Lionel Messi

Ishdalar said:
Because like always you're missing the point of how managers are using him as a joker, his pressence in midfield/final third and the way he's able to keep the ball in control and draw attention helps his teams a lot in the defensive end, if you build an offensive system with what Argentina and Barcelona have at the back and no Leo to help retain the ball, the defense usually gets exposed and drilled.
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They get exposed if the press doesn't work and it's easy to find holes to play out of it which is easy to do if the opponents are passengers and are barely a threat on the counter. You can't just say that the defense will get exposed and drilled if the team can't hold the ball in attack for most of it... most teams don't do that and they don't conede 7 a game because of it. If you need over 70% possession to not expose the defense then something is wrong, the team has to be comfortable to play without the ball too and you don't need to have it far from goal all the time so the defense doesn't get exposed. There are other ways to play the game.

Don't get me wrong though, Barcelona clearly need to upgrade their defense and it's been the biggest problem this season by far. Especially in comparison to last year, it should get better once Umtiti gets back though.

Ishdalar said:
You were praising Argentina's defensive prowess months ago and without Leo they got destroyed vs Spain, the same side that had incredible problems to score vs Iran, Morocco or Russia, nevermind their frailty at counters with Barcelona pieces like Pique, Alba, and a defensive RB better than Roberto or Semedo, same for Argentina that not only got destroyed by Spain without Messi, but also against Croatia, one of the few teams that could take the ball away from a squad built around Leo as a #10 and exploit its flaws.
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The same side that struggled to score vs Morocco and Iran, put 3 past Portugal and could have been 10 past WC finalists Croatia too... you should have condeded 7 or 8 against Betis at home with Messi on the pitch. It's one game, concluding that Messi is the reason for Argentina's decent defensive record despite doing next to 0 defensive work is silly.

Ishdalar said:
He freezes the game in a spot thats advantageous for his team, while still having that clutch factor to score goals or assist the forwards, without Leo the work is a lot harder for midfielders and defenders, touch that balance and you're exposing your team too much at the back.
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Why? Why the hell would it be exposed? As long as you defend with numbers of course it won't be exposed.

Look at Juventus, 90% of the game is played away from their attacking third, they rarely get over 60% possession even against the small italian teams and they still control things defensively. Bonucci and Cancelo aren't exactly great at defending either.

Ishdalar said:
Dembelé isn't being misused, you can't play around a guy that tries a dribble or feint and if he goes past then good, and if he fails he just doesn't care and still tries to do the same thing until it works out, his attitude is piss poor so it's only normal that other players that have a better impact on the team end up eating his minutes or getting the ball more.

https://elpais.com/deportes/2018/04/30/actualidad/1525109095_623508.html

"El 10 seguía con especial atención los movimientos de Dembélé, recién aterrizado en el Barcelona. Entonces, el rosarino arrancó con un Arsenal de preguntas. “¿Cómo puedo hacer para aprovechar más la velocidad de este chico?”, “¿Dónde me tengo que colocar yo si Dembélé se cierra?”, “¿Cuándo él centra es mejor que yo ataque al primer palo o que espere más cerca del punto del penalti?”, fueron algunas de las dudas que el argentino le planteó al ayudante de Valverde"

He's shown for years that he's able to adapt to other players around him, Neymar, Suarez, he even let Dembele take care of things at the start of the season with him playing a more central role while Messi was just playing around, but it didn't work so the time came to take the reins again and Dembele got benched. A 100+M player that gets the reins of a team with Messi and fails to show any kind of positive emotion in the field is a big problem to motivate the squad.
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Dembele is being misused exactly the same way Alcacer was being misused, he's one of the most obvious talents I've ever seen. He'll either be the best player in the world or not very far from it in a few years. He's a player made to play in transition and wing play, playing in a slow possession team that rarely crosses the ball. He was being given the reigns of the team by letting him come to the middle and have the ball more often instead of actually playing a style of football that suits him somewhat.

It's like the Dybala and Messi situation with Argentina, you can blame Dybala for not being adaptable enough to make it work since Messi is the better player but making it work for the team is the responsability of all players. It shouldn't just be the worse player adapting so the best player can be at his best. Things keep going like this and one year from now Dybala won't be starting for Argentina and Dembele won't be starting for Barcelona.
 
Peyroteo said:
Having him come deep to create as often as he’s doing is a terrible offensive system that does not work in the slightest, it destroys any dynamic movements the team has and it makes Barcelona predictable, one-dimensional and dependent on how the opposition defends it.
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Oh, so you are trying to convince me that the team is unbalanced because him coming deeper unbalances the team? I don't agree but maybe that is lack of knowledge about the sport. :)

Peyroteo said:
The fact he often saves Barcelona from situations they wouldn’t need to be saved if they played an offensive system which made any kind of sense in modern football is not irrelevant, regardless of how impressive it is to watch it happen.
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The fact he does that is because he is way ahead of 99% of the other players. And I am not one of those who thinks he is the best ever. But he certainly has a place amongst the most complete.

