Lionel Messi

Kinsella said:
If you want to claim Ronaldo is the greater player then that's fine, and an argument can certainly be constructed to bolster that claim.
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Clearly Messi is the superior footballer, that is quite obvious. But I don't think this claim has any merit either.

If Ronaldo is the 'greater' footballer (a spurious notion in the first place, in my opinion) then why has Messi completely dominated the Spanish league while they were both in it? Why has Messi won the Spanish Player of the Year, season after season, while Ronaldo won it once? Why has Messi always come top of statistical ratings of La Liga games, literally every season? Why has Messi outperformed Ronaldo in the El Clasico games? Why have Barcelona had a much better record than Real Madrid over this period in the El Clasio games? Why has Ronaldo been on the losing side in three of the four Champions League games that he's played against Messi, and never been on the winning team?

The only case for Ronaldo being a greater footballer is that Real Madrid have won the Champions League a lot recently, and Portugal won the Euros. Undoubtedly, Ronaldo played a major part in the former, and some part in the latter, but he has never been as instrumental for his teams as Messi has. And this doesn't do enough to reverse Messi's total dominance of domestic football, where the two have been in direct competition.

Almost without exception when they've been in direct competition, Messi has come out on top.

Hilariously enough, the case that some deluded individuals will make in case of Ronaldo is that Messi only did all of those things in the italicised paragraph because he was playing for Barcelona, thereby taking credit away from Messi, despite the fact that his performances have been a constant source of brilliance in now three generations of Barcelona teams - from Xaviesta, through MSN, to the current side. But then they'll also give Ronaldo total credit for winning the CL, and handwave arguments that his team played a big role in this.

So, according to them, when Messi wins something it's due to his team. When Messi doesn't win something, it's always his fault. When Ronaldo wins something he deserves 100% credit. And when Ronaldo doesn't win something there was nothing he could do about it because Messi was in a better team.

It's this bizarre worldview where Messi never deserves credit for anything, despite being the most influential footballer in the world in most people's opinion, as he effectively floats around in the dead sea while his team win everything for him. Whereas Ronaldo, according to people like Rio Ferdinand just a goal-hanger now, deserves sole credit for everything that he wins, and when he doesn't win something it's always because Messi's team won it for him.
 
wub1234 said:
Clearly Messi is the superior footballer, that is quite obvious.
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Agreed. I'd say it's blatantly obvious though, as opposed to quite.

wub1234 said:
But I don't think this claim has any merit either.
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I disagree with this however, not because I think Ronaldo is the greater player but because greatness involves more factors than ability alone.

An argument can be constructed that Ronaldo is the greater of the two. Now it may be heavily dependant on the last 3 or 4 seasons when he has been past his prime as an individual player but it exists nonetheless. That, and his goalscoring record of course, have elevated him above other more talented great players in the pantheon already in my view.
 
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Kinsella said:
Agreed. I'd say it's blatantly obvious, rather than quite, too.



I disagree with this though, not because I think Ronaldo is the greater player but because greatness involves more factors than ability alone.

An argument can be constructed that Ronaldo is the greater of the two. Now it may be heavily dependant on the last 3 or 4 seasons when he has been past his prime as an individual player but it exists nonetheless. That, and his goalscoring record of course, have elevated him above other more talented great players in the pantheon already in my view.
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Naaah, Salah is a more talented player than a Ronaldo. Messi is more complete, talented, gifted, enjoyable, determinant player. IMHO
 
BarcaSpurs said:
no chance of being a top 3. his standards are pretty ridiculously high. interesting topic though
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My top 3 of Messi's goals. In no particular order.

1- Vs Athletic Bilbao for the CdR final: An incredible display of technique, ability, drive. Beyond ridiculous.





2 - Vs Arsenal, a goal that sums up Messi's genius. A little touch to leave the keeper out of chances and then a volley to the net. All of this in 0,5 seconds with Almunia coming like a train attacking the ball




3- Vs Espanyol back in 2012. For me this goal is also good to explain how good Messi is: The oriented control while running with the perfect touch to leave the ball ready and then the perfect definition right to the corner, kissing the post. Perfect.

 
Cal? said:
When it happens occasionally, you can put it down to form, team performance, etc.

When someone has the better year more often than not, the most reasonable conclusion is that said player is better.

Occam's razor
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You can't measure individual performances in a team sport, that's as absurd as it gets, that's why Steve Nash has 2 MVP's and 0 rings, and Kobe 1 MVP and 5 rings, your argument asumes biased conclusions as universal laws.

Occam's razor works both ways, the simplest solution that explains why you're in every Messi thread to sell your boy Cris is that you feel the need to claim a superiority that he never had. Despite constantly being reminded to not talk about the rivalry in certain threads, you always drag it back in.
 
Cal? said:
When it happens occasionally, you can put it down to form, team performance, etc.

When someone has the better year more often than not, the most reasonable conclusion is that said player is better.

