He'll hit 700.
Lionel Messi
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It will depend a lot on if he starts getting rested for the big games as he gets older or not. If he keeps playing as often he'll easily pass it.
That's pretty ambitious. Would mean he's scoring 50 goals a season until he's 34 respectively 30-40 until 35. Even if he plays so long it is not guaranteed he can keep up this level.
He's not scored under 40 in 10 years.
Well, he also wasn't past 30 in the last 10 years
Even Messi has his limits. I mean, especially his body feints and his finishing will remain as good and I can very well imagine that he generally can retain his quality and score this amount until he's 35+, just like Robben, Ribery and Cristiano Ronaldo are/were still exceptional at a very surprising age. But I'm not sure if Messi really wants to. He never really seemed to care about records, he was very injury prone in the beginning of his career and it may come back as he's getting older and in the early stages, he wasn't as professional as he is now (the pizza stories, the puking etc., those were issues until I believe the first year of Luis Enrique). So, 700 is definitely possible but I wouldn't be too sure about it. I'd absolutely love another 3-4 or even more years of watching Messi play football though.
He will last longer than Cristiano.
Maybe, but he'll probably play deeper than he's actually doing.
Still, he scores at an absurd rate for someone that's not 100% focused on scoring and helps build up a lot, I don't really know when he's going to run out of gas for those runs to appear in scoring positions, orwhen his legs will give up so he no longer can sprint 15 meters and pinpoint the ball into the net from outside the area.
Some records seem to start slipping away from him due to age, his start of the UCL season with 5 goals in 2 games probably put him on the best position he'll be to threaten Ronaldo's UCL goals in a single season, but 5 goals in 4 games puts him again in a hard position to achieve it.
Best player I have ever watched. Been watching football since 1996, properly aware of football since 1998. In 20 years I have never seen a more naturally gifted footballer. The only player except Ronaldo De Lima and Ronaldinho that I have ever thought “wow how did he do that”.
Breathtaking to watch, highly efficient and deadly.
Breathtaking to watch, highly efficient and deadly.
I can see him after 35 playing like Pirlo.
It would be completely suicidal to play the current version of Messi any deeper than he's playing, nevermind a few years from now. Next to 0 dynamic movement, versatility or defensive contribution... you can't play a player like that deeper in modern football. Nevermind one that needs the ball at his feet as much as Messi does which is something that will be magnified as he gets older. Even now it causes big systematic problems to Barcelona, especially to your pressing. If he was playing deeper all these problems would just become bigger... and you'd lose at least 20 goals on top of it. You'd give up on any kind of pressing and become even more unbalanced than currently.
I don't know if there's just a massive amount of people that do not understand the sport or what's happening to Barcelona but the fact that it is a commonly held opinion that Messi will play deeper as he gets older is incredible to me. It's like the past 3 years never happened. The only manager that I'd trust to solve the headache that is getting the best out of this Barcelona team is Guardiola and I reckon the first thing he'd do would be getting Messi to play higher and see less of the ball, instead of the mess of the past few years. As long as it's the same pattern being repeated, the results will keep being repeated too. You'll make your attack go through him, Messi will come deep to make something happen as often as possible, plenty of moments for his highlight reels while Barcelona underperform with an incredible squad.
Except as he gets older, he'll be able to make things happen less and less often and the results will get worse and worse. If I was a Barcelona fan, I'd be dreading at the fact so many people seem happy for this to be the case. People here can call me biased, throw insults, the usual but I've been saying the same things for years now and it's been true every step of the way. Maybe I just happen to know what I'm talking about.
That's the biggest insult Pirlo has ever gotten, to believe that all you need to play like him is having his technical and passing ability. As much as I'd love to watch it hilariously fail, Messi will never become even a similar player to Pirlo unless Barcelona want to make sure they win nothing. To succeed into his late 30s he'll need to massively adapt but he'll need to do it as a forward because that's all he can be in today's game.
I don't believe he'll adapt in the slightest unless Guardiola comes back, he'll remain the exact same type of player except progressively worse from now on. How fast that progression will be depends on how his body holds up.
