Liverpool 2018/19

[TheLord]

The Fa Cup has lost it’s magic. Gerrard didn’t seem to think so when he smashed home that volley against West Ham.

The FA cup loses its magic and regains it every year depending on whether or not "your" team has been dumped out of the competition.

I remember a few years back when Arsenal won it with Wenger, the London victory parade was as "flashy" as when Chelsea had won the Premier League the season before.

The "fickle" commentary on the importance of the FA cup represents double standards equal to anything else in the English game.

 

[Hazza83]

That was my point. Liverpool spent so much this year for depth but still managed to put out excuses about 'prioritzing the league'. Spurs don't have any depth atm so can't really comment on that but it really feels weird that clubs who haven't had a taste of victory for some time now just disregard a genuine chance of winning silverware.

And the excuses of league prioritization are understandable when there are crunch games upcoming with an FA cup tie sandwiched in between. Not something which someone can foresee in January and just give up on the competition.

I think you’ve missed the point. Klopp hasn’t disregarded a genuine chance at silverware. He has assessed the situation (squad depth after considering existing injuries) and selected a team in order to preserve a chance of winning something (the league). In fact, he took a chance with Lovren and this has resulted in another injury. Hypothetically, if we were in a lower position in the league with a squad not capable of challenging for the PL title or CL (not referring to any team in particular here), it would make no sense to play a weakened team. This is not our situation this season.

As to spending money on squad depth, we’ve purchased 5 players in the last year. VVD and Allison are clear first team players. They needed a rest after a very heavy Dec period. Fabinho, Shaq and Keita were all played in the cup game but it wasn’t enough against a good wolves team.

 

[RochaRoja]

As a “neutral” fan (my English club is in the lower leagues and has basically no chance of ever winning it) the FA Cup is nothing but a consolation trophy for big teams who don’t win the PL or CL, or a nice bonus in addition to winning one of the above.

FA Cup weekends breaking up the flow of the early months of the year in the PL are always a massive frustration. I actually prefer the League Cup because of its midweek schedule and lack of replays.

 

[antihenry]

 

[Alex99]

Hypothetically, if we were in a lower position in the league with a squad not capable of challenging for the PL title or CL (not referring to any team in particular here), it would make no sense to play a weakened team. This is not our situation this season.

You weren't capable of competing for the PL title or CL in his first season and went out in the fourth round. You weren't capable of competing for the PL title or CL in his second season and went out in the fourth round. You weren't capable of competing for the PL in his third season, and had no idea how far you could go in the CL in his third season, and went out in the fourth round. The teams that knocked you out were West Ham, West Brom, and a then Championship Wolves.

All of this bollocks about, "well if weren't trying to win this then we'd have got further," is all well and good until you remember that you weren't properly in contention for anything in any of the seasons you got knocked out early in the FA Cup, until this season.

 

[RobinLFC]

You weren't capable of competing for the PL title or CL in his first season and went out in the fourth round. You weren't capable of competing for the PL title or CL in his second season and went out in the fourth round. You weren't capable of competing for the PL in his third season, and had no idea how far you could go in the CL in his third season, and went out in the fourth round. The teams that knocked you out were West Ham, West Brom, and a then Championship Wolves.

All of this bollocks about, "well if weren't trying to win this then we'd have got further," is all well and good until you remember that you weren't properly in contention for anything in any of the seasons you got knocked out early in the FA Cup, until this season.

But it's not like we deliberately threw our game at Wolves this year - we made as much changes to our side as other top 6 teams did (I only checked Chelsea and United). The difference is that we were away to a decent Wolves side and yous both played Championship teams at home.

Every top team plays weakened sides in Round 3 and Round 4 of the FA Cup.

 

[Josh 76]

But it's not like we deliberately threw our game at Wolves this year - we made as much changes to our side as other top 6 teams did (I only checked Chelsea and United). The difference is that we were away to a decent Wolves side and yous both played Championship teams at home.

Every top team plays weakened sides in Round 3 and Round 4 of the FA Cup.

Great post.
Also i just think the domestic cup competitions have lost their appeal. When Utd lost in the final last year, it bothered me about 48 hrs at the most. But I'm still not over the 2009 champions league final and the Augero goal. Most Utd fans, me included, are just happy you guys lost and we are magnifying more than usual.
Liverpool fans are probably already over it and once you beat Brighton on Saturday, it won't even be mentioned. P.s hope you lose to Brighton by the way.

 

[Alex99]

But it's not like we deliberately threw our game at Wolves this year - we made as much changes to our side as other top 6 teams did (I only checked Chelsea and United). The difference is that we were away to a decent Wolves side and yous both played Championship teams at home.