Occam's razor
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I referred to individual abilities and criticized that people rate playeds on team performances and your argument is the prize awarded to the best player of the most successful team? A prize that has been won by Cannavaro while Ronaldinho, Henry and many others were in their primes?

I mean, I literally excluded team achievements from the equation and you name the one individualistic prize that correlates with team achievements like no other? That way opu won't convince anyone of your opinion.
 
Easily one of the best in the world and history. In saying that, Messi would struggle in a Man Utd team. :D
 
I wish Messi went to the prem. Would be awesome to watch him completely destroy all these hard man defenders he could allegedly never beat.

He'd fit in quite wel at city. Not that I want him to join city, for obvious reasons. (A city lover tag for one)
 
KirkDuyt said:
I wish Messi went to the prem. Would be awesome to watch him completely destroy all these hard man defenders he could allegedly never beat.

He'd fit in quite wel at city. Not that I want him to join city, for obvious reasons. (A city lover tag for one)
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He will never leave Barcelona. I fully expect him to do exactly what he has said he will do, which is play for Barcelona until his mid-to-late 30s, and then do a season or two in Argentina. I can't imagine Messi ever putting himself in a position where he could play against Barcelona, and I can't see him wanting to play in second-rate football in the US for money.
 
wub1234 said:
He will never leave Barcelona. I fully expect him to do exactly what he has said he will do, which is play for Barcelona until his mid-to-late 30s, and then do a season or two in Argentina. I can't imagine Messi ever putting himself in a position where he could play against Barcelona, and I can't see him wanting to play in second-rate football in the US for money.
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I can't even see him going back to Argentina to play.
I'm sure he'll live in Spain for the rest of his life now. Probably gets treated more of a legend there than in Argentina.
 
Zehner said:
It's your opinion that he's underperformed. In mine he didn't. We can start the whole thing all over again and repeat all the arguments we exchanged a hundred times already or you just accept that we see things different to you and stop enforcing this discussion on everyone who dares to rate Messi higher than your idol.



You do realize that Messi started the season completely on fire and it still took more than one month before anyone opened a Messi thread? You do realize that nobody in here brought the Messi v. Ronaldo discussion into the Cristiano thread although there was plenty to criticize in his first Juve games while you directly intervened when someone called Messi the GOAT?

Truth is you simply can't bear that people do not think that your idol is the best of his generation and that's why you always intervene when someone praises Messi. Just accept that we see football differently and maybe have other criteria we value in comparing players than you. For me, you are superficial and have a very basic understanding of football, to you I put too much emphasis on inefficient and secondary abilities like dribbling or passing and allow them to distract me from the actually important things which is scoring goals in big occasions. We won't get to an agreement so what's the point? It irks me too if someone calls Cristiano GOAT in his thread but I try to ignore it since there's a place for this discussion. It is quite ironic that you are the one who is so obsessed with this debate that he can't resist and yet you are also the one criticizing that "Messi fans" highlight everything he does. Just let it go.
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This, preety much.
 
KirkDuyt said:
I wish Messi went to the prem. Would be awesome to watch him completely destroy all these hard man defenders he could allegedly never beat.

He'd fit in quite wel at city. Not that I want him to join city, for obvious reasons. (A city lover tag for one)
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We've seen him destroy the best Prem defenses in the Champions League.

He'd dominate the Prem.
 
His passing at times :eek::drool:

Best creative/final 3rd passer in the world. Simply unmatched.
 
Easily the best player in the world. Has been since 08/09. Almost certainly the greatest of all time.
 
Sally Cinnamon said:
Easily the best player in the world. Has been since 08/09. Almost certainly the greatest of all time.
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He's undoubtedly the greatest of all time. He combines the best attributes of several all-time great players and even raises the bar on a few of them. There's never been a more complete attacking player.
 
Rakitics goal today, was Barcelonas 6 hundreth goal in their european tournament history, which means that messi scored i sixth of every barcelona goal in europe

quite sumthin
 
GOAT.
What is quite scary is that as good as he is now (still the best imo), he is far below the level he was at his best(2010-2014).
 
It’s insane we’re about to go into year 2019 and he’s still producing such performances..
 
It's nice to show up in the group games but it's been a while since we've seen him bossing big knockout games in the CL. Let's see if he can drag Barca to the final.
 
Adisa said:
GOAT.
What is quite scary is that as good as he is now (still the best imo), he is far below the level he was at his best(2010-2014).
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He was incredible in 2014-2015.

His 2nd best season imo
 
You could see from the first minute he was up for it tonight. Best individual performance by a mile this season so far.
 
VorZakone said:
It's nice to show up in the group games but it's been a while since we've seen him bossing big knockout games in the CL. Let's see if he can drag Barca to the final.
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You mean literally "two games" ago when he destroyed Chelsea in the past edition?
 
Just imperious. Better than anyone else playing at the moment. A joy to watch.
 
A moment from today's game where he has 4 spurs players surrounding him and he finds a small gap and plays a little dink.

Sometimes when you watch him in this form its just amazing.
 
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