So you would actually prefer Jose to Klopp right now because he won the capital one cup and the Europa league? Seriously? Wow. The same United fans that wouldn't want Klopp or think he is subpar in comparison to Mourinho would take Poch to come in right now (Poch who hasn't won diddly squat). Ok then.
Liverpool 2018/19
- Thread starter Adisa
- Start date
- Status
Have I said that I want Poch? Don't want either of them.
I'd take Klopp as DoF as he's good recruiter and can follow some ideology, whilst also get pretty good players on value deals, but Jose is the better tactician out of the two and has won much more than him.
Oh, I understand now... so presumably you would say that Jose and pep are equally as successful as each other during their Manchester stints so far?
I don't think you do
Pep is the most successful one obviously along with Conte, then Mourinho, then Klopp in the last two seasons.
1 title and FA cup > 1 title and LC > EL, LC > feck all.
If you think Klopp is just a 'good recruiter' than I don't know what to say
he's a hell of a lot more than that. Hypothetically, if Mourinho got the boot who would you want to replace him? I mean it's not the thread for it but you said you wouldn't want Poch so I'm just curious.I don't think you do
Pep is the most successful one obviously along with Conte, then Mourinho, then Klopp in the last two seasons.
1 title and FA cup > 1 title and LC > EL, LC > feck all.
Again, just to clarify...
You actually think conte was more successful than pep ??
If you think Klopp is just a 'good recruiter' than I don't know what to say
Boy, you guys really over analyze every word
I want United to hire a proven manager who is a winner and can well on consistent basis in the league, as well as being a good motivator and bunch of other things(not saying Klopp doesn't possess those qualities). If you want a name I've mentioned it in the thread as well - Cholo.
I don't think Klopp would do a better job at United than Jose if he took what Jose inherited 2 years ago.
Over the last 2 years? It's pretty tight, but I'll take a title and FA cup over a title and League cup if that's what you are asking.
How do you measure success yourself? Playing nice football or trophies? If the former is priority for you we can agree to disagree then. I'll always take the trophies as a measuring stick.
I think a manager is ultimately judged on how he improves the club he is at, not ultimately by the trophies he wins.
Yes clearly trophies are one way of quantifiably “measuring” success but you’d have to be incredibly naive to think they’re the only thing that success is measured on. Not even football clubs measure success solely on trophies, otherwise conte and Ranieri wouldn’t have been sacked the season after they won the league title.
The reason why it’s silly to only judge success on trophies is because there’s a finite number of trophies to win, and not every club is in a position to win.
Take Burnley as a perfect example. You won’t find anyone who knows anything about football who wouldn’t say Dyche was successful last season. He took a team pipped for relegation and they finished 8th.
The fact they didn’t win anything is irrelevant because they weren’t in a position to win anything.
Klopp imo has done the same thing for the first couple of years at Liverpool, his aim has been to improve Liverpool and get them in a position where they can realistically challenge for the league title. Which I would say they are now at... id suggest he’s been very successful at Liverpool so far, because he’s achieved his and his clubs aims.
Having only finite number of trophies is exactly the reason why managers should be rated better when they actually win one - not come close.
You can't realistically compare Burnley to Pool or United. That club has nothing to do with ambition of the latter two. I don't think it's naive to quantify the success with what a manager wins at the time he's there. The time of building a dynasty is long gone.
It takes as soon as 6-7 months to be in a champions position to awful football and humiliating results (Moyes).
Nowadays it's really fast transition between who challenges for the title and who doesn't. Especially at Premiership when you have clubs spending huge amount on players like City, us, Pool, Chelsea and the likes.
The position you mention Liverpool at is worth 380m pounds. That's how much Klopp spent so far and yes it's more than what Jose spent so far. So don't pretend it's different to what City and Pep were doing to get into the position they were last season.
How have Liverpool been in a position to realistically challenge for the title in the last 2 and a half seasons that you can call this a success? They finished 8th, 4th and 4th?
They've been off the pace 21, 17 and 25 points off the top spot in those three seasons. Hardly challenging position is it?
Touched on this sort of thing before. Klopp's done very well to get Liverpool back in the conversation again. You only have to go back 5 or so years and they're basically a mid-table team. They weren't anywhere near United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, City or Spurs until a couple of seasons ago.
However, comparing Liverpool to Burnley is pointless. Burnley aren't expected to win anything. Liverpool are. There's a fundamental difference between the two clubs. Success for Liverpool is challenging for and winning silverware. Success for Burnley is not measured in the same way, and survival in the Premier League would be seen as a success for them, never mind qualifying for Europe.
