Liverpool 2014/15 | WARNING: Contains strong amounts of Scouse nonsense

I watched the WC final with a Liverpool supporting mate yesterday who is actually sane. We had a good chat about the footy. He said that he reckons we'd have a really good season and he's jealous as feck that we landed LVG. He's also bewildered by Brent's signings and can't believe the first thing they didn't do was address centre back and right back.

He's also worried that lack of Suarez means the fear factor will disappear next season. Although he did say that Llanananana will prove a lot of doubters wrong and I agree with him on that.
 
moses said:
They have done bar one season with ye above them when they were trying in integrate new players. You really just don't want to see any reason they might finish above you.
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At present I don't see them as top 4 contenders for next season, if I am wrong so be it. I suppose at the end of the window we will have a clearer picture.

Derek Acorah said:
I watched the WC final with a Liverpool supporting mate yesterday who is actually sane. We had a good chat about the footy. He said that he reckons we'd have a really good season and he's jealous as feck that we landed LVG. He's also bewildered by Brent's signings and can't believe the first thing they didn't do was address centre back and right back.

He's also worried that lack of Suarez means the fear factor will disappear next season. Although he did say that Llanananana will prove a lot of doubters wrong and I agree with him on that.
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He did try and address the left back and centre back positions, but we haven't been able to agree a deal for Moreno and Lovren. I strongly suspect new recruits are being planned as we all agree we need to be a lot better defensively.

Clearly United will be better, however to be jealous for me is wide of the mark as I feel we have a really good young manager who I wouldn't look at changing.

I think Lallana is a very good player. Lambert adds depth to the squad that we need, and Can may just offer a more physical presence in midfield, that said I confess I don't know a great deal about him.

EDIT - reports suggest Markovic is having a medical today, fee around £20m from Benfica.
 
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moses said:
They have done bar one season with ye above them when they were trying in integrate new players. You really just don't want to see any reason they might finish above you.
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There are reasons why Spurs could finish above United as well...

Of course you can rationalise Spurs finishing above Liverpool but there seems to be an overt effort to paint Liverpool as a one-man band that will now struggle without him. What about the rationale that Liverpool are already a 'team' unlike Spurs, they have a settled manager who was Manager of the Year and had far more positives in their first XI than virtually every other team last season?

Of course you can go back a few years and see Spurs above Liverpool but prior to 2009 Spurs hadn't finished above Liverpool in 30+ years but that didn't stop them doing so for more than a single season in the next few years.

Genuinely, as long as Liverpool have Rodgers in charge I am confident that the future is rosey. It may not be a linear upward trajectory but incremental improvement all around the pitch is more important than pitching your hopes on the wish that your best player will stay. I think Rodgers has done enough with the other players to suggest he can continue to put out a strong team.

Plenty on here last season were lamenting the fact that Liverpool had managed to get such a manager who looks the real deal. However, it now seems that Rodgers isn't part of the conversation with Suarez' departure seemingly enough to satisfy most United fans that Liverpool are in decline. I suggest that you are being distracted and missing the bigger picture.
 
Rodgers is a great manager. But you'll struggle to keep up with us long term now we're signing this £70 mill a season Adidas deal, have the better manager, have the bigger stadium and are generally a far bigger club. It really is that black & white for me.

The season after Fergie was always going to be the toughest. Conspiracy theorists claim that Moyes was put there on purpose, everyone knew he'd probably fail and the guy AFTER him wouldn't have the pressure because he'd be replacing Moyes, not the great Sir Alex. But I don't believe that.

Liverpool fans are a still a bit giddy after last season because 1. they finished above United for the first time in fecking ages and 2. they scored goals for fun.

But you'll come back down to earth with a bump next season IMO. United, Spurs, Arsenal and Chelsea will all be far, far stronger.
 
PickledRed said:
There are reasons why Spurs could finish above United as well...

Of course you can rationalise Spurs finishing above Liverpool but there seems to be an overt effort to paint Liverpool as a one-man band that will now struggle without him. What about the rationale that Liverpool are already a 'team' unlike Spurs, they have a settled manager who was Manager of the Year and had far more positives in their first XI than virtually every other team last season?

Of course you can go back a few years and see Spurs above Liverpool but prior to 2009 Spurs hadn't finished above Liverpool in 30+ years but that didn't stop them doing so for more than a single season in the next few years.

