I don't see how Arsenal are relevant in this discussion, to be honest.
Liverpool sign Chelsea striker Daniel Sturridge on long-term deal
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
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I don't see how Arsenal are relevant in this discussion, to be honest.
He's 4th choice now. Hernandez was a year ago. If Welbeck goes on a similar hot run he could be starting instead. But he's also the youngest and has time and versatility on his side.
If you watched him for England this summer you shouldnt have any doubts about how good he is as he was one of our top 5 players. He currently has over a 1 in 3 goalscoring record for England which is once again good for a young forward.
As a default position a lot of posters will down play a Liverpool signing.
To be fair it has been correct for a while to take up this default position. Eg Carroll,Downing,Henderson,Joe Cole,Allen etc.
To illustrate that being fourth choice for Utd doesn't mean you are destined for a mid table team, unless you consider Arsenal a midtable team?
One in three at international level isn't ideal when half the games are against poor sides.
Hernandez is on another planet to Welbeck as far as I can tell. Brilliant movement, wonderful finisher and a great work rate. You can't say the same of Welbeck.
You're using the 4th choice part as some kind of insult.
Look who he's against for rucks sake. VP, Rooney and currently behind Hernandez but that can change.
I'd take Welbeck over all your strikers. Giroud, and then basically 2 wide strikers who are a different prospect in the middle?
Just because Walcott ripped up a Newcastle team who were knackered, whereas Arsenal had their rest on boxing day, doesn't suddenly make him a terrific striker.
Walcott excelled for England in the last euros, so don't use the 4th choice argument as if he's not a top player.
Sturridge better than Welbeck?
Welbeck's intelligence means he will always be a better player than Sturridge, not to mention the fact that he's 1yr younger than him.
It's clear that Ferguson still rates Welbeck and that's why gave him a new contract with much improved terms this season.
Also the point about signing RVP kills Welbecks chances of ever getting a first team chance is amazingly retarded. But seeing the poster who said it, I'm not surprised.
Welbeck's intelligence means he will always be a better player than Sturridge, not to mention the fact that he's 1yr younger than him.
It's clear that Ferguson still rates Welbeck and that's why gave him a new contract with much improved terms this season.
Also the point about signing RVP kills Welbecks chances of ever getting a first team chance is amazingly retarded. But seeing the poster who said it, I'm not surprised.
Oh, I get you.
You're right - it doesn't necessarily lead to mediocrity, but it's just interesting that he's gone backwards in the order. I'm purely speculating here, but I've always suspected that when Ferguson spoke about never losing the league on goal difference again, this might mean that Welbeck would get less time on the pitch. He's just not near the level of the other three.
So then you look at whether he'll leave United or not. Let's say he does - where does he go? The highest team that would buy him is probably Everton in 6th, which is the beginning of mid-table.
I believe before last season Sturridge looked the more promising player than Welbeck, and was developing faster. However, last season Welbeck really was fantastic at times - showed his ability to play as a target man, dribbling with the ball from deeper positions, playing out wide, his link-up play was good, and he scored goals, albeit in spells.
If and when Welbeck finds consistent scoring form he'll be a truly top class striker, whereas I don't think Sturridge has showed that kind of ability yet, only potential.
If and when Welbeck finds consistent scoring form he'll be a truly top class striker, whereas I don't think Sturridge has showed that kind of ability yet, only potential.
Welbeck has great workrate and his movement is very good outside the box for interplay and buildup. He's also very underrated with his linkup play around the edge of the box. Its inside the box that Hernandez is a killer, not so much outside of it where Welbeck has the edge on him.
Hernandez will get all the plaudits for his movement because it ends in goal after goal. But that doesnt mean Welbeck isnt a very intelligent mover himself. He just doesnt yet have the killer sharp movement in the box that Rooney, Van Persie and Hernandez have shown. He's good at it and thats where his goals came from last season, mostly getting on the end of things in the box, but those strikers have some of the best box movement in the world. Welbeck doesnt.
Welbeck has different strengths. His touch and ability outside the box is hi real strength. Movement is top class too. It was the inclusion of him and Cleverley at the start of last season that gave us a new dynamism.
Hernandez gets more notice as he's always the one tucking the goals in.
RVP is 29, and doesn't rely on pace. It's pretty far fetched to suggest that Welbeck is ever going to start regularly for United while him, Rooney and Hernandez are all at the club. This is based on the evidence of this season.
