Lionel Messi

wub1234 said:
I've never seen a player like that before, and I doubt I'll see one again. If football continues for several thousand years then we can't imagine what the game will be like in the year 5000, but it'll take that sort of period, in my opinion, certainly a period of centuries for someone else to come along like Messi.

Because as big as football is now, and despite the hundreds of millions and possibly billions that play the game, there isn't anyone like him now. Not even ****ing close!

I would say the same thing about Ronnie O' Sullivan BTW. Don't know if people here watch snooker, but the ability to play basically as well with your left hand as your right is almost impossible to learn. No-one else has ever been able to do it. You can sit there watching him all day, and be inspired by it, but try to go on a snooker table and actually do it.

Try gliding around a tennis court with the best players in the world, playing beautiful tennis, with effortless movement, with a one-handed backhand, when you're knocking on for 38. Won't happen again for quite some time, rest assured.

These people are just blessed with freakish genetic ability, and they will be irreplaceable.
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I don't disagree with a lot of what you're saying. But the premise here that these guys won't be bettered in decades -or centuries as you put it - is hugely unlikely. The commonality running across all three isn't just their freakish talent, but the fact they have peaked in the last 15 years or so. To me that suggests that people who have lived through this generation, been influenced by what they have seen, cannot conceive of anyone being better within their lifetimes. As Rob Smyth put it - 'the arrogance of modernity dictates that the best we have ever seen becomes the best that ever there was'. That's an internal bias that every generation is guilty of.
 
Gio said:
I don't disagree with a lot of what you're saying. But the premise here that these guys won't be bettered in decades -or centuries as you put it - is hugely unlikely. The commonality running across all three isn't just their freakish talent, but the fact they have peaked in the last 15 years or so. To me that suggests that people who have lived through this generation, been influenced by what they have seen, cannot conceive of anyone being better within their lifetimes. As Rob Smyth put it - 'the arrogance of modernity dictates that the best we have ever seen becomes the best that ever there was'. That's an internal bias that every generation is guilty of.
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I agree with that. People like to talk about once in a lifetime talents but in all honesty, I've yet to see such a case. Pele, Maradona, Messi and R9 were all in one lifetime and you could name everyone of them as the greatest talent ever.

Then again there's currently no player that looks like he could even get close to Messi. Not even Mbappe or Sancho have what it takes IMO.
 
Eventually there will be a player as physically blessed as someone like Adama Traore with Messi's talent and C. Ronaldo's dedication but the one thing I'd be surprised about is them staying as injury free as Messi over a 15 year span. Obviously Messi was injury prone in his early years but it's insane how few injuries he's suffered for such an agile and fouled player. Often you see these incredibly blessed athletes like L. Ronaldo, Bale, Robben, Theo Walcott, O. Dembele plagued with muscle injuries so even if there was a player with a higher peak than Messi, it seems unlikely that they will be able to maintain for as long as Messi has.
 
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wub1234 said:
That's an interesting point, and there's no doubt that football has changed and is changing as we all learn more about the best way to play it. This has been quite evident in England, where the current England team, which is full of young players, in my estimation just understands the game better than previous teams. It's taken decades for it to sink in that our approach to the game is completely wrong, but after generations of getting it wrong over and over again now a less talented team is finally getting it right.

However...I would doubt that simply watching Messi's performances, while you can learn from them, is going to enable someone to do what he does from a technical perspective. For example, look at the best young players in the world today. So you might be looking at Mbappe as being the absolute best. Can you see him being the best passer, dribbler and goalscorer in the world? He's a brilliant player, but he's a much more conventional winger, with a more limited game than Messi. He's like a slightly better Sterling, who is another one of the best young players in the world, but is he even remotely like Messi? No.