Genuinely, as long as Liverpool have Rodgers in charge I am confident that the future is rosey. It may not be a linear upward trajectory but incremental improvement all around the pitch is more important than pitching your hopes on the wish that your best player will stay. I think Rodgers has done enough with the other players to suggest he can continue to put out a strong team.

Plenty on here last season were lamenting the fact that Liverpool had managed to get such a manager who looks the real deal. However, it now seems that Rodgers isn't part of the conversation with Suarez' departure seemingly enough to satisfy most United fans that Liverpool are in decline. I suggest that you are being distracted and missing the bigger picture.
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It seems to me that many Liverpool fans are fixated on looking at a bigger picture that might not be there. Without Suarez you're a spear without an arrowhead. I reckon you'll be lacking that end product and also that ability to win games from nowhere, which Suarez was capable of doing. I mean, there's plenty of teams that play the brand of football Rodgers had on display last season, only difference is they don't have arguably the 3rd best player on the planet. Even when Ronaldo left us, we still had world class players and vast experience to make up for it and still be successful.
 
PickledRed said:
There are reasons why Spurs could finish above United as well...

Of course you can rationalise Spurs finishing above Liverpool but there seems to be an overt effort to paint Liverpool as a one-man band that will now struggle without him. What about the rationale that Liverpool are already a 'team' unlike Spurs, they have a settled manager who was Manager of the Year and had far more positives in their first XI than virtually every other team last season?

Of course you can go back a few years and see Spurs above Liverpool but prior to 2009 Spurs hadn't finished above Liverpool in 30+ years but that didn't stop them doing so for more than a single season in the next few years.

Genuinely, as long as Liverpool have Rodgers in charge I am confident that the future is rosey. It may not be a linear upward trajectory but incremental improvement all around the pitch is more important than pitching your hopes on the wish that your best player will stay. I think Rodgers has done enough with the other players to suggest he can continue to put out a strong team.

Plenty on here last season were lamenting the fact that Liverpool had managed to get such a manager who looks the real deal. However, it now seems that Rodgers isn't part of the conversation with Suarez' departure seemingly enough to satisfy most United fans that Liverpool are in decline. I suggest that you are being distracted and missing the bigger picture.
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It's a team game, I'm not saying it's a one man band, but when you have a player as comparitively good as Suarez and you lose that player it takes a lot to compensate. As for Liverpool already being a team, you've lost your most effective player and have to blood new players.

What United might or might not do is irrelevant in this discussion. Personally I wouldn't put a lot of money on Pool finishing above Spuds
 
moses said:
Even if pool do buy more, it'll be to improve the squad, the first team will be weaker without bitey racist chap.
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We've found for the past 20 odd years that building your team around one or two great players generally makes you, at best, a nearly team. United found that in the 80's/early 90's with Bryan Robson. & you actually went on to improve as a team when Cantona called it a day. Plus, despite all his goals for United, you only won one league title in 5 years with RVN in the side. So it's not unusual for a club to improve when a key player is no longer around.

I asked the question a few days ago: If footballing success was purely down to players. How did Manchester United go from 89 points to 64 points in just 12 months with pretty much the same bunch of players ?

Don't you think the manager has a big say in a club's fortunes ?
 
moses said:
It's a team game, I'm not saying it's a one man band, but when you have a player as comparitively good as Suarez and you lose that player it takes a lot to compensate. As for Liverpool already being a team, you've lost your most effective player and have to blood new players.

What United might or might not do is irrelevant in this discussion. Personally I wouldn't put a lot of money on Pool finishing above Spuds
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We'd have lost him for the first third of the season anyway, so if he was as important to us as you say he was, then we'd have had to have made up a lot of ground for the remainder of the season. Also, let's not forget what a lot of people on here have said about Suarez's lack of influence against the better sides in the PL. They claim he didn't really perform that well when playing against a good side. In all honesty, I found it very difficult to disagree with that assumption, because other than his first game against United when Kuyt scored the hat-trick, I'm struggling to think of many other games where he's been outstanding when up against a top 4 side. We only took 6 points out of a possible 18 from the other top 4 teams last season. So maybe we need to do something different in order to for us to cause more problems for our top 4 competitors. Having more variation in our attacking options would be a good start.
 
redman5 said:
We've found for the past 20 odd years that building your team around one or two great players generally makes you, at best, a nearly team. United found that in the 80's/early 90's with Bryan Robson. & you actually went on to improve as a team when Cantona called it a day. Plus, despite all his goals for United, you only won one league title in 5 years with RVN in the side. So it's not unusual for a club to improve when a key player is no longer around.