I agree to an extent that success can not only be measured in trophies, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a Liverpool fan that doesn't think they're still in the ascension. The point is fast approaching though where they will have to win something of significance to make that next step under Klopp, attractive football or not. It's the main criticism aimed at Spurs under Poch, was the same criticism aimed at Wenger's Arsenal, and is already a criticism being aimed at Mourinho (alongside criticisms of the style of football).
Klopp getting Liverpool into regular top 4 contenders, perhaps occasional title contenders, and maybe reaching a cup final every few seasons, is obviously an improvement from the 7th-8th placed finishes and maybe a Europa League appearance they had before he got there. But if in five years Liverpool under Klopp are without a trophy, where does he stand then? What happens if he leaves, and they suddenly plummet back to 6th/7th in the table? There's no lasting legacy and no silverware to show for anything.
I wasn't comparing the situation at Burnley to Liverpool, like you said: they're completely different clubs with different aims, and that was my exact point...
I was making the point that only using trophies as a yardstick for success is subjective because clubs are aiming for different things at different points in their history.
Which was my point with Klopp and Liverpool.. What I actually said and my point was that when Klopp arrived, I think we can all agree his aim was not to try and win the title with Liverpool straight away.
I'm guessing but I'm almost certain his aim was to get Liverpool into a position where they can seriously challenge for the league within a couple years.
Now I think Klopp has definitely succeeded so far in his aim. Were at the point where almost every pundit in English football is tipping them to challenge City. They've gotten rid of a lot of the dead wood, they've got arguably one of the best front 3 in the league (not the best in my opinion) they've built a decent spine in VVD Allison and Keita...
I now think that Liverpool's aims will change after this season. Now Klopp has built it, his idea of success will now change to winning trophies.
So my point was not that Liverpool are like Burnley, my point was that the idea of "success" is subjective and ever changing.
You're definitely right, if he doesn't win anything in the next couple of years or if he leaves and they plummet, you're absolutely right he has nothing to show if he hasn't won trophies.. and I agree whole heartedly.
I hope he doesn't win trophies, any.... but we'll just have to wait and see
Klopp has spend a lot of money, but only because he lost key players which in turn enables him to spend. Its not like what United and City are doint which is spending WITHOUT losing key players. What Klopp is doing is impressive. He's taken a poor squad in 2 and a half seasons from being 6th best give or take to around 2nd or 3rd.
How anybody can say he is not a winner is laughable. He's always had the underdog teams and built them into competitive. Those of you who are saying Mourinho is doing a better job need to wake up and get realistic and take a neutral view. 2-3 seasons ago United were a much bigger and we'll driven club than Liverpool and they still are. Klopp has made Liverpool relevant again. 28 years without a league title has made most of us fans content with seeing improvement not a medal. We know the competition is harder than ever.
How anybody can say he is not a winner is laughable. He's always had the underdog teams and built them into competitive. Those of you who are saying Mourinho is doing a better job need to wake up and get realistic and take a neutral view. 2-3 seasons ago United were a much bigger and we'll driven club than Liverpool and they still are. Klopp has made Liverpool relevant again. 28 years without a league title has made most of us fans content with seeing improvement not a medal. We know the competition is harder than ever.
Not yet he hasn't.
What on earth do you need to do to be relevant then?
Spurs are relevant in my book top 5 in England is relevant. Liverpool hasn't been relevant for years. But he's lifted them to potential challengers.
Yes he has. We haven't won jack shit with Klopp, but we were in the CL final a few months ago. And a large majority, also among your fellow United fans, believe that Liverpool are up there as the favourites among the rest this season. A good number believes we should be challenging City for the league. I'd say that makes us relevant. Not winners, or favourites to win, but certainly relevant.
Of course Klopp ultimately needs to win trophies. But Liverpool fans have learned to be patient. We know, like all of you know too, that we are lucky to have him. All fans are behind him, so he has a lot of leeway from us.
He has done a terrific job until now, but like I said, he ultimately needs to win some trophies with us. It doesn't have to be this season, but it has to come at some point.
Last edited:
If Mourinho is in his 3rd season, how is Klopp still in his second? He arrived a season before Jose in OCTOBER!!! Have you lost track of time in these 28 years? Also pool hasn't finished 2nd or 3rd yet under Klopp. Rodgers finished 2nd with Liverpool not long ago.
Take your rose tinted glasses off.
Nearly every football pundit in this country thinks they're the team who will give city a fight this season.