Ronaldo is 34 in February and hasn't scored under 42 goals in a season yet as a 30+ year old. In fact, his best statistical season came at 30 years old with 61 goals in all competitions. I'm pretty sure Messi can keep up his goalscoring for another 3 years too.
Some here think every player with good touch and passing range can be converted to a DLP. See the Mata DLP thread. It is especially weird when it comes to a player like Messi one of the best goal scorers ever. Why would you want to take him away from the goal?
You wouldn’t but he is also one of the greatest playmakers in history too
Even though Peyronaldo's post is dripping with the usual thinly-veiled anti-Messi sentiment, I agree with his point about him dropping deeper. He'll play the role he has now or as a false 9 until the end of his career.
Yeah I can't seem him converting to CM really. They guy will offer nothing from a defensive point of view. He spends a lot his game walking around on the pitch, do that while playing CM and they would be punished.
Yeah I tried to just ignore those parts of the post I agree. I actually think Messi will become more of a 9 as he ages.
I wish Messi had dynamic movement and versatility, then he might be able to head the ball like CRinaldno.
I can see it is not equal to what will happen. For me football is not black or white and saying its a insult doesn't deserve even a answer. Last thing to say is that I said this based on my views because I don't need to copy what others think. And I will always say it from my head.
Barca will always dominate possession, so wherever Messi plays on paper, he will end up playing in final third on pitch
Also yeah, Messi playing deeper role isn't something out of question. His passing is just unbelievably good.
Thanks, someone got the meaning of what I said.Barca will always dominate possession, so wherever Messi plays on paper, he will end up playing in final third on pitch
Also yeah, Messi playing deeper role isn't something out of question. His passing is just unbelievably good.
You simply can't describe Messi's position with traditional wordings. Peyroteo's right, he won't play as a CM since he won't be capable of the leg work which would require him to regularly run four to five kilometres more than he used to throughout his entire career aged 30+. But can he be described as a forward or striker when he usually has four to five players of his own team ahead of him (und 7-8 opponents) when he receives the ball? Of course not.
Currently he plays like a CM when Barca is in possession and like a (quite lazy) striker when not. Meanwhile he only presses right after possession losses. And this development will probably only get more extreme IMO. He'll play in a tactically unique construct that'll have others doing the leg work for him while he himself will take over even more responsibilities in playmaking and creating momentum. Obviously he'll still score lots of goals since he has this insane ability to get at the end of attacks he initiated himself. So basically he cherrypicks the 8/10/9 responsibilities and let others cover their defensive duties.
Currently he plays like a CM when Barca is in possession and like a (quite lazy) striker when not. Meanwhile he only presses right after possession losses. And this development will probably only get more extreme IMO. He'll play in a tactically unique construct that'll have others doing the leg work for him while he himself will take over even more responsibilities in playmaking and creating momentum. Obviously he'll still score lots of goals since he has this insane ability to get at the end of attacks he initiated himself. So basically he cherrypicks the 8/10/9 responsibilities and let others cover their defensive duties.
Will it happen? Probably no. Can he do multiple functions? Imo yes.
Not the same as saying it will happen or not. Problem is you don't need to take everything literaly as if it is a big problem to say only a limited number of players can do multiple roles because their football IQ is far superior to the normal ones.
The day we can't say we can see X or Y player doing this or that is the day when I will start discussing football based on Whoscored Ratings or X player is good because he won that or Mourinho in 2018 is better than Sarri because he won more. Sorry but I don't see football like that. Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Not the same as saying it will happen or not. Problem is you don't need to take everything literaly as if it is a big problem to say only a limited number of players can do multiple roles because their football IQ is far superior to the normal ones.
The day we can't say we can see X or Y player doing this or that is the day when I will start discussing football based on Whoscored Ratings or X player is good because he won that or Mourinho in 2018 is better than Sarri because he won more. Sorry but I don't see football like that. Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion.
I have a feeling that Messi will end up in cm, sooner than latter. His passing and vision is unbelievable, so when his "legs go", he's gonna end up in the middle of the pitch.
Enough people said Messi was too small to ever make it as a footballer. Didn't do too badly in the end. I'm sure he could play a DLP role for Barca into his mid-thirties with aplomb if he wished. It's not as if Pirlo was all action.