Almost every post on this page is about Welbeck. FFS!
It was probably more about swapping our luxury big money striker Berbatov, for another big money striker in Van Persie.
In doing that of course Welbeck was going to get less games
On the evidence of last season even United fans on here were doubting Hernandez... Sad but true. Point is that one season isnt everything. Welbeck was good last season but he does need to add more goals to his game. He's shown he can do it in streaks both at the tail end of his Sunderland loan and at United last season, but he needs to get the consistancy to become the genuine article.
Welbeck's movement is not top class. His touch isn't either. Have you ever considered that the reason Hernandez tucks the goals in is because his movement is excellent and he gets into the positions to score them?
Ferguson wouldn't have given him a big contract if he doesn't think that he's going to make it.
I don't agree with you at all.
I truly think that Chelsea, Arsenal and Spurs would take on Welbeck given the opportunity. None of those teams have great striking options and whilst he may not be first choice at any of them, he'd certainly get games and would provide a fantastic goal threat.
Also, there's no rush whatsoever with Welbeck, he's developing well and he'll turn out to be a top striker on a world scale, in my opinion. Just because he's not ahead of RVP, Rooney and Chicharito in the pecking order currently doesn't mean Fergie has forgotten about him - players are picked on form, and those players are in form, unfortunately for Welbeck.
I found the Hernandez bashing last season bizarre given everyone had seen the damage he could do. That top level Hernandez has shown is higher than anything I've seen from Welbeck.
That said, in order to get the thread back on track, I'd probably have Welbeck over Sturridge.
You don't think he's looking to tie him down to make sure he doesn't leave on the cheap?
And when do you think he's going to make it? Next season? The season after?
I wouldn't say Rooney or RVP are 'on form.' They're just absolutely class players who are playing to somewhere near their capacity. They're not playing above themselves. An RVP off form is still chosen ahead of Welbeck, as is Rooney.
And there's absolutely no way Chelsea or Arsenal would take him on. I think that's rose-tinted glasses. Spurs is an outside chance, but slightly more realistic.
Yes top level Hernandez has shown more than Welbeck. But at Welbeck's age Hernandez was still in Mexico just coming over to United and you hadnt even heard of him then. So we'll see what Welbeck can do when given the chance
He wouldn't have given him a 4 fold increase if he wanted to extend the contract just to make sure he doesn't leave on cheap.
Think the fact being they spent £50m on Torres worked against DS at times. The guy has great potential and is a very good signing for Liverpool as he is better than all but Suarez and will score goals a plenty.
Why not?
Arsenal have Gervinho, Podolski, Giroud and Chamakh and Welbeck is better than 2, arguably 3, of those players.
Chelsea might not take him now they've signed Demba Ba, but beyond that they had a misfiring Torres, and virtually no other true strikers. Chelsea also tried to sign Drogba back on loan - I'm convinced they would have taken on Welbeck before getting Ba.
Why do you believe either of those clubs, or Spurs, all in need of a good striker wouldn't take up the chance of a young, English striker who's shown fantastic ability and potential in his career so far, and also has decent Premier League experience? No brainer for me.
You can't be serious? Im not saying he'd start every week but he'd easily make it into both squads. You seriously underrate Welbeck. Id bet Wenger would take him without a second thought if he got offered the chance.
Welbeck was one of the players that got a lot of plaudits from the media after the Euro's
As for the rest of what you've said about Welbeck in this thread, hilarious. If you don't remember, last season, Welbeck was first choice with Rooney, while Hernandez was the one on the bench, and being talked about as 4th choice, and not needed. Thats the thing with young players, it swings in roundabouts.
If you can't see Welbeck obvious quality, then you don't know much about football tbh. Yes, he has to work on his finishing, but he's got plenty of time on his side. People forget that this is only his second season in the United team ffs. But no, lets write him off already. Absolute nonsense.
Welbeck will go on to be a fantastic player for United, and make a lot of people look very very silly along the way.
Liverpool desperately needed another striker, Sturridge needed to play and Chelsea weren't interested in keeping him. Good deal for all parties. I think Sturridge is a pretty good player actually, expect him to do well there.
Gervinho, Chamakh, Walcott, Arshavin
Chelsea have just signed Moses, and he's getting plenty of playing time, so to suggest they wouldnt take Welbeck is, quite frankly, laughable.
Don't like this transfer at all, it has a dangerous whiff of competence.
