Lisandro Martinez | Signs for United

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Trex said:
Its obvious or its your assumption?
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A bit of both to be honest. I assume that's what the plan is, as it seems pretty obvious and the most logical outcome. The signing of Eriksen is being seriously downplayed by the media and I think part of it is because they see him as merely a Lingard/Mata replacement and as a Bruno back up. I think what they will find is that we have signed something much more than that. It really is a terrific signing, but it is essential that we sign De Jong to complete the set.
 
Remember the geese said:
A bit of both to be honest. I assume that's what the plan is, as it seems pretty obvious and the most logical outcome. The signing of Eriksen is being seriously downplayed in the media and I think part of it is because they see him as merely a Lingard/Mata replacement and a Bruno back up. I think what they will find is that we signed something much more than that. It really is a terrific signing, but it is essential that we sign De Jong to complete the set.
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I would really like the idea of a Eriksen-Frenkie midfield, but in reality I'm not so sure that would work out well, every midfield in top level football tend to have at least one water carrier.
 
Trex said:
I would really like the idea of a Eriksen-Frenkie midfield, but in reality I'm not so sure that would work out well, every midfield in top level football tend to have at least one water carrier.
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I think the trick is in how the team sets up. Under Ole or Ralf, that pairing would get ripped to shreds. However, with the system that ten Hag will deploy, I believe it will work a treat in the majority of games. From what I have seen in the past, ten Hag has opted to partner De Jong with a creative player, rather than a pure destroyer. This will basically be a souped-up version of his Ajax 18/19 midfield. There is always the option of bringing Fred into the fold for certain games, to compliment De Jong and Eriksen.
 
Remember the geese said:
I think the trick is in how the team sets up. Under Ole or Ralf, that pairing would get ripped to shreds. However, with the system that ten Hag will deploy, I believe it will work a treat in the majority of games. From what I have seen in the past, ten Hag has opted to partner De Jong with a creative player, rather than a pure destroyer. This will basically be a souped-up version of his Ajax 18/19 midfield. There is always the option of bringing Fred into the fold for certain games, to compliment De Jong and Eriksen.
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Yes I understand the concept of Ajax 18/19 team, and I want to see that midfield as much as you but I'm not so sure it feasible.
I think from our game against Liverpool on Tuesday we'll begin to decode ETH ideas and set up.
 
Not a bad feat marking Haaland and Nunez out of games. He can also play in DM which is a good thing.
 
Strootman's Finger said:
look, I am an Ajax fan, I am a Dutch-Canadian, but I don't follow them as closely as United because Eredivisie is basically not available, whatsoever, in Canada, but I have a lot of love for Ajax.

I never said Ajax should just hand over any player, or give them cheap, I said a reasonable price. 50 mil euros fora 24 year old Eredivisie CB is way over the top, far more than reasonable. Yes he went for Timber, first target, Timber backed out, he went for a second, Martinez, and wants a third, Antony, knowing that Martinez is the only other one they are actually going for anymore. Do you really think it's unexpected, or too much, for a manager to take two players from his former club? That's pretty much the minimum I would expect, and Ajax had to expect it, I am sure he even had discussions with VDS about players he might potentially take. Maybe those aren't the first players Ajax wanted to sell, but unless Timber changed his mind and now plans to sign an extension, Ajax were actually willing to sell him because next summer he would defintely be sold and only have a year left on his contract because he wasn't planning to sign any extension. Apparently there was also an openness to selling Antony, in fear of repeating the Neres situation, where they didn't sell him at peak value in 2019. And again, 70/80 mil euros for Antony is way over the top for a 22 year old winger from the Eredivisie.

After the last 5 years, and all the success Ten Hag brought, Ajax fans should have a little more tolerance and not turn on him because he wants to bring two players with him. And I don't think at any point United has offered anything that would be considered an inappropriate or insulting offer, they offered 15 mil pounds more than Arsenal's first offer for Martinez.
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Why should Ajax sell him for a reasonable price, when Ajax has specifically said this player is not for sale? This players has just signed a new extended contract less than a year ago. Ajax wants an OTT price because this was the player of the year and Ajax had no intention of selling him. There's no reason to sell him for a reasonable price. Moreover, Newcastle United has just bought Sven Botman for €40m and he was moved from Ajax to Lille because he wasn't good enough (third choice LCB behind Martinez and Blind). If Botman is valued at €40m then 50-60m for Martinez isn't that outrageous at all. Chelsea's signing Ake from the City bench for about the same amount. Martinez isn't more unproven than Ake. Actually the €50-60m is quite realistic compared to other CB's that are being transferred, especially when taking into account that Ajax don't want to sell this player and he has a three year contract left.