Every top team plays weakened sides in Round 3 and Round 4 of the FA Cup.

It's not even necessarily about the squad you pick, but the attitude going into the game. We've a decent wealth of evidence to suggest by now that there's something about your approach to FA Cup ties under Klopp that simply means the players aren't up for it, whether it's because he's picking a rotated squad, or whether it's because you simply don't care enough.

Top teams do tend to play weakened sides in Rounds 3 and 4, but they also tend to win in Rounds 3 and 4. You're the only top 6 side to not make it out of Round 3 this season. Only Liverpool and Arsenal failed to reach Round 5 last season. You were the only top 6 side that failed to reach Round 5 in 2016/17. You were the only team of the established top 6 to fail to reach Round 5 in 2015/16, and Southampton were the only team in that season's top 8 to join you in exiting before Round 5.

Top clubs have suffered early round exits on occasion, but none as consistently as Liverpool over the last four seasons, least of all against weaker opposition.

 

[GNRfan]

Considering we put out a weakened side, Wolves only just managed to beat us 2-1. We were there for the taking. We don't have the squad to fight every competition at the moment.

Even if we won the FA Cup, people would still say, "But you didn't win the PL!"

 

[RobinLFC]

Nah I don't think that's enough to see a pattern, I don't believe the players just can't be arsed because it's an FA Cup tie. We would've gone through with the team we put out if we got to play Tranmere, Forest or Reading.

 

[RobinLFC]

Just had a quick look. United has never even had to face a PL team before the sixth round of the FA Cup in 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2018. Last time you did was in the 13/14 season, against Swansea in the 3th round which you... lost at home.

 

[Thisistheone]

Nah I don't think that's enough to see a pattern, I don't believe the players just can't be arsed because it's an FA Cup tie. We would've gone through with the team we put out if we got to play Tranmere, Forest or Reading.

Probably.

Also, Klopp at Dortmund didn't win any cup before going onto win back to back leagues. He knows what he's doing, no doubt.

And if City are going for all 4 trophies then this season really is your best chance in 30 years.

 

[Random Task]

I assumed it was 'whiners'.

I am absolutely positively unequivocally almost certain that it is winners.

However, 4 months from now...

 

[Alex99]

Nah I don't think that's enough to see a pattern, I don't believe the players just can't be arsed because it's an FA Cup tie. We would've gone through with the team we put out if we got to play Tranmere, Forest or Reading.

So how did you end up losing to a shit West Brom and Championship Wolves at home then in previous seasons?

I don't get how you can say that's not a pattern. Since Klopp got the Liverpool job, of the currently established Top 6 teams, Arsenal are the only other team to fail to reach Round 5, and they've only missed out on it once, while Liverpool have missed it in all four seasons.

Liverpool last won the FA Cup in 2006, so if we go from the season after (2006/07) to the season before Klopp took over (2014/15) and look at the number of times each of the currently established top 6 missed out on Round 5, you'll see the pattern even clearer.

Liverpool missed out five times (la) in those 9 seasons, once in three consecutive years, but that included two exits away to United and Everton, with the other being a year they finished lower than 6th. They also lost to Arsenal in one of them, and the other was also a non-top-6 finish.

City missed out four times, with two coming from finishes outside of the top 8, never mind the top 6, and another being a defeat to United.

Spurs missed out six times, with two being consecutive away defeats to United, during which they finished outside of the top 6 in one season, and outside of the top 8 in another. They were also knocked out by Arsenal away one year.

Chelsea have missed out just twice.

Arsenal missed out just once, and that was to City away.

United missed out three times, once coming from a season in which they finished outside of the top 6, and another coming away to Liverpool.

Just had a quick look. United has never even had to face a PL team before the sixth round of the FA Cup in 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2018. Last time you did was in the 13/14 season, against Swansea in the 3th round which you... lost at home.

We faced Huddersfield in Round 5 last season, for one. Also, what relevance does this have when Liverpool haven't faced anyone in Round 5 or beyond since 2015?

This season you were knocked out by a team below you in the Premier League. Last season you were knocked out by a team that finished bottom of the Premier League. The season before you were knocked out by a team that finished 15th in the Championship, after being taken to a replay by a team from League Two.

West Ham actually finished above you in Klopp's first season, which might make that one somewhat forgivable, but even that season you were taken to a replay by a team that finished 14th in League Two.

In 2011/12 United had City away in Round 3, followed by Liverpool away in Round 4. When you last managed to progress further than Round 4 (2014/15), you got all the way to the semi-final and only played one Premier League team, and that as 10th placed Crystal Palace in Round 5.