I asked the question a few days ago: If footballing success was purely down to players. How did Manchester United go from 89 points to 64 points in just 12 months with pretty much the same bunch of players ?

Don't you think the manager has a big say in a club's fortunes ?
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Of course, it's a combination, but like losing Bale it will be a big blow. RVN wasn't lost, he was sold, the manager saw the issues, so not really the same.

If you think that losing Suarez improves Liverpool, is it based on anything other than the incorrect comparison with RVN?
 
redman5 said:
We'd have lost him for the first third of the season anyway, so if he was as important to us as you say he was, then we'd have had to have made up a lot of ground for the remainder of the season. Also, let's not forget what a lot of people on here have said about Suarez's lack of influence against the better sides in the PL. They claim he didn't really perform that well when playing against a good side. In all honesty, I found it very difficult to disagree with that assumption, because other than his first game against United when Kuyt scored the hat-trick, I'm struggling to think of many other games where he's been outstanding when up against a top 4 side. We only took 6 points out of a possible 18 from the other top 4 teams last season. So maybe we need to do something different in order to for us to cause more problems for our top 4 competitors. Having more variation in our attacking options would be a good start.
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Something different, like a defence. Again, can you see how losing someone of his ability can make you better or is it just a possibility based on signings yet to be made?
 
I think that despite their signings and potential signings, a lot of how well Liverpool go will depend on Sterling. He is seriously talented and I rate him highly. If he can improve and go up another level it will go some way to replacing Suarez.
 
moses said:
Something different, like a defence. Again, can you see how losing someone of his ability can make you better or is it just a possibility based on signings yet to be made?
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I'm basing it on how well we seemed to cope for the 10 games he was missing through suspension, & with a threadbare squad. Not too unreasonable when you consider we'll have a stronger pool of players to call from in the future.
 
redman5 said:
I'm basing it on how well we seemed to cope for the 10 games he was missing through suspension, & with a threadbare squad. Not too unreasonable when you consider we'll have a stronger pool of players to call from in the future.
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Back to the original and central point, losing your best player and buying several more is not that easy. See Spurs. As we have completed a full circle here I have no more to add.
 
moses said:
It can happen, and the manager was proactive in getting rid, can you still not see the difference. That is not what happned here. It wasn't a tactical sale, or was it now?
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It also happened with Cantona too. Fergie tried to talk him out of quitting, but without him, United went on to bigger & better things. I'm not saying that we will be a superior side without Suarez, because a lot depends on how the manager copes with his loss, & how the players, current & new, adapt to life without him. I still think we'll be a side full of pace, still play on the front foot, & still cause sides plenty of problems. Even with Suarez playing a full season for us, I never expected us to repeat what we did last season (84 points & 101 goals). But I certainly don't think we'll slip off the radar as far as the top 4 places go.
 
redman5 said:
Like RVN ??????
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The difference with RvN is that he was shipped out because he was holding Rooney and particularly Ronaldo back. By switching to Saha, who was plainly worse at goalscoring but better at linking up play, we brought the best out of those two, as seen in our stellar next season.

Plus RvN was certainly our main goalscorer, but in a squad that still contained Rio, Vidic, Carrick, Scholes, Giggs, Rooney & Ronaldo, its hard to argue that he was our best player.

Suarez on the other hand helped Sturridge to score almost as many in 18 months as his entire career so far. Not to mention helping bring the best out of your other attackers. In no way can you argue that losing Suarez will help those players. At best they'll manage without him. If they increase their personal goals tally, I'll be more than surprised.

And again unlike RvN, there's little doubt that Suarez is streets ahead of the rest of the cast, whatever quality they may also have.
 
redman5 said:
It also happened with Cantona too. Fergie tried to talk him out of quitting, but without him, United went on to bigger & better things. I'm not saying that we will be a superior side without Suarez, because a lot depends on how the manager copes with his loss, & how the players, current & new, adapt to life without him. I still think we'll be a side full of pace, still play on the front foot, & still cause sides plenty of problems. Even with Suarez playing a full season for us, I never expected us to repeat what we did last season (84 points & 101 goals). But I certainly don't think we'll slip off the radar as far as the top 4 places go.
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If we are going to keep bringing your beloved Manchester United into the equation, I might remind you that Brenton Rodgers has a long way to go where it can be assumed he can deal with team rebuilding as well as Mr Ferguson.
 
