Cant talk on the Maradona to Messi. But Mbappe to Ronaldo? No Mbappe isnt the same.
Some of the goals Ronaldo scored Pre world cup 98 are just ridiculous.
Lionel Messi
- Thread starter Scarecrow
- Start date
Cant talk on the Maradona to Messi. But Mbappe to Ronaldo? No Mbappe isnt the same.
Some of the goals Ronaldo scored Pre world cup 98 are just ridiculous.
I've only questioned his production internationally where I think he's underperformed in accordance with his talent.
Gosh, Messi isnt recognised for just doing what he is doing for fanciness sake, he is consistently breaking the defence, helping in midfield and looking for a chance to pounce on the goal. It's the only reason how a small man like him is able to accomplish such a magnitude of a task. It's the way he is doing it just makes it look so simple and elegant on the eye, which is in fact very difficult. By that it doesnt mean what he's doing is useless, he has always been more productive, effective and efficient than most players.
Compared to Ronaldo who does a ton of stepovers and could barely go past a single player, how is Messi less impactful? People seem to get the impression that Messi is useless, but stats tells you otherwise. And this is what he needs to do in an offensive style of play, you cant just sit in the box and wait for the ball all the time. You have to help teammates when they have to deal with constant pressing and zonal/man marking. Messi isnt a classic goalscorer as well, because he lacks the height and physique/stamina.
Essentially, classic goalscorers/goal poachers who position themselves waiting to score goals have little to zero impact to the buildup play and would have to depend alot on the team to put in good services in a consistent fashion to be able to achieve these "tap ins". How else do u think the ball is able to get to them?
Also, people like to let the team's victories affect their judgement on players(World Cup, Euros) where too many factors can affect the score/team in a short period of time. Is that to say Klose is a better and more impactful player than Messi just because he scores so much in a single tournament once every 4 years like World Cup? Messi has been consistently churning out performance/ goals and assists, that is the difference.
He didnt underperform. In fact, he overachieved with Argentina. So many players underperform in Argentina, Aguero, Di Maria/Dybala who are not consistent at all. The team tactics/management are also serious issues because there is simply too much pressure to achieve too many with a mediocre/no chemistry team, and it all comes crumbling down at the end and failed to get the best out of each other.
Defending champions Germany also went out in a worse fashion then Argentina. Does that mean the players were trash individually? Messi singlehandedly brought a team who almost couldnt qualified to the world cup and helped them past the group stages.
And dont tell me he missed penalties, many players miss penalties in late stages, it's probably his only minor weakness but I dont get why teams force him to take all the time just because he is Messi. But in any case, he made a single mistake during the Copa 2016, so what? That single mistake doesnt write off what he contributed during the entire tournament. And if Higuain scores that goal in the World Cup final, does that mean Messi's ability is decided by a single teammate? Even if Messi won the world cup, people will find reasons to put him down. Ultimately, the notion that a team's trophy is the metric for gauging a single player is just illogical altogether.
He did perform worse at the WC compared to other alltime greats.
What was his best WC performance out of 15 games? vs Nigeria '14 maybe? Does he have any memorable games against good teams?
He didnt. The same can be said about Ronaldo, who completely disappeared in wc 2014. 2018, one gd game against Spain tats about it. For Euros, Ronaldo scored 3 against Hungary and Wales, while taking the most shots by a mile in a tournament, 42 shots. Nothing impressive either.
And good game meaning what? Scoring goals? Creating chances? If your teammates cannot convert, you can't have an assist either. Players performances are more or less dependant on your teammates as well and too many factors that can affect the outcome of it. You either lose or win, going by a tournament held every 4 years, limited by only players that are your countrymen. You need the luck, right ingredients and tactics to be able to allow most players to shine and win the one-time tournament.
I'm assuming Klose is conclusively better than the other two, going by your logic.
funny how messi fans go ultra defensive when it comes to NT performance. Do you lot really think he plays at the same level with his NT the way he plays in barcelona? He botches one-on-ones which he will score with his eyes closed with a barca jersey on, misses penalties at crucial junctures. He doesn't have a single WC which he has dominated, like a Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Zidane, R9 etc. There is no shame in accepting reality as it is; what he has already achieved is stuffs of folklore, but that doesn't mean he's perfect.
Finally, the age-old rebuttal by citing CR7's performance with Portugal , which is equally worse than what is expected, albeit Portugal has been an underwhelming side for quite some time. Messi fans claim that Messi should be compared against the Peles and the Maradonas of the world; then why justify his abysmal/below-average performances in WCs by comparing that with Ronaldo's?