Peyroteo said:
Sorry for being harsh but anyone who believes he can play the role Xavi, Pirlo or a Scholes used to play has absolutely no clue about the sport or what it entails to play that role.
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You are welcome to say whatever you want. And anyone who believes X player can't do any different role because a theoretical falacy about coming deeper unbalances the team and makes them unidimensional almost makes me wonder if those who see things as black or white without no middle ground to discuss anything outside the box is what? I wouldn't like to say clueless, maybe its harsh. Better say rigid or unidimentional line of thought. Better? Next.
Peyroteo said:
Judging by the comments here, a lot of people will be in for a big surprise watching the next few years unfold.
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No one will be surprised because football is not static. Its dynamic. For instance I firmly believe Messi will last longer than Cristiano at a higher level. You probably don't agree but that's life. Anyway you are always welcome with your arguments but keep in mind I will always rebate your opininions even if they may sound delusional, after all why do we support the same club? :lol:

Força e até à próxima. ;)
 
His new contract has absolutely destroyed Barcelona's wage structure right now.
77% of income is going on wages, utterly unsustainable
15% of the entire bill going on Messi
Probably the best player ever but if they had any sense they'd have sold him to Citeh for a mega fee and looked to build for the future
 
T_Model101 said:
His new contract has absolutely destroyed Barcelona's wage structure right now.
77% of income is going on wages, utterly unsustainable
15% of the entire bill going on Messi
Probably the best player ever but if they had any sense they'd have sold him to Citeh for a mega fee and looked to build for the future
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Barcelona have the biggest wage bill in the world even without Messi iirc. His contract ends in 2021 too so a renewal shouldn't be that far away. Any talks of it yet @Ishdalar?

He'll be 34 when that one ends... what happens if he asks for even more money? The board would pretty much be forced to give him whatever he wants, aren't they?
 
SCP said:
Oh, so you are trying to convince me that the team is unbalanced because him coming deeper unbalances the team? I don't agree but maybe that is lack of knowledge about the sport. :)
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Him coming deep doesn't unbalance the team. Doing it so often and needing the ball at his feet as often as he does just makes things one dimensional and predictable. It's always the same movements without barely any variations. I don't believe one player alone can unbalance a team.

SCP said:
You are welcome to say whatever you want. And anyone who believes X player can't do any different role because a theoretical falacy about coming deeper unbalances the team and makes them unidimensional almost makes me wonder if those who see things as black or white without no middle ground to discuss anything outside the box is what? I wouldn't like to say clueless, maybe its harsh. Better say rigid or unidimentional line of thought. Better? Next.
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He can't play the role of Xavi or Prilo because he does not in any way have the atributes for it. He's a great passer of the ball, but it's a different kind of passing. Passing to recycle possession or passing to create something are very different things. Dribbling to retain possession and dribbling to create chances are very different.

This is just to mention that part of the role, his contribution on the ball is 5% of the time in a game, 95% of the game is played without the ball. He'd need to learn the positioning, run more 5 kms a game than what he does currently, he'd obviously be a huge defensive liability playing in midfield and you'd lose most of his offensive contributions which is obviously his biggest strength. It's a sure way to make the team a lot worse which is why the fact so many people believe Messi will turn into some kind of midfielder as he gets older is preposterous. Same way if I argue Ronaldo and Mandzukic will become Juventus' CBs because they're tall everyone would agree that I'm wrong.

SCP said:
No one will be surprised because football is not static. Its dynamic. For instance I firmly believe Messi will last longer than Cristiano at a higher level. You probably don't agree but that's life. Anyway you are always welcome with your arguments but keep in mind I will always rebate your opininions even if they may sound delusional, after all why do we support the same club? :lol:

Força e até à próxima. ;)
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I don't really believe in that, that will depend massively on injuries and how their bodies hold up which is impossible to predict really. I think Ronaldo's the much more likely player to be successful at adapting to a different role and that Messi will retire in Barcelona similarly to Iniesta and Xavi while Ronaldo is more likely to change teams and continue playing if his level drops a bit. Plus, Ronaldo has a contract with Juve until he's 37, Messi has one until he's 34. In that sense I believe he can last for longer, but it's usually injuries that end up dictating what happens at the end of a career.

I was just arguing the point, not really arguing against you in particular ;)
 
Peyroteo said:
Exactly, the current role he's playing is as deep as he can possibly play and I'd argue him being less involved would actually help the team. Especially this year as Barcelona have a complete squad with loads of options.