moses said:
Yep, but relevant ones as opposed to situations that are not even similar. Comparisons are useful if they are accurate.
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So what's the accurate comparison between us & Spurs then ? Different clubs. Different owners. Different players. Different managers. There isn't even a distinct comparison between how Spurs finished in Bales final season to ours with Suarez. The players we've signed thus far were probably going to come anyway even had Suarez stayed. So this nonsense about us buying players 'Spurs style' doesn't hold much water seeing as you all told us anyway we'd need a much bigger squad this season, & that's what we're doing. It's about as relevant as saying Brendan Rodgers shouldn't buy British players because Kenny Dalglish bought rubbish in Carroll, Downing, & Adam.
 
moses said:
If we are going to keep bringing your beloved Manchester United into the equation, I might remind you that Brenton Rodgers has a long way to go where it can be assumed he can deal with team rebuilding as well as Mr Ferguson.
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I'm pretty sure I could find more comparisons whereby other clubs, & not so great managers, have thrived, despite losing a world-class player. Everton spring to mind. Finished runners-up in 1986, sold their leading goalscorer Gary Linaker, & won the league the following year.
 
moses said:
If we are going to keep bringing your beloved Manchester United into the equation, I might remind you that Brenton Rodgers has a long way to go where it can be assumed he can deal with team rebuilding as well as Mr Ferguson.
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This is a very good point. It's what kept Sir Alex at the top and where others have failed. Rodgers signings since his tenure at Liverpool began are questionable.
 
redman5 said:
I'm pretty sure I could find more comparisons whereby other clubs, & not so great managers, have thrived, despite losing a world-class player. Everton spring to mind. Finished runners-up in 1986, sold their leading goalscorer Gary Linaker, & won the league the following year.
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It's nice that you see hope. And as you say, it's possible losing the best player you've had in decades will improve you. It'd be quite the silver lining.

Everton were a better balanced side with and without Lineker, he made feck all happen in play, not so with Luis, he was your heartbeat, like Bale, the only comparison you don't like.
 
redman5 said:
I'm basing it on how well we seemed to cope for the 10 games he was missing through suspension, & with a threadbare squad. Not too unreasonable when you consider we'll have a stronger pool of players to call from in the future.
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ZDwyr said:
I think that despite their signings and potential signings, a lot of how well Liverpool go will depend on Sterling. He is seriously talented and I rate him highly. If he can improve and go up another level it will go some way to replacing Suarez.
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I agree with this. Sterling is the man going forward that I think will take over the mantle of "star" of the team. Last season, he was the player who stepped up more than anyone else in the run-in, he's 19 years old and he was putting in world-class performances week in, week out, when the pressure was at the highest its been at for 23 years. There's no one his age in the world, to my knowledge, giving performances of that level. When you're looking at where the goals are coming from in Suarez's absence, I think give it a year or two, and he'll be providing near enough 20 goals from the wing. He won't be Suarez level, but I think a he can go a long way to filling that void.

Rodgers has played it absolutely pitch perfect in terms of his development so far, and so I can only seeing him getting better.
 
moses said:
It's nice that you see hope. And as you say, it's possible losing the best player you've had in decades will improve you. It'd be quite the silver lining.
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The hope I have lies in the manager, & not with individual players. A manager who took over a 7th placed Liverpool side that finished on 52 points in 2012, & in the space of just 2 years had us in 2nd place with a plus 32 points difference. Let me just remind you that Luis Suarez played 31 league games in 2012 & scored just 11 goals. So don't you think that our manager might have had more than a little input into the 54 league goals he scored in Rodgers first 2 years in charge ? He's certainly not the only player to improve his game under the guidance of our young manager. I certainly have no reason to doubt there'll be a few more in the coming years.
 
redman5 said:
The hope I have lies in the manager, & not with individual players. A manager who took over a 7th placed Liverpool side that finished on 52 points in 2012, & in the space of just 2 years had us in 2nd place with a plus 32 points difference. Let me just remind you that Luis Suarez played 31 league games in 2012 & scored just 11 goals. So don't you think that our manager might have had more than a little input into the 54 league goals he scored in Rodgers first 2 years in charge ? He's certainly not the only player to improve his game under the guidance of our young manager. I certainly have no reason to doubt there'll be a few more in the coming years.
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I like how you keep referring to him as "our young manager".