The last statement about Klose is desperate nonsense. Doesn't even merit a reply.
Because Messi’s NT teams are comfortably worse than the NT teams pele had (Brazil won a WC when he was injured) and Maradonna had (wasn’t even the leading scorer on his team and had teammates that showed up but was obviously immense anyway).
The Argentina NT team is a train wreck. Look at how they are when Messi doesn’t play, they were on the verge of not making the WC until Messi returned to bring them back from the dead.
I wouldn’t call Messi’s NT career spectacular by any means, but 4 straight NT finals with a very disjointed NT is one hell of a run. A little more luck and maybe things could have turned it differently. Di Maria and Aguero being injured for the 2014 WC final really hurt. Especially Di Maria.
fair enough, but this logic can be twisted in million ways, already done to death. That in club level Messi has mostly played in teams which come in "greatest ever" contention debates which has immensely helped him, Argentina 1986 was NOT a great side by any means, labeling maradona not being leading scorer is a hypocritical metric from messi camp, since, dribbles and assists and other parameters trump goals scored, that maradona's 4 goals out of 5 came in QF/SF compared to Messi's goals scored mostly in group stages...anyway.
Your point makes certain sense, but my response was mostly at people who are glorifying Messi's NT career to the levels of his majestic club career. They are no way comparable, and again, just to not spark off a debate; same is the case for CR7 as well.
Last edited by a moderator:
I can see a certain physical similarity in Mbappe to Ronaldo with regards gate and style of play, but you’re absolutely correct: the spell I saw from PSV to that injury at Inter was mind blowing. Just unstoppable at times and I still haven’t seen a striker that, when through on the ‘keeper, I was so sure would score (and with such ease). But comparisons are always somewhat vulgar - I’d say let’s just buy Mpabbe and enjoy him at Old Trafford for 10 years or so in order to make a proper assessment!
On a related point, I feel Rivaldo and Ronaldinho are also somewhat underrated by modern fans as we seem to have entered an era of ‘stats’ driven American style assessments/analysis of players (I blame Ayn Rand and her bloody ego-driven objectivism, though I’ll get murdered in silicone valley for saying so). Goats should only be mentioned with regards Bill Hicks skits and West Indian curries...
On Maradona vs Messi: they played under very different conditions but, to me, Messi is very nearly a modern version of Diego and certainly the best player of his generation. Why people argue for modern Ronaldo is beyond me. Maybe he’s better in computer games?
The myth that maradonna dragged a poor Argentina squad to a WC needs to die off. They struggled to qualify entering the tournament but were a far better team outside of maradonna than people gave them credit for. They were performing under expectations heading into the tournament hence why many had written them off but there were lots of great performances from other players besides maradonna to make that WC happen:
https://lastwordonsports.com/2016/0...-cup-squad-was-much-more-than-diego-maradona/
Overachieved? You're telling me that an "incomparable genius artist magician" who has yet to score a solitary goal in a world cup knockout game overachieved? A dysfunctional team is not an excuse for being passive in high pressured moments. And nice of you like most Messi fanboys to conveniently throw Higuaín under the bus (also a massive choker) when Messi himself missed numerous chances in front of goal in key moments.
It wasn't a bad team by any means but here's how in my opinion Maradona handled (yes pun intended) the situation better than Messi in 14. If you watch the early games of 86 Maradona was content to orchestrate the offense and set up others much like Messi does (often brilliantly) for the national team. The difference is that when Maradona's team-mates kept missing easy chances, he took it upon himself to become more selfish and take the initiative in realising that he was the teams most lethal attacking force.
In high pressured moments, Messi does not take the initiative nearly as often as he should even though he has the talent in these moments to take over games. This is a comparison to 14 only mind, Argentina had most definitely declined by 18, especially defensively and they had to take on a France team with superior talent, depth and a more cohesive gameplan.
Last edited by a moderator:
Read this article: https://grup14.com/article/a-truthful-breakdown-of-lionel-messi-at-the-2014-world-cup
Messi was still comfortably the best player in the 2014 world cup. Maradonna did better in the knockouts but only had one more goal than Messi. I don't disagree that Maradonna had a better WC in '86 than Messi, but Maradonna also had a much more cohesive team and defenses are far more sophisticated in this era than they were back then.
The concept that Messi needed to shoot more is BS, he was the midfield and constantly had to pick up the ball in the middle of the pitch against teams who sat very very deep. He had no service from anyone else whatsoever. Maradonna had the luxury of teamamtes actually showing up. If Higuain has 1 or two more goals maybe the 2014 WC is a different story much like Eder scoring in the Euro final.
