Definitely.
6
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 45
- Clean sheets
- 20
- Goals
- 1
- Assists
- 0
- Yellow cards
- 10
- Status
In Premier league or world football?
The CB position has changed a lot over the years. If Martinez was playing 10-15 years ago then his weaknesses would be more exposed, but in todays game his strengths far outweigh his apparent weaknesses.
Yes, plenty
nothing to do with being a Brexiteer. That was a rejection of the EU. There are conservatives who voted to remain
They are working really hard to help Harry get back on the pitch.
I get the feeling Talksport know they’ve got a horde of gullible United fans listening to them, who give them interactions and theyre not too bright to realise they’re being strung along, especially if they’re calling into the show spending money.
Because there’s no way someone can say with a straight face that someone’s ultimately going to fail at a club based on four games.
Because there’s no way someone can say with a straight face that someone’s ultimately going to fail at a club based on four games.
Nothing particularly wrong with Souness having that opinion. The probability is that he won't be a success as a CB in the PL at that height but let's hope he proves him (and me) wrong.
Souness has got one gullible fan people.
What?
Of course there is and constantly viewing all things Utd related through your negative lens blinds you to it.
He’s literally one of the best ball playing CBs in Europe yet there’s nothing he’s special at? That’s where the benefit of the doubt deserts him
Cannavaro and Puyol did alright in world cups and CL finals.
Mascherano and Fernandinho did pretty good jobs at centre back in the Prem.
Mascherano and Fernandinho did pretty good jobs at centre back in the Prem.
Probability? It's not about playing guessing games based on preconceived ideas. It's about doing his research on the individual in question and using his own eyes.
The ball playing, yeah he's wrong on that part.
Narrative had been set after the Brentford game, if Martinez keeps proving them wrong, they'll just double down
I think on Skysports they said that he has one of the best won header ratio amongst all CBs since the start of the season
The fact the you agree and don't see nothing wrong with what he said. Martinez has been man of the match for two games straight, if anything you should be more positive.
Height isn’t everything. I’ve watched 6ft6 Jannik Vestergaard looks awful aerially for Leicester.
Ball playing.
And while admittedly a small number of games here (though Ajax fans have said the same for his time there)… tackling, and headers, and attitude.
But APART from that, he’s got nothing special.
To be honest, if Souness rated one of our players, THEN I’d be worried.
Nothing 'gullible' about it, he will have bigger challenges that he'll have to overcome in the season. He was good on Monday, the Southampton CBs were the more impressive on the pitch on Saturday in my opinion.
I've said I think Casimiro will help limit him being exposed.
If he fails, it won't necessarily be because of his height. As many have pointed out, there have been previous phenomenally successful centre-halves who played at a time football was even more physical (with less referee intervention).
who, where
If he does fail it's the most likely reason. I have my doubts, mainly because of set pieces and that the rest our line up doesn't make up for it but I hope I'm wrong.
Because he can't move his feet, position himself correctly and loses all his height advantages because of that. Martinez had good mobility/agility, gets into position early but there are times when he knows he can't win the ball so makes the choice not to challenge, which shows a good brain but also makes those aerial challenges stats rather misleading.
Lot more comfortable with him now they have moved to the logical partnership with Varane, and Ten Hag has realized that Eriksen is not an option in the deepest role as a front screen.
I think he has lost just one so far in the game against Liverpool. Not entirely sure but I think he lost one to Gross against Brighton and the one against Mee wasn't considered either. Not sure why though
Carragher and Souness will bring this up at every possible opportunity.
He loves Lukaku and rates Ronaldo. Bruno when he first came.
Both Cannavaro and Puyol did "ok" even thought they were not the biggest of defenders?
Can’t wait until he keeps the premier leagues greatest ever striker Erling Haaland under lock and key for ninety minutes and the ‘experts’ are forced to eat their words.
The caf loves a good virtue signal. My dad isn't a brexiteer and called Lisandro a midget, so is he now xenophobic? He's also not white!
So if you think the wee lad Martinez is too small for the Premier League that means you voted Brexit?
But that’s your negative opinion. Not only was Martinez better than their two he was better than all other 21 after his MOTM award
In Lucy Ward's opinion. I can think for myself.
I'm not going to speak for the original poster but I think a lot of people confuse simple prejudice for racism or xenophobia. It's still prejudice even when the pre-judgement is based on something other than race, ethnicity or nationality.