Seriously, though, your young manager proved me wrong last season. I didn't see Liverpool nearly winning the league coming - at all. What he achieved last season was damn impressive.

But. Apart from the obvious challenge of playing on more than one front this season, there's also a sense that teams will see Liverpool coming now to a greater extent. You may face more teams approaching their match with you cynically, doing a Maureen, if you will. Rodgers hasn't impressed me when it comes to dealing with matches that require the famous "Plan B".

Liverpool were on a proper roll last season - how will Rodgers handle a less "rolling" sort of season, does he have a dimension beyond the one he showed last season, will he manage to keep reinforcing the team in spite of losing his best (by far) player? There are plenty of questions.
 
PickledRed said:
Keep writing Liverpool off. Takes pressure off apart from anything else. Plus, I've seen this movie before...

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/our-rivals-squad-next-season-liverpool.373613/#post-13766194
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One swallow doesnt make a summer.

Usually the Caf is right.

But I hope Liverpool fans continue to heap on the pressure on their team and club. Its not going to be easy to challenge with the distraction of Europe, no Suarez and trying to integrate 6-7 new players into a squad.
 
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Chesterlestreet said:
I like how you keep referring to him as "our young manager".

Seriously, though, your young manager proved me wrong last season. I didn't see Liverpool nearly winning the league coming - at all. What he achieved last season was damn impressive.

But. Apart from the obvious challenge of playing on more than one front this season, there's also a sense that teams will see Liverpool coming now to a greater extent. You may face more teams approaching their match with you cynically, doing a Maureen, if you will. Rodgers hasn't impressed me when it comes to dealing with matches that require the famous "Plan B".

Liverpool were on a proper roll last season - how will Rodgers handle a less "rolling" sort of season, does he have a dimension beyond the one he showed last season, will he manage to keep reinforcing the team in spite of losing his best (by far) player? There are plenty of questions.
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I don't think Rodgers has demonstrated a lack of flexibility when it comes to overcoming opposition. In fact, he's been incredibly pragmatic in his approach with tactical changes leading to wins and goals. His team won 12 of the last 14 games last season with wins and performances as varied as you can get. Late winners in scrappy games like Swansea at home and Fulham away. Very dominant home games against top 6 sides, basically bullying them off the park with aggressive attacking play. Tactical switches leading to Sterling playing centrally against United at OT. Coming from behind against Newcastle. The only game it didn't come off was Chelsea at home. While that was frustrating it would be incredibly simplistic to use that as evidence as to Liverpool's supposed lack of Plan B rather than using the overwhelming majority of matches as evidence of Rodgers' capacity to incorporate a variety of approaches.

Indeed, even saying Plan B suggests Liverpool had a Plan A set way of playing. In reality, Rodgers established a way of playing that didn't resemble a single system. I don't think you can win that many games with a rigid approach. It'd be too easy to stop.
 
PickledRed said:
But spent months on end saying one thing about Rodgers' Liverpool which never matched reality.
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Aye, we all thought you were going to win the league, how wrong we were. Won't make that mistake again.

Seriously, you're going to be lucky to get 5th.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
I like how you keep referring to him as "our young manager".

Seriously, though, your young manager proved me wrong last season. I didn't see Liverpool nearly winning the league coming - at all. What he achieved last season was damn impressive.

But. Apart from the obvious challenge of playing on more than one front this season, there's also a sense that teams will see Liverpool coming now to a greater extent. You may face more teams approaching their match with you cynically, doing a Maureen, if you will. Rodgers hasn't impressed me when it comes to dealing with matches that require the famous "Plan B".

Liverpool were on a proper roll last season - how will Rodgers handle a less "rolling" sort of season, does he have a dimension beyond the one he showed last season, will he manage to keep reinforcing the team in spite of losing his best (by far) player? There are plenty of questions.
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Did Manchester United ever had a 'plan B' during your 20 years of success under Fergie ? I don't think they did. I'm not too sure Arsenal, or even Chelsea have either. What you've all had however, is quality players to bring off the bench to change things that need changing. Managers & players work all week on a particular system, having a secondary system in place (just in case) isn't feasible. Being able to bring on certain players who may possess different qualities is certainly a must for all clubs aiming for top honours. We didn't have that last year, but I'd like to think this coming season might see us having a few more options available to break down stubborn teams.
 
redman5 said:
Well that's certainly an improvement on last year. We were going to be lucky to get 6th.
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Can you say something followed by "you can quote me", please?
 
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