Similarly, if you look at The Guardian top 100 players in the world:

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...male-footballers-in-the-world-2018-nos-100-71

The top midfielders are Modric, de Bruyne, Kante, Rakitic and Pogba. I would definitely argue that Messi creates more than any of them, and is better at passing than any of them. But even if they're on roughly the same level at passing and creativity, can any of them go past players like Messi? Does any of them score goals like Messi? Modric has scored 6 in his last 86 appearances for Real Madrid, de Bruyne has scored 17 in his last 75, Kante has scored 7 in 133 games in the PL, Rakitic has scored 9 in last 99 games, and Pogba 20 in his last 76 games.

Or if you look at the top forwards...Ronaldo, Suarez, Kane, Griezmann, Aguero...do any of them have the technical ability and creativity of Messi? Absolutely not. And not only that...they don't score as many goals as him!

The nearest players to Messi, in my view, would be players like Hazard and Salah, but even then you wouldn't say either of them was anywhere near as good at passing as Messi, and nor do they score as many goals. Arguably they're not as good at dribbling as Messi either, but their skillset is somewhat comparable to him, it's just nowhere near the same level.

So based on that, and also based on my observation of football over several decades, I don't think the successor to Messi's crown is going to come along that easily. When he's gone, someone else will become the best player in the world, but I doubt on the evidence that I've seen that they will score 50 goals+ per season, be capable of unbelievable individual brilliance, and be as good at passing, and probably better, than any midfielder in the world.

I've never seen a player like that before, and I doubt I'll see one again. If football continues for several thousand years then we can't imagine what the game will be like in the year 5000, but it'll take that sort of period, in my opinion, certainly a period of centuries for someone else to come along like Messi.

Because as big as football is now, and despite the hundreds of millions and possibly billions that play the game, there isn't anyone like him now. Not even ****ing close!

I would say the same thing about Ronnie O' Sullivan BTW. Don't know if people here watch snooker, but the ability to play basically as well with your left hand as your right is almost impossible to learn. No-one else has ever been able to do it. You can sit there watching him all day, and be inspired by it, but try to go on a snooker table and actually do it.

Try gliding around a tennis court with the best players in the world, playing beautiful tennis, with effortless movement, with a one-handed backhand, when you're knocking on for 38. Won't happen again for quite some time, rest assured.

These people are just blessed with freakish genetic ability, and they will be irreplaceable.
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Super point. I agree 100%. I havent seen anyone remotely close. Wasnt old enough to see Maradona but i would say the only difference wasnt in skill set as i would say they were simular from watching youtube but to do it for 10/12 years in a row is spectacular. Never had a dip only injury stalled him
 
my opinion what makes messi above all others is not only his dribbling, finishing or passing, even when there is somebody comparing him with lets say how was mentioned Adama Traore physicality or Ronaldo's dedication combination in future, for me messi's best and most unique attribute is speed of his mind. He rarely does something wrong in pressure, small space with small time reacting. The way how he changes in his mind what to do in of split second is unique for me. Not to mention his special understanding of whole football. Im 27 right now, but dont im not sure if i will see in my lifetime more than 1 or 2 better players. You can learn technique with some talent, you can be genetically perfect, but that brain and footballing IQ is from another planet. Somwhere i read ordinary person can focus on 4 object movement at one time, top players can 6, ronaldo around 8, but messi 10.
 
wub1234 said:
That's an interesting point, and there's no doubt that football has changed and is changing as we all learn more about the best way to play it. This has been quite evident in England, where the current England team, which is full of young players, in my estimation just understands the game better than previous teams. It's taken decades for it to sink in that our approach to the game is completely wrong, but after generations of getting it wrong over and over again now a less talented team is finally getting it right.

However...I would doubt that simply watching Messi's performances, while you can learn from them, is going to enable someone to do what he does from a technical perspective. For example, look at the best young players in the world today. So you might be looking at Mbappe as being the absolute best. Can you see him being the best passer, dribbler and goalscorer in the world? He's a brilliant player, but he's a much more conventional winger, with a more limited game than Messi. He's like a slightly better Sterling, who is another one of the best young players in the world, but is he even remotely like Messi? No.