Without Messi, Argentina don't make it to a single knockout stage in any tournament.
Lets be honest here. Higuain had 3 one on ones in 3 consecutive finals. Does that make messi any better or worse if he scores them. Not for me.
Spot on, however he scores one of those and it's a NT trophy that people criticize Messi for not having.
Don't think there are many who would agree with that. He was one of the best players there, and would have been either in the first XI or on the bench of a team of the tournament, but he certainly was not by any common view 'comfortably the best player'. Could have shaped up like that had he continued his early decisive match-winning from the first half of the tournament, but he didn't and fizzled out at the business end of the competition. I don't think it's outlandish to say that both James Rodriguez and Arjen Robben had stronger tournaments.
On the defence point, the 1980s and 1990s were notorious for fairly negative football with packed defences kicking the shit out of attackers. If you compare the top defensive players that Maradona faced in that tournament - Scirea, Vierchowod, Bergomi, Butcher, Grun, Forster, Matthaus and Briegel - it's a collection that stands out in any era. It's impossible to make the claim that Messi faced the same quality in 2014 with only Kompany, Schweinsteiger and Boateng of any kind of noteworthy standard in this context.
But defenses are far more sophisticated today as they are in most sports compared to the 80's. All the teams Argentina played outside of Nigeria and Germany sat very deep and parked the bus. It was very difficult to get anything going.
As for Robben vs Messi I think this speaks for itself from the 2014 World Cup:
Yes, you are right the same can be said about Cristiano Ronaldo.
I'm not ranking him as a player based on the World Cup, I'm saying he underperformed compared to every other alltime great player. Maybe it was mostly bad luck, but stop saying he didn't underperform when it's clear he did.
You still didnt get it. I'm not saying he has the best of games, but clearly you have to put things into context. Take the game against Netherlands for example, he literally had no support/zero linkup play whatsoever and his team was so bad in midfield and attack, so you honestly cant always expect one player to have 10/10 performance, and score a ton of goals. Netherlands was comfortably sitting back with their whole team.
Germany 2010 for example, it's so clear the Argentina team has no midfield, no physicality, no speed, and were just so shaky at the back, just look at how easy for them to go past their defence like cones. So It's really baffling how people used to glorify the Argentina side just because of a few recognisable names like Di Maria, Aguero when they were clearly lacking in so so many areas. They can hardly even assemble themselves as a defensive counter attacking team or a strong possession side because of so many shortcomings. Portugal doesnt have very distinguished names but they have the means to have the tenacity and physicality to be a solid unit at the back, and is able to make use of pace and play simple crosses/headers. I would say in terms of tactics and team, Argentina in 2014 had the best chance but against bigger teams like Germany it's never going to be easy.
Put 2 and 2 together, a player like Messi and a team like Argentina is never going to work out until a huge overhaul is possible. Same with players like Aguero, and people wonder why Manchester City is able to get the best out of him. Then people argue saying "Oh Messi always have to depend on a good team." Well no shit, it still depends on their style of play, and every forward has to depend on their midfield and defence, get the best out of each other, that's the whole point of an 11 a side, isnt it?
Even if you take Hazard's performance against Brazil in 2018, he also missed his goalscoring chance when the ball sliced past the post. Very similar to Messi's against Germany. Yet they both played similarly and tried to playmake for the team. Only difference is that Belgium won against Brazil. If Belgium ended up losing, does that mean Hazard "underperformed"? Funny thing is Belgium then also lost to France in the semis. Is that the last nail in the coffin that make them flops? Hazard's overall stats was also very similar to Messi's in 2014, are easily the best players of the tournament, Modric comes very close. Croatia faced smaller teams like Russia, Denmark, easier bracket. Modric missed his penalty as well. Did Modric also "underperform" against France? These are all part of the game. So what's the big hoo ha? Doesnt matter if you are great player or a bad one, happens to the most of them.
Yeah, he "underperformed", but the whole team underperformed and depended on 1 or 2 players to pull strings. Easy to say he didnt score so he must be useless or had a non existent performance. or "Ohh... u must be a fanboy for defending him." But come on. It's really not rocket science.
Only flaw I would say is his penalty taking which Messi himself admitted. He missed plenty in Barcelona as well, but people like to focus on the international ones just to push the narrative that he is a weak international player. People seem to forget he missed his penalty against Manchester City in 2015 in the CL, but his overall game was great. As well as against famous Chelsea game.
Will he improve? Yes he can and he said he will, so not a big deal really.
Last edited:
Your points would be absolutely solid if you were talking about a run of the mill star. But we are talking about the second coming of Maradona here in terms of talent, intellect and skill level. The team not being set up quite right for him is not going to cut it as an excuse for underwhelming play. Historic players make things happen.
