Lisandro Martinez | Signs for United

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Mainoldo said:
In what way except height? Both ball playing CB.
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They are but Torres is a more passive style of defender where Martinez is more aggressive. And generally I'd say the latter style complements our current selection of CBs more.

Though perhaps to a lesser extent if we actually thought Maguire would be firmly ahead of Varane in the pecking order, as he's the most aggressive of our current three. But Martinez would seem a more natural fit than Torres if paired with either Varane or Lindelof.
 
Mainoldo said:
In what way except height? Both ball playing CB.
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“a ball-playing centre back” - a bit of a broad brush isn’t it? Torres is good on the ball but looks a lot more comfortable playing deep and lacks some aggression. I’ve not seen Martinez much but he’ll be much more assertive (as well as good on the ball) if ETH rates him so highly.
 
Mainoldo said:
In what way except height? Both ball playing CB.
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Martinez is a lot more proactive in his defending, often ventures out and presses very high by default. He is very good at switching play too.
 
Rocksy said:
“a ball-playing centre back” - a bit of a broad brush isn’t it? Torres is good on the ball but looks a lot more comfortable playing deep and lacks some aggression. I’ve not seen Martinez much but he’ll be much more assertive (as well as good on the ball) if ETH rates him so highly.
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He does play for Villarreal….. Yeah he is more passive but he’s currently a better footballer.
 
Was listening to No Question About That pod where an Amsterdam journalist was on and he was saying that Ajax fans are very happy with selling him for the rumoured fee, almost as if they can't believe how much he's going for. And that's what it's seemed to me too, the fee is exorbitant, taken to the cleaners.
 
Bastian said:
Was listening to No Question About That pod where an Amsterdam journalist was on and he was saying that Ajax fans are very happy with selling him for the rumoured fee, almost as if they can't believe how much he's going for. And that's what it's seemed to me too, the fee is exorbitant, taken to the cleaners.
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Odd…the Ajax fans on here and big Twitter fan accounts don’t seem to want him to go at all.
 
Bastian said:
Was listening to No Question About That pod where an Amsterdam journalist was on and he was saying that Ajax fans are very happy with selling him for the rumoured fee, almost as if they can't believe how much he's going for. And that's what it's seemed to me too, the fee is exorbitant, taken to the cleaners.
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Surely you see that the fee is contextual and far from black and white in an open market?
 
Maybe I missed this in the thread from earlier today but Ten Hag gave an update on transfer activity in his presser, saying:

“At my first press conference, I said already that definitely we are searching for players in the midfield and I think that we have a need,” said Ten Hag.

“But also, in offence, we are still looking for players. We want to have the right players. We have a really good squad. We are working to develop our way of playing. If the opportunity is there [to sign players], then we will strike.”

To me this signals that we possibly won’t be making any further additions at the back?

Would make sense if the original target was Timber that we are now waiting until January get our man then, rather than Martinez now.

Just a thought.
 
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Did I read on here that Pau Torres has a release clause of £43 million? That’s about €51 million so to exceed that for Martinez would be stupid.
 
Garethw said:
Did I read on here that Pau Torres has a release clause of £43 million? That’s about €51 million so to exceed that for Martinez would be stupid.
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Plus Fab has put it out there they would accept less than that.
 
I think 60m euro would make him the 8th most expensive CB of all time.

Hardly anybody who didn't follow Ajax or Argentina had even heard of this guy a few months ago.

I thought Arsenal's initial 30m euro bid was in the right ballpark and the word then was that it would take a bit more, like 35-40 euro, to get it done. 55-60m is madness.
 
Buy Martinez and Pau and play Martinez alongside De Jong and Eriksen.
 
A few weeks ago this was the easiest deal we’d do all summer. 40m would get it done we were told. What changed? Ajax haven’t sold anyone since have they?
 
dubplate warrior said:
Ben White cost 58.5m
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Ruben Diaz cost City £65 million which was a similar situation to Martinez in the fact they were similar ages at the time of the transfer and they were the best defender from a top team outside of the top 5 rate leagues. Ake to Chelsea also seems to be going for £40+ million and Botman to Newcastle was £35 million.

All things considered £45 million for him is actually a fair price.