Similarly, if you look at The Guardian top 100 players in the world:

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...male-footballers-in-the-world-2018-nos-100-71

The top midfielders are Modric, de Bruyne, Kante, Rakitic and Pogba. I would definitely argue that Messi creates more than any of them, and is better at passing than any of them. But even if they're on roughly the same level at passing and creativity, can any of them go past players like Messi? Does any of them score goals like Messi? Modric has scored 6 in his last 86 appearances for Real Madrid, de Bruyne has scored 17 in his last 75, Kante has scored 7 in 133 games in the PL, Rakitic has scored 9 in last 99 games, and Pogba 20 in his last 76 games.

Or if you look at the top forwards...Ronaldo, Suarez, Kane, Griezmann, Aguero...do any of them have the technical ability and creativity of Messi? Absolutely not. And not only that...they don't score as many goals as him!

The nearest players to Messi, in my view, would be players like Hazard and Salah, but even then you wouldn't say either of them was anywhere near as good at passing as Messi, and nor do they score as many goals. Arguably they're not as good at dribbling as Messi either, but their skillset is somewhat comparable to him, it's just nowhere near the same level.

So based on that, and also based on my observation of football over several decades, I don't think the successor to Messi's crown is going to come along that easily. When he's gone, someone else will become the best player in the world, but I doubt on the evidence that I've seen that they will score 50 goals+ per season, be capable of unbelievable individual brilliance, and be as good at passing, and probably better, than any midfielder in the world.

I've never seen a player like that before, and I doubt I'll see one again. If football continues for several thousand years then we can't imagine what the game will be like in the year 5000, but it'll take that sort of period, in my opinion, certainly a period of centuries for someone else to come along like Messi.

Because as big as football is now, and despite the hundreds of millions and possibly billions that play the game, there isn't anyone like him now. Not even ****ing close!

I would say the same thing about Ronnie O' Sullivan BTW. Don't know if people here watch snooker, but the ability to play basically as well with your left hand as your right is almost impossible to learn. No-one else has ever been able to do it. You can sit there watching him all day, and be inspired by it, but try to go on a snooker table and actually do it.

Try gliding around a tennis court with the best players in the world, playing beautiful tennis, with effortless movement, with a one-handed backhand, when you're knocking on for 38. Won't happen again for quite some time, rest assured.

These people are just blessed with freakish genetic ability, and they will be irreplaceable.
Click to expand...

I think the package of Messi, with the combination of touch, dribbling, passing, vision, etc is going to be very hard to replace, but I think it will happen. As far as your point on Mbappe, no, I don't think he will be able to lead all stat categories like Messi is doing (although I wouldn't be that surprised if he managed it for one season in his career), but I am fairly confident he will be able to match CR7 and Messi's output as far as goals+assists over several seasons as he's already on pace for a 40+ goal season at 20. Now he has to show he can do it over many years, but I'm fairly confident he will and that already will be something many people throught would take a long time to happen because before those two, it was incredibly rare to even see it once, let alone over many years.

I remember hearing about how, for the longest time, the world record for the 100m dash remained unchallenged, until it was finally broken and since then it has been challenged and broken many times. Now it's an overly simplistic analogy to the point I'm trying to apply to football, but while the aesthetics of Messi's game along with his stat-stuffing impact might not come along exactly in the same manner, I have no doubts that someone will eventually be in that neighborhood. Your contention is very much specific to Messi and I think you're right in many ways, but on the broader point of having strings of 50+ goals season (something many think won't happen once those two retire), that I think will happen within the next few years because it's now out there in the broader subconscious that it can be done.

Could it take a century or more for another player like Messi to come along? Maybe you're right but let's just say I have a bit more optimism in mankind's ability to produce another Messi somewhere out there in the world, and while my point makes it sound as simple as just watching Messi will create another Messi, it's not what I'm actually saying but what I am saying is it does have an impact for youth players to know it's possible to put your game together into such a deadly package that has also statistical impact consistently over the years.