It's not respectful for a manager to go after the players of his former club when the club has mentioned specifically that it does not want to sell these players. He could've interfered in Gravenberch going to Munich. Ajax would have been happy to work with him. If Timber would have made the choice to go, then Ajax would have worked with him (at that point Ajax had not sold Haller yet and also Timber has only a 2 year deal left. Ajax would have been more reasonable to work with. But Antony and Martinez have a 3 year deal left. Ajax wants to keep some key players as well. So then it would be more respectful if the former manager respected his old club's wishes instead of unsettling all these players. And as mentioned, if then you still feel you really need those players then the least respect you can show is pay up the fee wanted and not drag out the negotiations and unsettle the players in the process. This is what annoys at least a part of the fanbase.

Last but not least you're making a lot of assumptions which are based on nothing. Especially regarding Antony there are absolutely no reliable reports on Ajax being open to sell him. Antony is a future star that we want to see shining on our own team first before we sell him. Ajax absolutely don't want to sell him. 70/80M is indeed OTT, but it's going to take an OTT fee to get Ajax to sell it's future star against it's wishes. That's whe way it is and Ajax is completely in it's right.
 
Trex said:
Yes I understand the concept of Ajax 18/19 team, and I want to see that midfield as much as you but I'm not so sure it feasible.
I think from our game against Liverpool on Tuesday we'll begin to decode ETH ideas and set up.
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Time will tell, I guess. It's all very exciting. Watching on, on Tuesday and looking optimistically for the first signs of change. Hopefully we can speed up our evolution with some more signings soon. Martinez, being one.
 
Daslogisch said:
Why should Ajax sell him for a reasonable price, when Ajax has specifically said this player is not for sale? This players has just signed a new extended contract less than a year ago. Ajax wants an OTT price because this was the player of the year and Ajax had no intention of selling him. There's no reason to sell him for a reasonable price. Moreover, Newcastle United has just bought Sven Botman for €40m and he was moved from Ajax to Lille because he wasn't good enough (third choice LCB behind Martinez and Blind). If Botman is valued at €40m then 50-60m for Martinez isn't that outrageous at all. Chelsea's signing Ake from the City bench for about the same amount. Martinez isn't more unproven than Ake. Actually the €50-60m is quite realistic compared to other CB's that are being transferred, especially when taking into account that Ajax don't want to sell this player and he has a three year contract left.

It's not respectful for a manager to go after the players of his former club when the club has mentioned specifically that it does not want to sell these players. He could've interfered in Gravenberch going to Munich. Ajax would have been happy to work with him. If Timber would have made the choice to go, then Ajax would have worked with him (at that point Ajax had not sold Haller yet and also Timber has only a 2 year deal left. Ajax would have been more reasonable to work with. But Antony and Martinez have a 3 year deal left. Ajax wants to keep some key players as well. So then it would be more respectful if the former manager respected his old club's wishes instead of unsettling all these players. And as mentioned, if then you still feel you really need those players then the least respect you can show is pay up the fee wanted and not drag out the negotiations and unsettle the players in the process. This is what annoys at least a part of the fanbase.

Last but not least you're making a lot of assumptions which are based on nothing. Especially regarding Antony there are absolutely no reliable reports on Ajax being open to sell him. Antony is a future star that we want to see shining on our own team first before we sell him. Ajax absolutely don't want to sell him. 70/80M is indeed OTT, but it's going to take an OTT fee to get Ajax to sell it's future star against it's wishes. That's whe way it is and Ajax is completely in it's right.
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No argument from me.
If those are the fees that Ajax want then let some other mug pay them
 
Remember the geese said:
Time will tell, I guess. It's all very exciting. Watching on, on Tuesday and looking optimistically for the first signs of change. Hopefully we can speed up our evolution with some more signings soon. Martinez, being one.
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Hoping to see VDB show some form then!
 
According to the MEN today, we have agreed personal terms with Antony and Martinez. It's now down to the clubs. Dunno how trustworthy the MEN is
 
Remember the geese said:
Yeah, I'm curious to see how he gets on this season. Will be interesting to see how his potential battle with Bruno goes, or even if both can play in the same lineup.
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If he can't perform under Erik then he needs to buy a one way flight back to Holland.
 
trevor newnham said:
According to the MEN today, we have agreed personal terms with Antony and Martinez. It's now down to the clubs. Dunno how trustworthy the MEN is
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These stories are nonsense though. Of course we will be able to agree personal terms with these types of players. They aren't exactly world class are they? It's hardly going out on a limb is it?
 
Yeah I honestly couldn’t give a crap about agreeing terms with either player. Means nowt if we can agree fee with club. Terms for these types of players will never be out of our wage budget.
 
James35 said:
Yeah I honestly couldn’t give a crap about agreeing terms with either player. Means nowt if we can agree fee with club. Terms for these types of players will never be out of our wage budget.
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have we ever not agreed terms with a player, causing the deal to fall through?

it's easy to agree terms when you spunk as much on wages as we do
 
Jev said:
Really can't make sense of this transfer unless we've given up Maguire, in which case we should sell him. We have a very decent no. 3 in Lindelöf and if we need more bodies why not just keep Bailly?