Remember the Rooney CDM experience? Just because you have the toolbox it doesn't mean you can ply the trade.
I wouldn't say he's a proper playmaker. He's got a killer pass on him, no doubt, and is second to none when it comes to creating chances in an offensive trio.
But when it comes to droping deeper and being the general maestro of the team, as he was expected to do for Argentina ever since Riquelme retired, things do not work so well.
That's because the rest of the squad for the NT is absolute crap. If anything he drops so deep just to help bring the ball into the attacking half because no one else can do it. Higauin, Aguero, Di Maria all turn to crap for the NT. If he was able to play with just one decent finisher his assist total would be WAY up. Put him on a team with proper finishers and he can certainly succeed. He doesn't track back which would be an issue, but he can definitely do a Toni Kroos type role as he gets older without issue.
Well analysed. Into his 30s he's most likely to float between the 8 and 9 positions. Deep enough to get on the ball but high enough to get away with doing next to no running. I never envisage him playing beneath the midfield in a DLP-style role as the off-the-ball requirement, discipline and defensive positional instincts will be foreign to the way he's played for the last decade.
But he still gets found out in that role. Even though his teammates didn't help, his individual initiatives in that role were subpar and way beyond what he does as a striker.
He was pretty much played out of position for Argentina, because they have great strikers, but mediocre midfielders. Their answer to that was to remove their most talented player from the attack and put him on midfield. Never worked.
It is indicative that Messi, until proven otherwise, is not as capable as as midfielder as he is as a striker. Personally, I see no problem with that. The problem is playing him oop. To assume that he can just drop deeper and do what Kroos does is ignoring that Kroos has years of experience and know-how in that role and has been tailored to do that since he was a kid.
Well if there's one thing elite players can keep doing well into their 30's is running around, they lose pace and explosiveness, but the human body starts favouring more towards endurance at that age.
Once his legs don't feel so light and he starts losing his advantage vs younger defenders (right now, he has one yard in his legs and another on his mind) he can start shaping his body to enhance his stamina, running around at a constant pace is also one of the best things a player can do to avoid injuries.
Will he demand a lot of the ball in midfield? Well yeah, like Xavi did in his latest years, and Iniesta the last seasons, they could play fast 1-2's or get the ball and dribble around to find the open man, when I imagine Messi at 35 y/o I think about Iniesta last year, but with a great shot, a decent header (yeah, he's short) and a wider passing range. Iniesta would've been a different kind of monster if his right leg had the same range Messi can display nowadays, even at his peak, Iniesta could only dream of crossing a ball 35M away with power and accuracy.
People were surprised when Iniesta took extra defensive duties with Luis Enrique as he was always regarded soft, a liability in our pressing, but for old inteligent players once they don't have to save their stamina for speed bursts they can start using their tactical sense to help the team, even if they have 10% the capabilities of someone like Casemiro or Kante, doesn't mean they're 90% worse, otherwise Busquets would've been exposed as a DM 10 years ago.
I can definitely see him running games from a deeper position like Scholes or Pirlo in a few years. He's easily the best passer in the world right now. His vision is absolutely ridiculous. He can play at the highest level for as long as he wants.
Having him come deep to create as often as he’s doing is a terrible offensive system that does not work in the slightest, it destroys any dynamic movements the team has and it makes Barcelona predictable, one-dimensional and dependent on how the opposition defends it. The fact he often saves Barcelona from situations they wouldn’t need to be saved if they played an offensive system which made any kind of sense in modern football is not irrelevant, regardless of how impressive it is to watch it happen.
Sorry for being harsh but anyone who believes he can play the role Xavi, Pirlo or a Scholes used to play has absolutely no clue about the sport or what it entails to play that role. The worst part is that even if he was actually capable of it, it would still be beyond stupid to play him so far away from goal with the ability he has when close to it.
Judging by the comments here, a lot of people will be in for a big surprise watching the next few years unfold.
Sorry for being harsh but anyone who believes he can play the role Xavi, Pirlo or a Scholes used to play has absolutely no clue about the sport or what it entails to play that role. The worst part is that even if he was actually capable of it, it would still be beyond stupid to play him so far away from goal with the ability he has when close to it.