It's quite incredible how much kids are learning just by watching, I follow basketball and MMA closely, and it's incredible to see how the kids of today come out with so much of a skills package compared to their contemporaries, and the ability to learn online, to see others, and to practice it on your own is a huge advantage that didn't exist 10-15 years ago. While I disagree with your point that we'll never see another Messi, it's still up in the air whether you'll be right or wrong, but I'm definitely excited by the future prospects of the game and while I will miss CR7 and Messi, I don't see their retirement as the end of anything but rather the beginning of a new generation of players who grew up knowing it's possible to do what they've done.
 
dablem_10 said:
my opinion what makes messi above all others is not only his dribbling, finishing or passing, even when there is somebody comparing him with lets say how was mentioned Adama Traore physicality or Ronaldo's dedication combination in future, for me messi's best and most unique attribute is speed of his mind. He rarely does something wrong in pressure, small space with small time reacting. The way how he changes in his mind what to do in of split second is unique for me. Not to mention his special understanding of whole football. Im 27 right now, but dont im not sure if i will see in my lifetime more than 1 or 2 better players. You can learn technique with some talent, you can be genetically perfect, but that brain and footballing IQ is from another planet. Somwhere i read ordinary person can focus on 4 object movement at one time, top players can 6, ronaldo around 8, but messi 10.
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Eactly my point. Messi is a genius. His IQ must be one of the highest ever

EDIT: Just to clarify for some people, I'm speaking only about his football IQ.
 
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Should have gone into physics with that IQ imho. Messi vs Einstein thread would be mad.
 
harms said:
It’s really a speed of reaction + experience, I doubt that it has any relevance with his IQ.
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A gifted player who was raised in La Masia under a system that emphasises the necessity of passing through all tight spaces and presses. After a while you become less nervous in tight spaces and that buys you split seconds longer to make rational footballing decisions, which makes all the difference if you're Messi and you have great peripheral awareness in awareness to the above.
 
Hoof The Ball said:
A gifted player who was raised in La Masia under a system that emphasises the necessity of passing through all tight spaces and presses. After a while you become less nervous in tight spaces and that buys you split seconds longer to make rational footballing decisions, which makes all the difference if you're Messi and you have great peripheral awareness in awareness to the above.
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Yeah, but that has nothing really to do with IQ.
 
MalcolmTucker said:
Eventually there will be a player as physically blessed as someone like Adama Traore with Messi's talent and C. Ronaldo's dedication but the one thing I'd be surprised about is them staying as injury free as Messi over a 15 year span. Obviously Messi was injury prone in his early years but it's insane how few injuries he's suffered for such an agile and fouled player. Often you see these incredibly blessed athletes like L. Ronaldo, Bale, Robben, Theo Walcott, O. Dembele plagued with muscle injuries so even if there was a player with a higher peak than Messi, it seems unlikely that they will be able to maintain for as long as Messi has.
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So much is made about Ronaldos training and dedication. Id love to hear more about Messi in this regard. His attitude to the game off the pitch must be perfect to be so injury free.
 
He never gets injured before big CL games does he?
 
Gio said:
I don't disagree with a lot of what you're saying. But the premise here that these guys won't be bettered in decades -or centuries as you put it - is hugely unlikely. The commonality running across all three isn't just their freakish talent, but the fact they have peaked in the last 15 years or so. To me that suggests that people who have lived through this generation, been influenced by what they have seen, cannot conceive of anyone being better within their lifetimes. As Rob Smyth put it - 'the arrogance of modernity dictates that the best we have ever seen becomes the best that ever there was'. That's an internal bias that every generation is guilty of.
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I totally agree with you, which is why I said that we can't imagine what the game will be like thousands of years from now. But I really think it will take a really long time for someone to come along like Messi. Eventually it will inevitably happen, but I suspect we'll all be 6 feet under the ground by then.
 