Makes zero sense to me to spend time and a lot of money chasing a new third-choice CB when our literally only striker is leaving and we were short up front to begin with.
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I said this two months ago. I'd have prioritised a CDM, CM, Striker, right sided FWD and RB over a CB this summer. 6th on our list of priorities imo. We just signed Varane last season ffs. A good CDM would help the defence massively.

What's really strange is of our actual signings( I'm including Eriksen) we have signed our 7th and 8th priorities imo. We don't half do things arseways at this club.

Now maybe Ten Hag plans to utilise Martinez as a CDM. If he does then that would make a bit more sense buy still a lot of money to spend on a player who doesn't even specialise as a CDM.
 
James35 said:
Yeah I honestly couldn’t give a crap about agreeing terms with either player. Means nowt if we can agree fee with club. Terms for these types of players will never be out of our wage budget.
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What? there’s 2 months in the window left to agree a fee. No point chasing players who don’t want to leave.

Thank feck you aren’t involved in negotiations.

Everyone is so impatient.
 
Number TwentyFive said:
Ake has 120+ matches in the Premier League, Martinez has none. How come Ake isn't more proven than Martinez?
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Is it a good type of proven though? As far as I can see Ake was a fairly run of the mill defender and I was hugely surprised City bought him. Unsurprisingly he has made no impact.

At least Martinez is unexposed at PL level. He could be bad, mediocre or good and obviously we're backing the manager's case that he'll be the latter. That's probably preferable to knowing the player is totally average.
 
I can't understand why people are shocked that Ajax are inflating prices when they've already lost 3 key players in one window.
 
Frank Grimes said:
I said this two months ago. I'd have prioritised a CDM, CM, Striker, right sided FWD and RB over a CB this summer. 6th on our list of priorities imo. We just signed Varane last season ffs. A good CDM would help the defence massively.

What's really strange is of our actual signings( I'm including Eriksen) we have signed our 7th and 8th priorities imo. We don't half do things arseways at this club.

Now maybe Ten Hag plans to utilise Martinez as a CDM. If he does then that would make a bit more sense buy still a lot of money to spend on a player who doesn't even specialise as a CDM.
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Yeah, I agree with that list. It's pretty strange to be honest.
 
Jev said:
Yeah, I agree with that list. It's pretty strange to be honest.
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The manager obviously see things differently from most of us. I can understand why, but the amount Ajax are asking for a Blind/Rojo-type player might price us out, which is obviously their intention, seeing how they have reneged on their initial requested amount.
 
Trex said:
I would really like the idea of a Eriksen-Frenkie midfield, but in reality I'm not so sure that would work out well, every midfield in top level football tend to have at least one water carrier.
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This forum has a hard on for a DM. I don’t get it.
 
Pronewbie said:
How does Pau Torres compare?
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Better with his short passing but very passive, all of our centre backs besides Bailly (I refuse to include Jones and Tuanzebe) are people who prefer being partnered next to an aggressive centre back who attacks the ball. We would be better off in terms of balance with Martinez next to Varane.
 
golden_blunder said:
Surely the eye test will show you that Martinez is a better player
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Yep the eye test will answer that when Martinez actually has played in the Premier League until he has done that no one can be sure that he will be a better Premier Legaue defender than Ake.
 
Number TwentyFive said:
Yep the eye test will answer that when Martinez actually has played in the Premier League until he has done that no one can be sure that he will be a better Premier Legaue defender than Ake.
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True no guarantees with any player.
On a different note I can’t understand how ake generates such transfer fees
 
golden_blunder said:
This forum has a hard on for a DM. I don’t get it.
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Just not giving the ball away so much and and movement to giving each other passing options will negate most of the issues last season.

I wouldn’t say no to one but playing in a system that encourages this and structure around positioning will make the players look better…ever the shit one’s that everyone hates (I think that’s everyone in the squad).
 
dubplate warrior said:
Better with his short passing but very passive, all of our centre backs besides Bailly (I refuse to include Jones and Tuanzebe) are people who prefer being partnered next to an aggressive centre back who attacks the ball. We would be better off in terms of balance with Martinez next to Varane.
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Thanks.
 
GJNJ said:
Just not giving the ball away so much and and movement to giving each other passing options will negate most of the issues last season.

I wouldn’t say no to one but playing in a system that encourages this and structure around positioning will make the players look better…ever the shit one’s that everyone hates (I think that’s everyone in the squad).
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Exactly, I think we can find a way to play without the limitations of a DM. My assumption is that that’s how EtH will approach it
 
golden_blunder said:
Exactly, I think we can find a way to play without the limitations of a DM. My assumption is that that’s how EtH will approach it
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Yeah I agree with you. No doubt in my mind FDJ will play CDM. And he'll excel at it too.
Physicality is overrated. Great technique wins over brute force every time
 
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