Yada yada about historic players making things happen. I'm sorry, it doesnt simply work that way now. Players now are better equipped, stricter diet plan, much faster and agile as compared to then. Defence are much tighter and compact as compared to then and one player cannot simply just do that anymore and will need to depend on a good team to linkup and play good return balls. Players need to read games much better and tactics are much more important than simply 11 individuals playing against each other.
Last edited:
It's a myth that any player accomplished things without a great team to back him up. Neither Pele nor Maradona nor anybody else. Yes, historic players make things happen and Messi did so in all of his world cups.
Argentina in 1986 only conceded five goals and the final was the only match in which they allowed more than one. Argentina in 2018 conced nine (!) goals in comparison - no way Maradona could've carried them. When they had a rock solid defence in 2014, they came very close to winning the whole thing.
Last edited:
That's when Messi should have showed the world what he's made of. Player of his astonishing quality who regularly pulls miracles should have had more say in the most important game of his life, especially since his team kept Germany out for 113 minutes.
....but Barcelona supporters told me he won the 2017/18 league on his own (which I agree with as I watch most Barca games last year) with trash teammates? So how come it's impossible to do with Argentina?
Don't tell me the teams he faces in the league are worse, because he regularly wins games against Real and Atletico on his own too.
Last edited:
In the Knockout Argentina 2014 conceded ZERO (!!) goal until the hundreth-something minute of the World Cup final.
Hazard and Modric?
Messi is maybe the best player ever. He should play with the big boys. Maradona, Pele, Ronaldo, Zidane, Platini, Cruyff, Beckenabauer..... That you even need to mention someone like Hazard doesn't look good.
Nobody carries a team on his own. Messi contributed a lot to Barca's last league title, probably the most I've seen in my lifetime so far, but of course it is an overstatement if people say he won it singlehandedly. Barca would of course not have won it if they had conceded four goals in every match, he couldn't hav eplayed all these great passes if his team mates hand't made the runs, and so forth. Besides all that, Messi could only account for such a large share because Barca, Atletico and Real were pretty shit for their standards.
Exactly, not sure what your point is though.
My point is that Messi underperformed in the World Cup compared to what he usually does and compared to other player of his caliber and that in 2014 he had a really good situation to succeed (not much in '10/'18 - no that the did well in 2018, but I think both were doomed from the start), but his play dropped off in the knockout round
Germany's defence was solid as well and was the better side/more complete team the whole tournament. Your point? Sabella's side played safe but their attack had hardly any support.
He came as close to winning it as it gets. There is a huge amount of luck at that point.
In which way did he underpeform? Be more specific. Was his dribbling worse or his passing? Did he screw up more attacks than usual with bad finishing, passing, dribbling or decision making in your opinion? Because I saw none of that. He of course had fewer moments but that has to do with the environment he plays in. He still did exceptional when he got into his situations.
What I saw was a pragmatic Argentina side and a great player whose performances weren't amplified on the same scale as in his club team which was several levels above Argentina attacking wise. He still had an overall performance every other player would be absolutely celebrated for.
He had flashes that demonstrated all his god given ability but in crucial moments he was passive, I don't know why that's so hard to compute. It was actually visible on his face that he was really nervous in the knockout games and didn't have the same edge about him as when he plays for Barcelona. And he didn't get at close to winning as it gets. Argentina, anchored by the best defence in the tournament got as close to winning as it gets.
Didnt they only score one goal he wasnt involved in ?
Silly me, looking at plays like dribbling, passing, finishing, movement and those things which, you know, make up good performances while missing out on the clearly most important attribute of a footballer: His facial expression.
Last edited:
In knock outs he wasn't Argentina's best player or had influence Robben had for Holland. That said Argentina went into ultra defensive mode in the knockouts.
In the final at 0-0 he had a chance. Was through on goal although slightly wide but it was on his left foot. Scuffed it wide of the post. Guess that was his moment in history that didn't quite happen.
Wait and see. This is Messi's second revenge. I smell the 6th Champions for Barcelona and his 6th Ballon d'Or.
Only 15 minutes and he’s already having a masterclass against Sevilla
Lets see how he does when it matters.
Lets see how he does when it matters.
Winner of this match goes top of La Liga, no?
Lets see how he does when it matters.
I wonder what's the point about coming here and posting things like these?
Then they talk about Messi fanboys
BTW Messi seems to have suffered an injury in his right arm
Yes, if they win this and next one vs Madrid I think they will stabilize and win it.