People expect Ajax to just give away their players for peanuts because they are from the dutch league but they have been playing at a really high level for a while now so the players that have been playing a that high level are going to command decent fees.
 
Mainoldo said:
Pau Torres. Please United just move on and get it done. Save some money.
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How much are you expecting to save? his release clause is £55 million and they aren't going to let him go for much cheaper than that. At best we would get him for around £45 which is basically the same price as Martinez would cost.
 
Powderfinger said:
I think 60m euro would make him the 8th most expensive CB of all time.

Hardly anybody who didn't follow Ajax or Argentina had even heard of this guy a few months ago.

I thought Arsenal's initial 30m euro bid was in the right ballpark and the word then was that it would take a bit more, like 35-40 euro, to get it done. 55-60m is madness.
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Yeah well our Maguire stupidity and you lot throwing money for Ben White sort of inflated the market.
 
reddev3 said:
How much are you expecting to save? his release clause is £55 million and they aren't going to let him go for much cheaper than that. At best we would get him for around £45 which is basically the same price as Martinez would cost.
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He’s €55m and the club have put it out their they would accept as little as €45. Which i said Romano already confirmed. That’s around £38m. Which is saving a lot.
 
Mickeza said:
Odd…the Ajax fans on here and big Twitter fan accounts don’t seem to want him to go at all.
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Fortitude said:
Surely you see that the fee is contextual and far from black and white in an open market?
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He was speaking to Elko Born (his twitter here) who also said that prior to last season he wasn't really that highly thought of by the fans, who were still viewing him as "just a defender" and not a very technical player. Of course, we've seen his passing range, which would look great next to a fit Varane on the right side of him, but I still think the amount bandied about is incredibly high for someone who is not a sure bet, let alone in a physical league like the Prem.

I don't mind going for him, or Timber for that matter, but I think we need to be wary of overspending on individual players, especially if they're not that proven. I'm not arguing we should be signing Pau Torres instead as he also has question marks over him, definitely at a price of 50m euros (if that's what it takes).

It seems it will happen, so we shall see.

The figures bandied about for Antony are also incredibly high, given he's not pulled up any trees yet. People here were quick to say Richarlison was overpriced, but that's a pretty proven player and he's improved since Everton spent 40-45m on him. I just think Ajax are sniffing a huge opportunity here to rake in some cash, while they sold their top scorer to Dortmund for 31m euros.
 
Mainoldo said:
He’s €55m and the club have put it out their they would accept as little as €45. Which i said Romano already confirmed. That’s around £38m. Which is saving a lot.
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Romano and many sources say his release clause is 55/60 Euros which makes me think they haven't got a clue as it should just be one figure and even then we'll see if they would accept 10/15 million Euros less than the release clause when Utd come calling.

I'm willing to bet both payers would cost Utd roughly the same.
 
Bastian said:
He was speaking to Elko Born (his twitter here) who also said that prior to last season he wasn't really that highly thought of by the fans, who were still viewing him as "just a defender" and not a very technical player. Of course, we've seen his passing range, which would look great next to a fit Varane on the right side of him, but I still think the amount bandied about is incredibly high for someone who is not a sure bet, let alone in a physical league like the Prem.

I don't mind going for him, or Timber for that matter, but I think we need to be wary of overspending on individual players, especially if they're not that proven. I'm not arguing we should be signing Pau Torres instead as he also has question marks over him, definitely at a price of 50m euros (if that's what it takes).

It seems it will happen, so we shall see.

The figures bandied about for Antony are also incredibly high, given he's not pulled up any trees yet. People here were quick to say Richarlison was overpriced, but that's a pretty proven player and he's improved since Everton spent 40-45m on him. I just think Ajax are sniffing a huge opportunity here to rake in some cash, while they sold their top scorer to Dortmund for 31m euros.
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Agree on Anthony, I just feel that with Martinez the potential upside and influence on our style of play would be significant. Having a Centre back that is comfortable playing balls into the midfield or directly to the wingers instead of our lb and rb is very important in the style of play ETH is trying to create. It's probably why he'd be our first priority after FDJ and if we can only have one between Anthony/Martinez it will undoubtedly be Martinez.
 