He's done a great job so far. I don't know how anyone can think otherwise. Particularly annoying as they could easily have slipped into almost total midtable obscurity if this managerial era had gone badly.
Now it changes again though, everybody seems agreed on that at least. 2-3 seasons to win a) something b) preferably the League or CL. All the substantial gains have now been made, it is unlikely that the team will get any better than it is going to be now. There is no Moreno to replace, the GK is allegedly better than de Gea / a tactical mastermind & one of the World's best defenders is looking like having to sit on the bench as back-up.
Now it can only go wrong.
Sometime in the next 2-3 seasons something is much more likely to significantly weaken this LFC team than improve it. Barca & Madrid are likely to have a bit of a 'Galactico Replacement Programme' for example. Salah is very likely to be on their shopping list. Mane might leave in sympathy, James Milner can't go on forever. Things will change anyway, that's for sure.
On the other hand, they could get £ 300 M for Salah & then find Ben Woodburn is even better & transform the fat little cock-knocker Shaqiri into a Ballon 'd'or contender to net £ 200 M more but that has to be considered less likely one hopes.
I liked Roy Hodgson I did. He should have got a lot longer.
Now it changes again though, everybody seems agreed on that at least. 2-3 seasons to win a) something b) preferably the League or CL. All the substantial gains have now been made, it is unlikely that the team will get any better than it is going to be now. There is no Moreno to replace, the GK is allegedly better than de Gea / a tactical mastermind & one of the World's best defenders is looking like having to sit on the bench as back-up.
Now it can only go wrong.
Sometime in the next 2-3 seasons something is much more likely to significantly weaken this LFC team than improve it. Barca & Madrid are likely to have a bit of a 'Galactico Replacement Programme' for example. Salah is very likely to be on their shopping list. Mane might leave in sympathy, James Milner can't go on forever. Things will change anyway, that's for sure.
On the other hand, they could get £ 300 M for Salah & then find Ben Woodburn is even better & transform the fat little cock-knocker Shaqiri into a Ballon 'd'or contender to net £ 200 M more but that has to be considered less likely one hopes.
I liked Roy Hodgson I did. He should have got a lot longer.
And they've got the new stand built.
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...blog/2013/may/06/anfield-liverpool-david-conn
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...blog/2013/may/06/anfield-liverpool-david-conn
I was kidding but to answer your question in the 1990s like football did.
He has said 2 and half there to be fair.
You have, however, made the mistake of counting his first season in charge, which for a lot of people seems not to count, but despite it not counting, the two cup finals they got to do count.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...iled-world-record-2bn-takeover-Liverpool.html
If this is true, and maybe Liverpool's owners are holding out for me...
We might as well just pack everything and go home. City and Liverpool at the top and we are getting noodle sponsorships. Worst Nightmare.
Can someone Arab just bid 3billion dollars for Man utd ffs. It could be a Qatari, and be like a competition with Emirati owners of City (if you don't know the politics, they don't like each other right now)
Have you read the article?
He’s nowhere near as wealthy as Mansour. So it would have been the same as they are now where they spending £70m plus on goalkeepers and defenders.
Or worse, Mansour's cousin making sure he pissed Klopp off enough so he'd leave leaving us wondering what's next. Best £2bn Mansour will have spent keeping City where they are post itchy feet Pep.
Surely if Liverpool are “in the conversation” as the closest likely challengers to City, after not being part of that conversation for years, they are now relevant again.
Why do you feel they remain irrelevant?
Klopp has had 2 full seasons at Liverpool, plus the half season before Mourinho came. This season has hardly just begun. Mourinho and Klopp are both currently in their third full seasons, but they have both completed only two full seasons with their respective clubs.
I can’t see where the poster said that Klopp is in his second season. Maybe read the post again.
Yeah, he has. The media love him and give Liverpool praise week in and week out. This forum is loaded with Liverpool threads. united supporters are giving us credit for our moves in the past year for christ sake. Salah is becoming an international star. We just came off an appearance in the CL final and also were playing the best football in Europe leading up to that match.
Oh,we be relevant. We be relevant.
Try and keep up.
We all know football didn't exist before the European Cup and League were re-named in the early 90's.
You don't usually get to play FC Zurich, Dinamo Bucharest or even Panathinakos (1985) in the semi final now though innit?
And I know there are sometimes smaller teams who might make the Group Stage but they're probably slightly better than teams like Crusaders, Dundalk & Oulu Palloseura of somewhere or other who must have caused a shock with their 1-1 home draw & then grabbing a priceless away goal at Anfield. Shame they conceded just the 10 (TEN) at the other end, really. (Down to SEVEN the next year though,)
Far fewer Big Fish in the pond in them days. And you get the money to sustain the thing all to yourself, more or less.