Sayros said:
I think the package of Messi, with the combination of touch, dribbling, passing, vision, etc is going to be very hard to replace, but I think it will happen. As far as your point on Mbappe, no, I don't think he will be able to lead all stat categories like Messi is doing (although I wouldn't be that surprised if he managed it for one season in his career), but I am fairly confident he will be able to match CR7 and Messi's output as far as goals+assists over several seasons as he's already on pace for a 40+ goal season at 20. Now he has to show he can do it over many years, but I'm fairly confident he will and that already will be something many people throught would take a long time to happen because before those two, it was incredibly rare to even see it once, let alone over many years.

I remember hearing about how, for the longest time, the world record for the 100m dash remained unchallenged, until it was finally broken and since then it has been challenged and broken many times. Now it's an overly simplistic analogy to the point I'm trying to apply to football, but while the aesthetics of Messi's game along with his stat-stuffing impact might not come along exactly in the same manner, I have no doubts that someone will eventually be in that neighborhood. Your contention is very much specific to Messi and I think you're right in many ways, but on the broader point of having strings of 50+ goals season (something many think won't happen once those two retire), that I think will happen within the next few years because it's now out there in the broader subconscious that it can be done.

Could it take a century or more for another player like Messi to come along? Maybe you're right but let's just say I have a bit more optimism in mankind's ability to produce another Messi somewhere out there in the world, and while my point makes it sound as simple as just watching Messi will create another Messi, it's not what I'm actually saying but what I am saying is it does have an impact for youth players to know it's possible to put your game together into such a deadly package that has also statistical impact consistently over the years.

It's quite incredible how much kids are learning just by watching, I follow basketball and MMA closely, and it's incredible to see how the kids of today come out with so much of a skills package compared to their contemporaries, and the ability to learn online, to see others, and to practice it on your own is a huge advantage that didn't exist 10-15 years ago. While I disagree with your point that we'll never see another Messi, it's still up in the air whether you'll be right or wrong, but I'm definitely excited by the future prospects of the game and while I will miss CR7 and Messi, I don't see their retirement as the end of anything but rather the beginning of a new generation of players who grew up knowing it's possible to do what they've done.
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Thanks for your thoughtful post, I think you make a lot of good points. I would still disagree that the next generation will generate someone like Messi, by the law of averages this is unlikely. But we'll just have to wait and see. I've hopefully got 40 years left on this planet, maybe 50 if I'm lucky, maybe less if I'm not lucky! It'll be interesting to see what the game throws up in this time.
 
Man of Leisure said:
Don't think he's ever had that amazing highlight reel play against us. Pretty sure that's gonna change after our CL tie. :(
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Chris Smalling's magnificent performance against him will, indeed, make for a good highlight reel.
 
Messi , Messi , Messi :)

Looking at him and his pure football mind and starting thinking of our social media superstars , I really wanna puke on ours .

Lets just hope Ole can once again remind our players who actually Manchester United football club is and make them wanna be part of its best history and future respectively .
 
WR10 said:
He never gets injured before big CL games does he?
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He wasn't available against Bayern a few seasons ago.
Other than that, he's available but either his team got dominated or he performs badly.
 
This is what I think is unique about Messi, and I wouldn't say unrepeatable, but not something that will be easily repeatable.

rJpkRyp.png


Here he is about to make a perfect pass to Alba, which few other players in the game could make. Now you wouldn't think the player in that position could score 50 goals per season. When have you ever seen Ronaldo, Lewandowski, Kane, Aguero, Aubameyang...any of the top scorers in European football take up a position like that? They're constantly up against the defenders. Even wider players like Salah, Neymar and Mbappe don't drop that deep.

I just cannot imagine we're going to see a player again, at least in the foreseeable future, who can do that, can drop into midfield, dictate play, and start pinging the ball around all over the place, and also score 660 goals (and counting)! I just cannot see this happening. If someone does come along who can do this then I'll enjoy watching him.
 