Bastian said:
He was speaking to Elko Born (his twitter here) who also said that prior to last season he wasn't really that highly thought of by the fans, who were still viewing him as "just a defender" and not a very technical player. Of course, we've seen his passing range, which would look great next to a fit Varane on the right side of him, but I still think the amount bandied about is incredibly high for someone who is not a sure bet, let alone in a physical league like the Prem.

I don't mind going for him, or Timber for that matter, but I think we need to be wary of overspending on individual players, especially if they're not that proven. I'm not arguing we should be signing Pau Torres instead as he also has question marks over him, definitely at a price of 50m euros (if that's what it takes).

It seems it will happen, so we shall see.

The figures bandied about for Antony are also incredibly high, given he's not pulled up any trees yet. People here were quick to say Richarlison was overpriced, but that's a pretty proven player and he's improved since Everton spent 40-45m on him. I just think Ajax are sniffing a huge opportunity here to rake in some cash, while they sold their top scorer to Dortmund for 31m euros.
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But one crux of signing this player is our manager wants him because he knows him inside out, ability and personality wise. We are paying a premium for those intangibles that simply cannot be gauged for other players presented to him as alternatives that he may have turned down in favour of Martinez.

It's not just ability/talent matched off against another player or two, it's getting a specific player in who he has to do far less hands on coaching etc. with to get him up to speed with regard to the ideas and principles the manager has to imprint as succinctly as possible. This comes at a premium because Ajax don't want to sell and we're not going to just buy someone else because then all those intangibles are lost and we're left with a player who has far less time to be assimilated, who the manager doesn't know so can't be immediately dependent upon the player because he has to develop and nurture him and bide his time getting him trained up.

Once ten Hag is settled and has the squad playing how he likes with the personalities and character fully assessed, he can start looking at things from the perspective of talent vs talent and not have to seek out ex-players for his every need.

I agree with you about Antony, but the same thing might apply there as Martinez as in him being someone the manager trusts implicitly to come in and execute exactly how he wants him to. I don't agree with seeking him out for the kind of money that's being talked about, however. Martinez is different because the price point (50 flat) had been set ages ago and it was up to us to accept that or look elsewhere.
 
I’m confused, he’s going to be third choice right? Maguire is the captain and will remain it, Varane is the more experienced defender who we invested in last season.
 
reddev3 said:
Ruben Diaz cost City £65 million which was a similar situation to Martinez in the fact they were similar ages at the time of the transfer and they were the best defender from a top team outside of the top 5 rate leagues. Ake to Chelsea also seems to be going for £40+ million and Botman to Newcastle was £35 million.

All things considered £45 million for him is actually a fair price.

People expect Ajax to just give away their players for peanuts because they are from the dutch league but they have been playing at a really high level for a while now so the players that have been playing a that high level are going to command decent fees.
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Exactly. Very well said.
 
the_cliff said:
Agree on Anthony, I just feel that with Martinez the potential upside and influence on our style of play would be significant. Having a Centre back that is comfortable playing balls into the midfield or directly to the wingers instead of our lb and rb is very important in the style of play ETH is trying to create. It's probably why he'd be our first priority after FDJ and if we can only have one between Anthony/Martinez it will undoubtedly be Martinez.
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Fortitude said:
But one crux of signing this player is our manager wants him because he knows him inside out, ability and personality wise. We are paying a premium for those intangibles that simply cannot be gauged for other players presented to him as alternatives that he may have turned down in favour of Martinez.

It's not just ability/talent matched off against another player or two, it's getting a specific player in who he has to do far less hands on coaching etc. with to get him up to speed with regard to the ideas and principles the manager has to imprint as succinctly as possible. This comes at a premium because Ajax don't want to sell and we're not going to just buy someone else because then all those intangibles are lost and we're left with a player who has far less time to be assimilated, who the manager doesn't know so can't be immediately dependent upon the player because he has to develop and nurture him and bide his time getting him trained up.

Once ten Hag is settled and has the squad playing how he likes with the personalities and character fully assessed, he can start looking at things from the perspective of talent vs talent and not have to seek out ex-players for his every need.