Decent signing, but then again I thought Sahin would be a smart acquisition for the dippers and look how that turned out. With regular football, Sturridge could be a big player for Liverpool... Sturridge, Suarez, Sterling... Not a bad front line.
2 against San Marino and 2 in two frindly games, it's not even close to being impressive. He has just started his international career and he has to do much more for me before I can call his Englad career good.
Good signing for them, I think. They aren't going to attract the very best anymore, and Sturridge has a right feel to him.
Welbeck was one of the players that got a lot of plaudits from the media after the Euro's
As for the rest of what you've said about Welbeck in this thread, hilarious. If you don't remember, last season, Welbeck was first choice with Rooney, while Hernandez was the one on the bench, and being talked about as 4th choice, and not needed. Thats the thing with young players, it swings in roundabouts.
If you can't see Welbeck obvious quality, then you don't know much about football tbh. Yes, he has to work on his finishing, but he's got plenty of time on his side. People forget that this is only his second season in the United team ffs. But no, lets write him off already. Absolute nonsense.
Welbeck will go on to be a fantastic player for United, and make a lot of people look very very silly along the way.
I don't think so. He is to clumsy and lack body control, it let's him down especially when he gets stressed. I hoped age and physical development would sort it out, but not this far.
If that is sorted, I think he will become great as you say.
Good signing. Sturridge has potential, what he needs is games and he'l get That at Pool. Will be interesting to See how it pans out.
Also, take the Welbeck discussion to his thread people. Majority of the posts are about him
Also, take the Welbeck discussion to his thread people. Majority of the posts are about him
I think he could be a good signing for them. He's a good talent, a good scorer. Obviously has plenty to learn but he's done brilliantly on loan to Bolton and had a good start at Chelsea last season. Obviously things have gone downhill, but there's good potential there and he'll get games which will give him a chance.
Another who didnt see the euros then. His international career has been good so far for a young player as I said.
I don't like Sturridge's playing style but I think he's a decent signing for Liverpool, certainly when compared with Borini.
He's somewhat proven at Bolton and Chelsea that, given a run of games, he'll score goals.
Only time will tell.
He's somewhat proven at Bolton and Chelsea that, given a run of games, he'll score goals.
Only time will tell.
Found his level.
As an aside, do you know of a decent site for shot totals, please? I'm not sure how reliable the data on soccernet is & it's usually incomplete.
I think it's easy to underestimate the importance of goals & how difficult it is to score them. Not to continue to flood this thread with Welbeck discussion (sorry duffer), while I completely agree that Welbeck's much better with the ball, according to the data provided by soccernet (I looked at Premier League games only, for ease of comparison), looking past that one season, Sturridge isn't significantly more wasteful with his shooting than Welbeck. If anything, the opposite is true:
Sturridge
47 (49) appearances
26 goals
211 shots
8.1 shots to goal
Welbeck
53 (25) appearances
17 goals
167 shots
9.8 shots to goal
I think Sturridge has shown a goalscoring instinct that can be worth a lot. He takes a lot of shots, but not with significantly less success than other players. Take Jermain Defoe, who is quite a good comparison I think of the type of player Sturridge could develop into should he fulfill his potential:
Defoe
230 (88) appearances
112 goals*
859 shots
7.7 shots to goal
*there's no shot data for Defoe's 10 premier league goals for West Ham in 01/02, so I've excluded them.
In terms of their goalscoring numbers, Sturridge & Welbeck haven't had complete backing in recent seasons as they're competing for spots up front at the very top level. I do disagree that Welbeck has excelled up top at every level. He needs to score more goals to remain as a striker & his wide play's not nearly consistently good enough to be a nailed down starter there at the highest level. Back to Sturridge, compare his figures to Fernando Torres' since the 2010/11 season:
Torres since 2010/11
70 (19) appearances
23 goals
224 shots
9.7 shots to goal
I find it hard to believe that this current Torres offers much more than Sturridge in his all round play - moves constantly break down with him. I think Sturridge is likely justified in feeling aggrieved at not getting a fair chance in the team, particularly with the amount of creativity they have this season. As sure as I am that Borini will eventually prove his worth at Liverpool, I think Sturridge has a decent chance of becoming a very good striker, too.
I think he'll start with a flurry and then his brain issues will flare up and Liverpool fans will grow frustrated at him and question why they pissed away £12M.
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