If Messi is not the GOAT, he surely has to be one of the best five of all time.
I am not looking forward to seeing him in Barca's line up against us this week.
The only way we can beat a Messi led Barca is to be incredibly tight, play as a unit, play the best defensive football we can play and be completely ruthless in counter attack.
 
wub1234 said:
This is what I think is unique about Messi, and I wouldn't say unrepeatable, but not something that will be easily repeatable.

rJpkRyp.png


Here he is about to make a perfect pass to Alba, which few other players in the game could make. Now you wouldn't think the player in that position could score 50 goals per season. When have you ever seen Ronaldo, Lewandowski, Kane, Aguero, Aubameyang...any of the top scorers in European football take up a position like that? They're constantly up against the defenders. Even wider players like Salah, Neymar and Mbappe don't drop that deep.

I just cannot imagine we're going to see a player again, at least in the foreseeable future, who can do that, can drop into midfield, dictate play, and start pinging the ball around all over the place, and also score 660 goals (and counting)! I just cannot see this happening. If someone does come along who can do this then I'll enjoy watching him.
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I mean I can't speak for the others as I don't want that much general football anymore and Messi is obviously on a different planet to Kane but Kane takes up positions like that on a very regular basis and is constantly dropping deep and spraying passes around. I think Messi is the greatest player alive but not because he scores goals and also drops deep to pass to players (which is not a unique skillset). Perhaps the incredible regularity with which he does both.
 
InLevyITrust said:
Would be interesting to know but I doubt his footballing ability really reflects that much on his IQ TBH.
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But outside of the pitch I even think he's slow. I'm just talking about his football IQ, don't get me wrong.

I'm argentinian and I can tell he can't even speak properly I'm just talking about decision making. I don't think it's that hard to get if you follow the bolded part of the quote I commented to.
 
Mbappe may break his goalscoring records and if he doesnt someone will but ut wont be easy. Stats however will never remeber his greatness. He only played one season as an out an out stiker and he created history with the most goals in one single season.

He has played in midfield as an attacking midfielder and correctly. You need to give messi as much ball because quitr simply he is the most skillfull, best passer, best dribbler, most creative player in the world. Not to mention his goals / freekicks.
Its a BIG pity Sky dont cover la liga. Every football fan should watch barca just to see a footballing genius. That is what he is. I honestly dont think i wilp ever see a better player and im 35. Im sure goalscoring records will be matched or beaten but an all round player with the skills and goals, i doubt will ever be seen
 
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wub1234 said:
Thanks for your thoughtful post, I think you make a lot of good points. I would still disagree that the next generation will generate someone like Messi, by the law of averages this is unlikely. But we'll just have to wait and see. I've hopefully got 40 years left on this planet, maybe 50 if I'm lucky, maybe less if I'm not lucky! It'll be interesting to see what the game throws up in this time.
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You may be right, it might just be my own subconscious desire to think this isn't as good as it gets for the rest of my life when it comes to football and seeing a player like Messi. :nervous:
 
It's interesting watching whole matches from the 70's and 80's involving players such as Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Eusebio and seeing how inconsistent they can all be in the course of one game, let alone multiple ones. Stray passes, odd passing choices, poor touches, caught in possession, etc. History paints such a glorious picture of the world's greatest that it's humbling to see inconsistency in all of their respective games.
 
Hoof The Ball said:
It's interesting watching whole matches from the 70's and 80's involving players such as Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Eusebio and seeing how inconsistent they can all be in the course of one game, let alone multiple ones. Stray passes, odd passing choices, poor touches, caught in possession, etc. History paints such a glorious picture of the world's greatest that it's humbling to see inconsistency in all of their respective games.
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Yeah, losing the ball wasn't a big deal in the past. A lot more trial & error. The fame is still justified imo, individual genius showed itself inside other historical football environments just as it does in today's.
 
Mettaur said:
He wasn't available against Bayern a few seasons ago.
Other than that, he's available but either his team got dominated or he performs badly.
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He’s won 4 CL’s with some of the all time great performances
 
kouroux said:
In recent years, I read that he had to change his nutrition in order to last more or something like that
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He’s been vegan for a fair while now I think? Some athletes have said this has helped them to reduce the number of injured they sustain.
 
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