouldn't be worried about it unless it spills over the border but I would say that the comments from Israeli politicians and what I've read in Israeli media indicates to me that Israelis are not exactly happy with the Egyptian's attempt at democracy. I wasn't really referring to you to be honest, just the general trend to dismiss the Arabs again as not being ready for democracy as soon as there is any hitch in their attempts to achieve it.
 
Egyptians may not be the biggest fans of Israel, despise what they have done to the Palestinians, despise Mubarak for what he's done to the Gazans.

Do they also despise the treatment of the Gazans while the GS was still under Egyptian rule?

They may want the 79 treaty revised or even cancelled.

You mean, Egyptians want Sinai to be handed back to Israel?

Very few actually want war though, they appreciate the trouncing that Egypt would receive in a war. Most importantly, the army, which will maintain huge power whoever wins, fills its pockets on $1.3 billion/year for keeping Israel's southern border quiet. I would assume they're not going to just give that up. Any attempt to threaten that from a civilian politician wouldn't end too well for them...

You are consistent with the "compliance" sentiments. You go on arguing about the Egyptians' political maturity while at the same time acknowledge their wish to cancel peace treaties. Keeping your border quiet so your territiry isn't used for attacking a neighbouring country is also part of that responsibilty and not a treacherous policy.


A lot of Egyptians are tetchy about what the Bedouins and other groups are doing to Egypt in the sinai. They're worried about the effect they are having on tourism and the potential effect on Egypt's sovereignty over the sinai if the Israelis get upset. ...

hmmm....so perhaps there's a point is making sure the Egyptian army is able to control its territory. Well that depends on the will, and Mubarak wasn't consistent enough most Israelis would argue.


I am aware that Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood. However, they renounced violence in the 70s, whereas Hamas obviously continue to utilise terror on both their own population and the Israeli one. .


Muslim Brotherhood: Hamas is our role model


Of course they wouldn't be worried about it unless it spills over the border but I would say that the comments from Israeli politicians and what I've read in Israeli media indicates to me that Israelis are not exactly happy with the Egyptian's attempt at democracy. I wasn't really referring to you to be honest, just the general trend to dismiss the Arabs again as not being ready for democracy as soon as there is any hitch in their attempts to achieve it.

I hope you are mistaking the worries about a hostile neighbouring Egypt with real resentment at a political change in Egypt. Why would I want Egyptians to live under a corrupt dictator?As long as Egypt stand up to its international and bilateral obligations I wish nothing but the best to all Egyptians. However, judging by the democratic violent incident at the Israeli embassy I think we have a very good reason to woory about events across the border.
 
Do they also despise the treatment of the Gazans while the GS was still under Egyptian rule?



You mean, Egyptians want Sinai to be handed back to Israel?



You are consistent with the "compliance" sentiments. You go on arguing about the Egyptians' political maturity while at the same time acknowledge their wish to cancel peace treaties. Keeping your border quiet so your territiry isn't used for attacking a neighbouring country is also part of that responsibilty and not a treacherous policy.




hmmm....so perhaps there's a point is making sure the Egyptian army is able to control its territory. Well that depends on the will, and Mubarak wasn't consistent enough most Israelis would argue.





Muslim Brotherhood: Hamas is our role model




I hope you are mistaking the worries about a hostile neighbouring Egypt with real resentment at a political change in Egypt. Why would I want Egyptians to live under a corrupt dictator?As long as Egypt stand up to its international and bilateral obligations I wish nothing but the best to all Egyptians. However, judging by the democratic violent incident at the Israeli embassy I think we have a very good reason to woory about events across the border.

Some do. All a lot of Arabs want now is for Palestinians to live in dignity in their home. I've seen a lot of Egyptians get just as angry with Mubarak over Gaza as with Israel.

Cancelling or revising the peace treaty does not mean they want a return of war. For one thing, they'd be trounced by the Israeli armed forces and the sinai would be reoccupied with little time for the Egyptians to even do anything. Secondly, they don't want Egyptian blood spilt again for no reason.

Wanting a better deal for Palestinians is not political immaturity. Not starting war with Israel is not treacherous policy, it is common sense. I am always a proponent of peace. The blockade of Gaza, especially when it is so against the wishes of the population, is treacherous.

I agree with that. The Egyptian army needs to be able to deploy its power in the sinai to secure it from kidnappings, attacks and illegal smuggling. It is my understanding that Israel has already given permission for Egypt to deploy more units there. Seems the army is too busy playing political games in Cairo to bother about the sinai at the moment though.

'Our role model in reconciliation with Fatah and prisoner exchange?' Actions speak louder than words and the MB haven't used violence for decades. I'm not going to defend them anymore anyway, I'm an ultra-secularist who believes that no religion should get involved in the running of any country. I have almost as much contempt for the MB as for the old regime and almost as much for Mursi as for Shafiq.