It's luck of the draw, but Premier League teams can expect to avoid each other in the first couple of rounds, or at least avoid drawing the top 6, more often than not.

 

[RobinLFC]

So how did you end up losing to a shit West Brom and Championship Wolves at home then in previous seasons?

I'm not even gonna pretend I read all those facts anymore because I don't even know what you're trying to achieve with citing all of that.

We probably lost because we were either unlucky or not the better side on the day, it happens. I don't believe in such patterns. It's like saying Newcastle has better odds to win than United at St. James' Park because Mourinho has never won there - feck that it's not a pattern, he's just had some bad luck or bad performances a couple of times in a row at the same ground, it's not because his teams can't win in Newcastle or can't be arsed in that particular ground.

 

[B20]

I think there is a pattern in the sense that Klopps methods rely a lot on training and playing together for a good while - which is also why we basically rely on the same 15-16 players throughout most of the season and getting into the starting line up is a tough job.

The team against wolves looked like a mixture of players who knew their time is up and played like it - Sturridge, origi, moreno, Mignolet, kids and players who looked like fish out of water when looking at team mates.

 

[Random Task]

I'm not even gonna pretend I read all those facts anymore because I don't even know what you're trying to achieve with citing all of that.

We probably lost because we were either unlucky or not the better side on the day, it happens. I don't believe in such patterns. It's like saying Newcastle has better odds to win than United at St. James' Park because Mourinho has never won there - feck that it's not a pattern, he's just had some bad luck or bad performances a couple of times in a row at the same ground, it's not because his teams can't win in Newcastle or can't be arsed in that particular ground.

The pattern of playing a significantly weakened team whenever they participate in an FA cup match probably doesn't help the matter.

Given how long it has been since Liverpool won a trophy, you'd think Klopp would put out a team capable of actually winning the competition.

 

[RobinLFC]

The pattern of playing a significantly weakened team whenever they participate in an FA cup match probably doesn't help the matter.

Given how long it has been since Liverpool won a trophy, you'd think Klopp would put out a team capable of actually winning the competition.

First point - as already said, every top 6 team does that.

Second point - feck that if we have a chance to win the league. I'd like to see him go all out in the FA Cup if we were in a position like yourselves currently though yeah, no doubt.

 

[Alex99]

First point - as already said, every top 6 team does that.

Second point - feck that if we have a chance to win the league. I'd like to see him go all out in the FA Cup if we were in a position like yourselves currently though yeah, no doubt.

First point - The other top 6 teams have reached the fifth round every season since Klopp's been in charge, with the exception of Arsenal missing out once.

Second point - You didn't have a chance of winning the league in the previous three seasons but still failed to get there. In fact, in his first season you only had cup competitions to go for.

 

[Kapardin]

Just read on twitter that Liverpool vs Chelsea is on the exact same day as the anniversary of the Slip this season apparently. Signs.

 

[RobinLFC]

First point - The other top 6 teams have reached the fifth round every season since Klopp's been in charge, with the exception of Arsenal missing out once.

Second point - You didn't have a chance of winning the league in the previous three seasons but still failed to get there. In fact, in his first season you only had cup competitions to go for.

1) You're repeating yourself.

2) Err, okay? I didn't say I was happy to be knocked out last year or the year before did I?

 

[Roosney]

First point - as already said, every top 6 team does that.

Second point - feck that if we have a chance to win the league. I'd like to see him go all out in the FA Cup if we were in a position like yourselves currently though yeah, no doubt.

Small club mentality. Can you see that pattern at least?

 

[Alex99]

1) You're repeating yourself.

2) Err, okay? I didn't say I was happy to be knocked out last year or the year before did I?

1) Stop making the same weird points then when there's evidence that goes against it

2) No, but you're using something as an excuse this season when the same thing has happened in the three seasons previous, without the excuse being relevant then.

 

[Klopper76]

Small club mentality. Can you see that pattern at least?

The mentality of a club that hasn't won the league in nearly 30 years imo.

If we do win the league, this conversation will be irrelevant. It's one to revisit if we end up with nothing again. Klopp will rightfully get criticized for throwing in the towel in the FA Cup if he ends up empty handed.

 

[RobinLFC]

1) Stop making the same weird points then when there's evidence that goes against it

2) No, but you're using something as an excuse this season when the same thing has happened in the three seasons previous, without the excuse being relevant then.

There is literally no evidence against my point, which was that every top team does it. The result of those games is irrelevant to the point that every team does it.