(has this argument ever been done before btw?)
And I know there are sometimes smaller teams who might make the Group Stage but they're probably slightly better than teams like Crusaders, Dundalk & Oulu Palloseura of somewhere or other who must have caused a shock with their 1-1 home draw & then grabbing a priceless away goal at Anfield. Shame they conceded just the 10 (TEN) at the other end, really. (Down to SEVEN the next year though,
)Far fewer Big Fish in the pond in them days. And you get the money to sustain the thing all to yourself, more or less.
(has this argument ever been done before btw?)
Last edited:
Didn't Roy Hodgson once manage Zurich?
Quality side back in the day
Quality side back in the day
I mean, in 1983 beating Dundalk & HJK Helsinki got you into the quarter finals - which was tricky compared to who Dynamo Kiev nearly got to play in the last 16. Nentori Tirana could have been a proper handful if they'd actually bothered to turn up, .
.Same as every year then. Liverpool always start the season as one of the favourites.
If you're still up there in January 2020, having run it close this season too, then youll be relevant. Until then its just the usual Liverpool hype machine and the odd fluke season.
Liverpool is in an excellent position right now, on and off the pitch. We were run so poorly, especially by the last bunch of cowboys, that we nearly went bust. They were using the club to pay off its own purchase, and we weren't very far away from going pop. Now, they've taken their 280m investment 7 or 8 years ago and now have a £2bn asset and a team that's gone from bumbling around on its arse with the occasional glimpse of resurgence - but with a bare bones squad always keeping us down - to a very good squad, a financially successful enterprise, and potential investment on the horizon. There's a lot to be happy about.
If people don't see the progress, or think where we are now is the same as every other season, then I guess there's going to be no convincing you. Klopp's objective has to be gradual improvement. If that's the case, we will start winning major honours again; we've been close, but we need to improve to get across the line. We know we need to be better, we also know we're not the best - City are. We need to overachieve to beat them. We know that United, Spurs, Chelsea, and maybe a couple of others are excellent teams who we must improve to be clearly better than. We're trying to do that, right through the club. I'm very proud of the efforts made to put us back on our perch. It's not the same environment as it used to be. It's almost a different sport. All that can be done is work hard, put the money in, and back a quality manager. That's what we're doing. If people don't want to credit that... so be it.
If people don't see the progress, or think where we are now is the same as every other season, then I guess there's going to be no convincing you. Klopp's objective has to be gradual improvement. If that's the case, we will start winning major honours again; we've been close, but we need to improve to get across the line. We know we need to be better, we also know we're not the best - City are. We need to overachieve to beat them. We know that United, Spurs, Chelsea, and maybe a couple of others are excellent teams who we must improve to be clearly better than. We're trying to do that, right through the club. I'm very proud of the efforts made to put us back on our perch. It's not the same environment as it used to be. It's almost a different sport. All that can be done is work hard, put the money in, and back a quality manager. That's what we're doing. If people don't want to credit that... so be it.
I mean, in 1983 beating Dundalk & HJK Helsinki got you into the quarter finals - which was tricky compared to who Dynamo Kiev nearly got to play in the last 16. Nentori Tirana could have been a proper handful if they'd actually bothered to turn up,
Joking aside, the difference between then and now.....
Then - Harder to qualify for and easier to win.
Now - Easier to qualify for and harder to win.
Nentori Tirana do sound scary though.
They have been saying the same for years though - Liverpool is always touted as a top team that will be challenging. 80% of the pundits are Liverpool fans or ex-players.
I still think they lack the necessary squad depth to sustain a title challenge.
City will retain it, of that I'm 100% sure. If Liverpool make good signings next summer and keep hold of their key players, then I could see them seriously challenging next season. Which is depressing.
I hope I'm wrong.
City will retain it, of that I'm 100% sure. If Liverpool make good signings next summer and keep hold of their key players, then I could see them seriously challenging next season. Which is depressing.
I hope I'm wrong.
Albeit, then you could barely afford to lose a match, now you can lose 2 or 3 and still win it.
Joking aside, the difference between then and now.....
Then - Harder to qualify for and easier to win.
Now - Easier to qualify for and harder to win.
Nentori Tirana do sound scary though.
This whole argument from Utd fans about how "easy" it was to win then always makes me laugh. From 77-84, if the format had been as is now, are you saying Liverpool wouldn't have won it 4 times?
They were the best in Europe for that period, regardless of the format.
- Status