Judging by the comments here, a lot of people will be in for a big surprise watching the next few years unfold.
Is there a comparable player in terms of the amount of goals he’s scored by pretty much passing it into the net?
I definitely agree on this point. If anything, I hope Messi ends up taking over Suarez's position up front through the middle rather than dropping deeper.
Obviously, he wouldn't play the role exactly like Suarez as a pure #9, but I would rather see him less involved overall but in more dangerous positions as he gets older.
I don't know, the transition seems pretty extreme to me. From running 7-8 km with a lot of sprints and accelerations to 12+ without much of it? It is also true that you can turn fast twitching muscle fibers to slow twitching ones and not the other way round but I still think this is too much of a change at the supposed age. You should also consider that nowadays a lot of very good players retained good acceleration and pace at a high age like Robben, Ribery and Ronaldo. The current Messi rarely really uses his acceleration anymore, more often than not his brillant dribbles rely on his body feints, footwork and close control. Theoretically he can play this role for many years to come since I don't see him declining in any of the abilities most important to it.
Why? After all, Barca creates shit loads of chances that way and it is not like it is their only weapon nowadays. Last season I would've agreed with you as almost every attacking pattern went through Messi dropping deep but now that Coutinho has settled in, Arthur has played an important midfield role and so on they aren't that reliant on Messi moments anymore. He also gets into more scoring positions without being involved in the actual creation of that particular chance. He usually tends to do it in static situations, too. It is not like he drops deep when there is an attack unfolding and is missing in the dangerous areas. It is his way of getting between the lines when the opponent is in his formation and it is quite effective.
What should be his role in your opinion?
Exactly, the current role he's playing is as deep as he can possibly play and I'd argue him being less involved would actually help the team. Especially this year as Barcelona have a complete squad with loads of options.
Coutinho and Dembele cost over 100 million each, the quality is undoubtedly there but the team actually needs to play so they can get the best out of them. Dembele in particular has been so misused at times it's incredible, it's like the team is playing a certain style of football and he's playing a different one.
He should play further forward and out wide a lot more often than he does, especially on the right hand side and he should nowhere near as static as he is. I believe that getting Guardiola to come back will be the only thing that might make it happen.
Barcelona now create a shitload of chances from Messi coming deep when the opponents can't stop it, when they can stop it then what's plan B? There isn't one, it's one-dimensional attacking football and it's not even that complicated to stop. Properly tracking Alba's runs and stopping Messi from getting the ball as often as possible by man marking will immediately cause Barcelona problems.
Most top teams will be able to enjoy large spells of possession against this Barcelona team nowadays, they won't even have to defend wave after wave of attacks. Barcelona might end up winning the Champions League, you can't really predict these things but even though the squad has undoubtedly got better, the exact same problems from last year are still there and it's a systematic problem, not a problem of lack of quality players.
And what should he be doing there? Even under Guardiola, Messi dropped deep constantly. Maybe not as often as now but still a fair amount of times - and he played with arguably the two best midfielders ever in their peak at this time and was coached by arguably the best manager ever (no offense, SAF fans
). This team was unique, you really can't expect that. The last thing you want him to do is receiving the ball with his back to the goal and that's what you typically get when playing in the number 9 area. We've only seen the concept of the false nine work when Guardiola worked with Messi, never before and never after.Messi dropping deep is Barcelona's equivalent of Madrid crossing it to Ronaldo. In general not the best attacking strategy but the pure ability of the involved players makes it efficient. Insane individual class as a last resort. You are lying to yourself if you really think it is easy to defend this. These are the typical "you know what's coming but you still can't defend it" moments.
But you are right, Barcelona was poor in possession for quite a long time. But this has nothing to do with Messi dropping deep because he only really does it when they are in a static situation anyway which means they already have control over the ball. The problem is that they aren't nearly as dominant as they used to be and this was related to a lack of quality on key positions. With Arthur, Vidal, a fresher Rakitic and a Coutinho who's settled in, it is a completely different story. It remains to be seen if Valverde is the right coach, though.