I'm not using it as an excuse at all? I'm just saying feck the FA Cup, I can't be bothered by it if going out increases our chances to win the league. I didn't refer to any of my feelings towards going out of the FA Cup the previous years.

I really don't know anymore what point you are even trying to make apart from repeating yourself over and over again.

 

[rzoroLFC]

The mentality of a club that hasn't won the league in nearly 30 years imo.

If we do win the league, this conversation will be irrelevant. It's one to revisit if we end up with nothing again. Klopp will rightfully get criticized for throwing in the towel in the FA Cup if he ends up empty handed.

No he won't and nor should he. End of the day klopp is trying to give us the best chance to win the league. To play a full strength team against wolves risking injury (see lovren) is just plain stupid. Playing less games gives us less chance of injury and keeps the players as fresh as possible. Its just plain commonsense. If klopp won nothing he would still have the full support of the board and the majority of the liverpool fans and that's all that matters at the end of the day.

 

[Random Task]

First point - as already said, every top 6 team does that.

Second point - feck that if we have a chance to win the league. I'd like to see him go all out in the FA Cup if we were in a position like yourselves currently though yeah, no doubt.

1. They do. But United, Liverpool and Chelsea have accumulated a large number of trophies over the last decade or so and can afford to play weakened teams when the situation dictates. Liverpool hasn't won anything for a very long time.

2. What do you mean if? You've already won both the league and CL titles so why not go all out for the treble? Lovren was clearly up for it.

 

[Alex99]

There is literally no evidence against my point, which was that every top team does it. The result of those games is irrelevant to the point that every team does it.

I'm not using it as an excuse at all? I'm just saying feck the FA Cup, I can't be bothered by it if going out increases our chances to win the league. I didn't refer to any of my feelings towards going out of the FA Cup the previous years.

I really don't know anymore what point you are even trying to make apart from repeating yourself over and over again.

The evidence isn't against top 6 teams rotating, it's against rotating being the reason you've failed to reach the 5th round even once in the last four seasons, because as you've said, the other top 6 teams rotate, but somehow find their way through year after year.

Well you are using it as an excuse. feck the FA Cup in this year in particular because we're going for the league, but please ignore that we have fecked the FA Cup off for the three seasons before despite being nowhere near in contention for the league title.

Just admit your manager doesn't give a toss about the cups, regardless of whether you're on course to finish 8th and it's all you have, whether you're on course to finish 4th and it'd be nice way to round out the season, or whether you're in contention for a major trophy and it'd be a nice addition.

 

[Random Task]

No he won't and nor should he. End of the day klopp is trying to give us the best chance to win the league. To play a full strength team against wolves risking injury (see lovren) is just plain stupid. Playing less games gives us less chance of injury and keeps the players as fresh as possible. Its just plain commonsense. If klopp won nothing he would still have the full support of the board and the majority of the liverpool fans and that's all that matters at the end of the day.

Fallen. How. Have. Mighty. The.

Or words to that effect.

 

[Liver_bird]

Just read on twitter that Liverpool vs Chelsea is on the exact same day as the anniversary of the Slip this season apparently. Signs.

No way that wasn’t intentional.

 

[Alex99]

I think there is a pattern in the sense that Klopps methods rely a lot on training and playing together for a good while - which is also why we basically rely on the same 15-16 players throughout most of the season and getting into the starting line up is a tough job.

The team against wolves looked like a mixture of players who knew their time is up and played like it - Sturridge, origi, moreno, Mignolet, kids and players who looked like fish out of water when looking at team mates.

Surely then, if you're relying on a small first-team squad to play the bulk of your Premier League games and get you through the CL, the cups play an important role in providing valuable game-time to the fringe players in your squad that may find themselves in the first-team in the event of injury, or for first team players not quite at full fitness?

United played Sanchez and Lukaku against Reading because they needed the minutes to get back to match-fitness. You're now in a position where Lovren, Matip and Gomez (isn't VVD ill or something too?) are all out injured, and will all need minutes to get back their sharpness, but the only games you've got left to give to them are games in the PL and CL, and that's just your central defenders.

 

[RobinLFC]

Fallen. How. Have. Mighty. The.

Or words to that effect.

Are you kidding yourself right now? "Oh how the mighty have fallen that they still consider a lost CL Final a succesful season and a tightly fought, but ultimately lost title race as a succesful season".

It's not like we, I don't know, were dwelling in mediocrity and were irrelevant for years on end (apart from one freak season) before Klopp arrived, right? Rebuilding takes time, and while you could rightfully argue that we should win something rather sooner than later, we've been close to two of the biggest trophies in his 3th and 4th years, so of course we are still backing him. There is no one better suited for the job and everyone, fans, board and players alike, loves him.