That was obviously a despicable event, one I hope is never repeated. Embassy staff should never be targeted at all. Didn't it come after 5 Egyptian border guards were killed though? As long as both sides refrain from shooting each others' soldiers or citizens, the cold, uneasy peace will likely contiinue.

Seems like the SCAF is continuing its coup now with today's announcements. Revolution 2.0 is needed, this time to remove the regime and not just the figurehead.
 
Today in Bab Srijeh, Al-Ezzeh square a protest, you can see me entering the protest at 2:26 I'm the guy wearing blue pants and a white t-shirt, anyway Security forces came and we had to leave the square after two minutes.
 
So my friend got out of jail today:D... he's been arrested for 4 weeks and thank god now he's out still didn't see him though, he only called me to tell me he is out and he is okay.
 
Al-Insha'at district in Homs now after the shelling, also shows the wall the regime built between Al-Insha'at and Baba Amr!
 
One of my friends from university is Syrian and he's been organising protest events all year; after exams, he flew back into Syria to 'report' - which I assume means he's going to try and help the rebels somehow. He's very passionate about the whole thing and I respect that, but I'm also very worried that he might not come back to university at the end of the summer.

Fingers crossed.
 
AFP0196230-01-08754647_wa.jpg
AFP0196328-01-08754780_wa.jpg
MCT324941_001747188_a.jpg
 
Turkey could technically try to use the shot down plane as an excuse for a NATO article 5 action.
 
I wouldn't expect much out of it. The coalition that were involved with Libya are all dealing with their own domestic issues right now. Obama is locked in a tight election campaign and won't want to agitate the electorate with another military campaign. Sarkozy is gone and most European leaders are dealing with financial issues. That wouldn't preclude Turkey from doing something, since Erdogan seems a bit of a maverick.
 
BBC Breaking News ‏@BBCBreaking
Senior Syrian military figures and soldiers defect to Turkey, state-run Turkish news agency says. Details soon
 
So done with my college today, my college is in Damascus suburbs around an hour drive so today while I was going there in the bus at 6:30 a.m more than 200 tanks were on the highway to Homs(the same highway that we cross to go to my college) I still don't know where they were going, plus two tanks and around 20 soldiers were outside Yabroud a city on the way to my college.
 
A real story of a friend of mine:
I have a christian friend who I talk to everyday(he is not in Syria) but his family is and in HOMS... he told me his family stayed at their home ever since the revolution started up until a Bomb broke their house roof and destroyed their home to the point where they couldn't live in it anymore...

But whats interesting he told me his family were getting basic supplies from the Free Syrian Army almost everyday and they always ask if they need anymore help ...they were very kind to them... and then they moved to some neighbor house in the area then they movie to a relative house in another city outside Homs.
 
report about the massacre in Zamalka (10 KM from Damascus city center) :
in 30-6-2012 in the morning, there where unusual movements from the security forces on the check points, in the middle of the day the security forces spread inside Zamalka area and shoot people in the street,Abd Alhadi Alhalabi died because of the shooting, then the funeral for Abd Alhadi started in the evening from Altobah mosque, which is a protest usual starting point in Zamalka, after 5 minutes a car bomb were parked near the mosque exploded in the middle of the funeral, at least 75 person has been documented dead, over 150 injured has been listed, some of them in critical situation, most of hospitals beside Zamalka were full.

This report was made by several friends of mine activist on the ground.
 
Updated Numbers(they aren't humans they are numbers now!!):
Number of Martyrs: 17,830
Of them: 1,344 Children 1,290 Women 679 under torture
The Approximate Number of Wounded: above 50,300
Arrested: over 212,000 detainees (including those detained and discharged)
the approximate number of missing: above 65,000.
the registered refugee population outside Syria: 80,400
the number of refugees registered third parties: above 110,000.
 
One of the biggest generals in the army has defected from the army today, he is called Manaf Tlas he is one of the most important people in the current regime and he is now with the rebels, still don't like him though.. Here's a picture of him with Bashar Al-Assad and another with Hafez Al-Assad:
479917_450194258337866_1921300875_n.jpg
 
One of the biggest generals in the army has defected from the army today, he is called Manaf Tlas he is one of the most important people in the current regime and he is now with the rebels, still don't like him though.. Here's a picture of him with Bashar Al-Assad and another with Hafez Al-Assad:
479917_450194258337866_1921300875_n.jpg

He's the son of Mustafa Tlas, isn't he? Must have made dad really proud.

Defections aside, this might highlight the magnitude of the task the Syrian people are facing:

Syria Running for the U.N. Human Rights Council:eek:
 
Couple of hundred dead dead in the Sunni village of Tremseh in Hama province.

The opposition however are claiming more than 300 dead.