And what should he be doing there? Even under Guardiola, Messi dropped deep constantly. Maybe not as often as now but still a fair amount of times - and he played with arguably the two best midfielders ever in their peak at this time and was coached by arguably the best manager ever (no offense, SAF fans
Messi dropping deep is Barcelona's equivalent of Madrid crossing it to Ronaldo. In general not the best attacking strategy but the pure ability of the involved players makes it efficient. Insane individual class as a last resort. You are lying to yourself if you really think it is easy to defend this. These are the typical "you know what's coming but you still can't defend it" moments.
But you are right, Barcelona was poor in possession for quite a long time. But this has nothing to do with Messi dropping deep because he only really does it when they are in a static situation anyway which means they already have control over the ball. The problem is that they aren't nearly as dominant as they used to be and this was related to a lack of quality on key positions. With Arthur, Vidal, a fresher Rakitic and a Coutinho who's settled in, it is a completely different story. It remains to be seen if Valverde is the right coach, though.
The problem isn't that they're as dominant as they once were because it's beyond impossible to replicate that. The only reason that attacking system worked in the first place was the fact that they had the greatest team that's ever existed who were miles better than anyone else. They still struggled at times too due to how one dimensional they were too and I bet Barcelona fans will look back at that and be disappointed they won 2 CLs in 4 years, that team should have won 4 in a row. Anyway, Arthur, Coutinho, etc. won't be enough to make it work, we're seeing that. There aren't other Xavis, Iniestas or Dani Alves around, they're the best squad in the world but they aren't twice as good as anyone else anymore.
The difference between Messi coming deep to create and Madrid crossing to Ronaldo is that one is 90% of the attacking strategy, the other is 5%. Madrid have been more successful than Barcelona in recent years because of the multitude of movements in attack and their ability to adapt, Barcelona are one dimensional and nowhere near as versatile. I look at Juve now and it's the same difference. One system was very efficient, easy to implement and got the best out of the available players, the other doesn't.
Because like always you're missing the point of how managers are using him as a joker, his pressence in midfield/final third and the way he's able to keep the ball in control and draw attention helps his teams a lot in the defensive end, if you build an offensive system with what Argentina and Barcelona have at the back and no Leo to help retain the ball, the defense usually gets exposed and drilled.
You were praising Argentina's defensive prowess months ago and without Leo they got destroyed vs Spain, the same side that had incredible problems to score vs Iran, Morocco or Russia, nevermind their frailty at counters with Barcelona pieces like Pique, Alba, and a defensive RB better than Roberto or Semedo, same for Argentina that not only got destroyed by Spain without Messi, but also against Croatia, one of the few teams that could take the ball away from a squad built around Leo as a #10 and exploit its flaws.
He freezes the game in a spot thats advantageous for his team, while still having that clutch factor to score goals or assist the forwards, without Leo the work is a lot harder for midfielders and defenders, touch that balance and you're exposing your team too much at the back.
Dembelé isn't being misused, you can't play around a guy that tries a dribble or feint and if he goes past then good, and if he fails he just doesn't care and still tries to do the same thing until it works out, his attitude is piss poor so it's only normal that other players that have a better impact on the team end up eating his minutes or getting the ball more.
https://elpais.com/deportes/2018/04/30/actualidad/1525109095_623508.html
"El 10 seguía con especial atención los movimientos de Dembélé, recién aterrizado en el Barcelona. Entonces, el rosarino arrancó con un arsenal de preguntas. “¿Cómo puedo hacer para aprovechar más la velocidad de este chico?”, “¿Dónde me tengo que colocar yo si Dembélé se cierra?”, “¿Cuándo él centra es mejor que yo ataque al primer palo o que espere más cerca del punto del penalti?”, fueron algunas de las dudas que el argentino le planteó al ayudante de Valverde"
He's shown for years that he's able to adapt to other players around him, Neymar, Suarez, he even let Dembele take care of things at the start of the season with him playing a more central role while Messi was just playing around, but it didn't work so the time came to take the reins again and Dembele got benched. A 100+M player that gets the reins of a team with Messi and fails to show any kind of positive emotion in the field is a big problem to motivate the squad.