 

[rzoroLFC]

Fallen. How. Have. Mighty. The.

Or words to that effect.

Meh....call it what you want. We're happy with who we have in charge and also realistic. Chances are to beat city to the title we will need around 97 points which is something we've never even remotely achieved before. They have a great squad and great manager and will most probably dominate for many years to come. Do i want us to win, of course i do. Would i be gutted if we didn't, of course i would. But we're going off topic. Fact is we don't have the quality in our squad to take the FA cup seriously. Maybe if we had the likes of ox, lallana, gomez and matip all fit then he may have played a slightly stronger team. Either way i'm not sure how you can classify as 'fallen' since we hit rock botton long time ago when we appointed hodgson. We have been progressing upwards ever since.

 

[Random Task]

Are you kidding yourself right now? "Oh how the mighty have fallen that they still consider a lost CL Final a succesful season and a tightly fought, but ultimately lost title race as a succesful season".

It's not like we, I don't know, were dwelling in mediocrity and were irrelevant for years on end (apart from one freak season) before Klopp arrived, right? Rebuilding takes time, and while you could rightfully argue that we should win something rather sooner than later, we've been close to two of the biggest trophies in his 3th and 4th years, so of course we are still backing him. There is no one better suited for the job and everyone, fans, board and players alike, loves him.

I don't get this post, sorry.

The bolded part in particular.

 

[Klopper76]

Surely then, if you're relying on a small first-team squad to play the bulk of your Premier League games and get you through the CL, the cups play an important role in providing valuable game-time to the fringe players in your squad that may find themselves in the first-team in the event of injury, or for first team players not quite at full fitness?

United played Sanchez and Lukaku against Reading because they needed the minutes to get back to match-fitness. You're now in a position where Lovren, Matip and Gomez (isn't VVD ill or something too?) are all out injured, and will all need minutes to get back their sharpness, but the only games you've got left to give to them are games in the PL and CL, and that's just your central defenders.

Long term absentees require a few games to get back to match sharpness. Players who've been out for a few weeks shouldn't really.

You don't really expect Van Dijk to need a few games to get back to fitness after a minor knock do you?

 

[RobinLFC]

I don't get this post, sorry.

The bolded part in particular.

Competing but falling just short can't be considered a failure just yet if we didn't even compete at all before Klopp arrived.

Of course in a way it's a failure, but it's still very acceptable progress for me.

 

[Alex99]

Long term absentees require a few games to get back to match sharpness. Players who've been out for a few weeks shouldn't really.

You don't really expect Van Dijk to need a few games to get back to fitness after a minor knock do you?

I don't know what's wrong with Van Dijk, I just saw his name on an injury list and vaguely remembered some mention of him being ill.

When you're in a title race and every point matters, you want your players firing at all cylinders. Even a couple of weeks out is enough for a player to need some minutes elsewhere before being expected to play 90 minutes in a must win game.

 

[Schneckerl]

The FA cup loses its magic and regains it every year depending on whether or not "your" team has been dumped out of the competition.

I remember a few years back when Arsenal won it with Wenger, the London victory parade was as "flashy" as when Chelsea had won the Premier League the season before.

The "fickle" commentary on the importance of the FA cup represents double standards equal to anything else in the English game.

In a leaked contract from United I've seen a few years ago the bonus for winning the PL was 2.5M and FA Cup was 1M. I don't know whether as it was debunked as fake or not, but that should give us an idea how much clubs value the trophy.

 

[Klopper76]

I don't know what's wrong with Van Dijk, I just saw his name on an injury list and vaguely remembered some mention of him being ill.

When you're in a title race and every point matters, you want your players firing at all cylinders. Even a couple of weeks out is enough for a player to need some minutes elsewhere before being expected to play 90 minutes in a must win game.

I'm not convinced that being able to play Gomez or Matip for a few minutes in an FA Cup tie is going to make a difference to their overall sharpness. They could get the same from a game against Burnley at home which we'd still be expected to win without those two.

 

[Halds]

Small club mentality. Can you see that pattern at least?

So here we are with our small club mentality, setting the league as our target, when we should have gone all in on the FA cup.

I'm sure Wenger got a lot of respect here in his latter years with his 3 cups.. And the Arsenal fans must have begged him to stay with that trophy haul.

We might fail to win the league, and then you can celebrate all summer, like if you won it yourselves. But at least we go for it with all we've got, and as evidenced against Wolves, our squad is not of the required quality to compete on all fronts.