I agree with you about Antony, but the same thing might apply there as Martinez as in him being someone the manager trusts implicitly to come in and execute exactly how he wants him to. I don't agree with seeking him out for the kind of money that's being talked about, however. Martinez is different because the price point (50 flat) had been set ages ago and it was up to us to accept that or look elsewhere.
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Yeah, I understand the reasoning. It's a fundamental position with being able to cope with possession from the GK (we can leave that for another thread) and further up the pitch. Interesting line from Lindelof about training that playing out from the back relies on much more than just the back four and midfielders, which sounds like everyone is being made responsible for everything. Anyhow, you're right, Martinez has likely enormous value for ETH in ensuring capability in a fundamental area of the pitch. The price point simply has to mean that he'll be an automatic starter, because you don't seek out that defender for his squad value or personality in the dressing room for +50m. My guess would be that he'll hope Varane is fit for the league matches and he'll play Maguire in the Europa and that one or two League Cup games before the World Cup, again, next to Martinez.

But Ajax are definitely capitalising on ETH's desperation to sign Martinez and the lesson here is we should have acted swiftly and looked to tie up either him or Timber on the back of securing ETH. Like I said, they sold Haller (their top scorer) for 31m euros. I cannot imagine if he'd still be there and we'd be sniffing around we'd be quoted that price. I mean the price they set for Antony really tells all. We are paying a typical United price here. And that will increase the pressure on any player we sign from Ajax.
 
Lay said:
I’m confused, he’s going to be third choice right? Maguire is the captain and will remain it, Varane is the more experienced defender who we invested in last season.
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If he signs to play CB the intention will be that he's first choice LCB, because neither Maguire nor Varane offer as much from that position in an ETH side as Martinez does.

Form-stricken Maguire and injury-troubled Varane will fight it out for the RCB slot alongside him. That competition for places is a good problem.

Though if Varane and Lindelof's injury issues continue then there may be chunks of the season where we don't actually have the depth in real terms that it appears we would on paper. There's a reason we had to resort to playing Bailly and Jones at times last season and the schedule is only more intense this year.
 
sullydnl said:
If he signs to play CB the intention will be that he's first choice LCB, because neither Maguire nor Varane offer as much from that position in an ETH side as Martinez does.

Form-stricken Maguire and injury-troubled Varane will fight it out for the RCB slot alongside him. That competition for places is a good problem.

Though if Varane and Lindelof's injury issues continue then there may be chunks of the season where we don't actually have the depth in real terms that it appears we would on paper. There's a reason we had to resort to playing Bailly and Jones at times last season and the schedule is only more intense this year.
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Do you have concerns about his lack of height, purely for his stature think he would do better at DM but then Erik don't fancy him playing there.
 
They're delusional if they think they could get upwards of 70m for him. He is a really good player with obvious limitations in his game. He has also never played in a top 5 league. 45-50M is a fair price, and at that price we are still paying them on the basis of his potential to develop into a 50m player. This isnt De Ligt who was 4-5 years younger than Martinez and you could see he was a player who could one day become the best defender in the world.

It all comes down to potential, thats what you pay these inflated prices for, and I cant ever see Martinez being worth 75-90m.
 
Forget about the Ajax fans and board fantasies. Antony and Martinez will both cost less next season, Timber too for that matter.
 
I don't think Maguire being captain would automatically means he'll start every match.
I think it would sends a good message to the team that ten Hag could even dropped the captain if he's not playing well.
 
reelworld said:
I don't think Maguire being captain would automatically means he'll start every match.
I think it would sends a good message to the team that ten Hag could even dropped the captain if he's not playing well.
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him playing every week would be an exceptional bad message, the problem however is the lack of plausible alternatives. Looking for leaders in the team that are going to play and they just aren't there, assuming CR7 isn't going to be there. In a perfect world someone like Rashford would have been a long term pick, but the performances just don't justify it.
 
If they insist on 55M then we need to structure the deal such that most of the money is paid at the back-end of 5 years. That's the only way this transfer fee makes any sense.
 
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Unless he will be utilized as a DM this transfer seems mad to me at that price given that he has no top league experience and is very small for CB in the context of EPL needs.
 
Maybe I’m reading too much into this but Ten Hagg said he’s looking to strengthen midfield and attack. We’ve been linked with Martinez, De Jong, Eriksen, Antony.

Does this suggest he sees Martinez as midfield, specifically a CDM?
 
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