Souness, like most other people, is very obviously guilty of being prejudicial of Martinez based on his height. It's a perfect example, the literal textbook definition of prejudice, because he clearly just looked at Martinez's height and immediately concluded that he can't be a centre back. I don't make a habit of listening to much of what Souness has to say because he seems like a prick, but has he ever had a similar distaste for any player other than Pogba for similar reasons, or was it just Pogba? I agree that people should be given the benefit of the doubt but that doesn't mean just dismissing claims of xenophobia or racism out of hand without any kind of analysis or careful examination of the data.
All of the TV pundits who started out by saying Martinez can't possibly play in the PL are now fully invested in this position, so they're going to desperately cling to whatever they can to prove themselves right. They will keep pointing at teams targeting him and insist this is proof he's bad, despite him handling it nearly flawlessly. We could keep a clean sheet for 4 straight games with clubs targeting the left side of the defence with long balls, never getting a chance out of it, but even the best players slip up occasionally and when this happens it will be taken as ironclad proof that they were 100% correct. It has basically already happened with that 3rd Brentford goal, which had nothing to do with how tall he was and arguably wasn't really his fault anyways.
By the way this is good illustration of the perniciousness of bias and prejudice. It doesn't seem to matter how well Martinez does or how effective he is as a CB, some people will just refuse to believe he's anything but terrible. Now imagine someone facing this not as a CB in the premier league when they've already signed a very lucrative guaranteed contract after having been a professional for a number of years, but when they're applying to schools, universities, or jobs starting with minimal resources. It's a very sobering thought.
Its going to be a very interesting duel...2 good additions to the league as well.
Can't argue with any of that. I think I am so used to brexit/brexiteer being used, especially in online discourse, as a shorthand for ignorant/racist/xenophobia, and given the previous history of many of Souness's issues with Pogba being dismissed using similar terms I made a jump, which of course may have been incorrect.
As much as the game has changed in certain ways Souness is still a guy who was a world class footballer and managed good clubs in multiple countries, to varying degrees of success. He knows the game, and his concerns over Martinez are not absurd, if he maintains them despite Lisandro proving them baseless then have at him.
He has not been flawless though, that sitter Bella-Kothcap missed was from a Southampton player beating Lisandro to a flick on, and he had some uncomfortable moments against Adams at times. Done an awful lot more good than bad though, his temperament and competiveness has been sorely missing from this team, proactive defending with quality on the ball will bring more value then the moments he does get overpowered.
All this nonsense will stop when Maguire regains his place. This is World Cup year and Maguire cannot be on the bench.
It was always his position that was under threat, like ETH already said Varane is ahead of them all. Maguire is not his 80m defender and was going to get benched for his new signing.
I’ve always believed it’s not our responsibility to house players because they are England internationals. It’s the responsibility of the players to earn the right to play for us. So, their friends, media and opposition should stay out of our business. They spend all this energy destabilising us just to see England stars become regulars and the go on to scapegoat the same player when England fail.
Hopefully ETH sticks with what he feels is best for United and let England figure it’s own shit out.
It was always his position that was under threat, like ETH already said Varane is ahead of them all. Maguire is not his 80m defender and was going to get benched for his new signing.
I’ve always believed it’s not our responsibility to house players because they are England internationals. It’s the responsibility of the players to earn the right to play for us. So, their friends, media and opposition should stay out of our business. They spend all this energy destabilising us just to see England stars become regulars and the go on to scapegoat the same player when England fail.
Hopefully ETH sticks with what he feels is best for United and let England figure it’s own shit out.
Maguire wont find his way in until Varane gets injured I reckon. Perhaps he will start a congested fixture here or there, and play in some cups.
Oh I agree…
Just pointing out a trend thats always visible when we have a player dislodge or potentially better than an England international in our squad.
I'm just pointing out Souness has a very obvious bias here. He may be a legendary footballer but he's still a human being and subject to the same cognitive pitfalls as the rest of us. Don't hold your breath on the criticism stopping. I'd be more willing to accept it if it wasn't solely based around his height. Do you think Souness would be singing the same tune had Martinez put in the exact same performances while being 2 inches taller? I don't. I don't think there's anything Martinez could have done better to convince his critics.
It's also worth noting that the main shit-stirrers have been Souness and Carragher. Neville and other non-Liverpool pundits have asked the question, but they don't seem to be quite as insistent that Lisandro is a disaster waiting to happen. I think we both agree that Martinez hasn't looked like a player who's been very lucky not to have been responsible for several goals, and that despite being heavily targeted at several times during all of his appearances he has held up as well as basically any CB in the PL would. Souness and the other critics are either deliberately ignoring this data or using the targets to conclude that Lisandro has been ineffective, despite basically only one scoring chance and zero goals resulting from those targets over 4 matches. He gave up a chance last week, fine. Even world class defenders will do that from time to time. We agree that flawlessness is not the required standard, even if it's the required goal.
- Status