Coutinho and Dembele cost over 100 million each, the quality is undoubtedly there but the team actually needs to play so they can get the best out of them. Dembele in particular has been so misused at times it's incredible, it's like the team is playing a certain style of football and he's playing a different one.
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Blame both Valverde and Dembele’s crappy attitude (showing up late to training all the time)
 
Peyroteo said:
Him coming deep doesn't unbalance the team. Doing it so often and needing the ball at his feet as often as he does just makes things one dimensional and predictable. It's always the same movements without barely any variations. I don't believe one player alone can unbalance a team.



He can't play the role of Xavi or Prilo because he does not in any way have the atributes for it. He's a great passer of the ball, but it's a different kind of passing. Passing to recycle possession or passing to create something are very different things. Dribbling to retain possession and dribbling to create chances are very different.

This is just to mention that part of the role, his contribution on the ball is 5% of the time in a game, 95% of the game is played without the ball. He'd need to learn the positioning, run more 5 kms a game than what he does currently, he'd obviously be a huge defensive liability playing in midfield and you'd lose most of his offensive contributions which is obviously his biggest strength. It's a sure way to make the team a lot worse which is why the fact so many people believe Messi will turn into some kind of midfielder as he gets older is preposterous. Same way if I argue Ronaldo and Mandzukic will become Juventus' CBs because they're tall everyone would agree that I'm wrong.



I don't really believe in that, that will depend massively on injuries and how their bodies hold up which is impossible to predict really. I think Ronaldo's the much more likely player to be successful at adapting to a different role and that Messi will retire in Barcelona similarly to Iniesta and Xavi while Ronaldo is more likely to change teams and continue playing if his level drops a bit. Plus, Ronaldo has a contract with Juve until he's 37, Messi has one until he's 34. In that sense I believe he can last for longer, but it's usually injuries that end up dictating what happens at the end of a career.

I was just arguing the point, not really arguing against you in particular ;)
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Agree with your points on Messi not being able to become Xavi or Pirlo - the biggest problem is his stamina rather like Rooney. Messi does have the passing game both short and long to become a CM but his inability to constantly move throughout a game (which you need to do in CM) would render him obsolete at the highest level if he tried to transition into such a role.

Someone like Giggs with half his ability was able to do it because he’s a supremely fit individual and whilst someone like Pirlo might not look like an athlete, he had good stamina and was always looking to find pockets of space to control the game whereas Messi in his current guise especially when you watch him for Argentina is very static and has mediocre movement off the ball (in terms of midfield context) as he doesn’t seem to be able to put the hard yards in.

As a CAM - he will face less barriers but DLP/CM - tough ask. Someone like Maradona had more natural fitness or endurance than Messi and even coked up and over the hill - he could control midfield because he never stopped moving during a game. I see Messi as more of a final third player who comes alive when the ball reaches that part of the pitch but isn’t as engaged when the balls in the middle third (he switches off and likes to pick and choose when he goes into centre circle territory rather than being an ever present).

A free role in midfield might suit him where he just gets on the ball when he wants and has zero defensive responsibility as well as not being the man put in charge to control the game... basically a luxury player who can impact the game when he wants to. At club level I can see such a set up being tailored around him because he would still be so productive even in such a role but national team I find it hard to see it working unless the right players come through around him.
 
Peyroteo said:
I don't really believe in that, that will depend massively on injuries and how their bodies hold up which is impossible to predict really. I think Ronaldo's the much more likely player to be successful at adapting to a different role and that Messi will retire in Barcelona similarly to Iniesta and Xavi while Ronaldo is more likely to change teams and continue playing if his level drops a bit. Plus, Ronaldo has a contract with Juve until he's 37, Messi has one until he's 34. In that sense I believe he can last for longer, but it's usually injuries that end up dictating what happens at the end of a career.

I was just arguing the point, not really arguing against you in particular ;)
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As you know that isn't the determinant factor to perform at the high level. I can see him performing with Juventus untill 2020. After that its inevitable his performances will drop. Regarding Messi I don't think its necessarly the same situation as Xavi or Iniesta, but we shall see.
 
Peyroteo said:
They get exposed if the press doesn't work and it's easy to find holes to play out of it which is easy to do if the opponents are passengers and are barely a threat on the counter. You can't just say that the defense will get exposed and drilled if the team can't hold the ball in attack for most of it... most teams don't do that and they don't conede 7 a game because of it. If you need over 70% possession to not expose the defense then something is wrong, the team has to be comfortable to play without the ball too and you don't need to have it far from goal all the time so the defense doesn't get exposed. There are other ways to play the game.

Don't get me wrong though, Barcelona clearly need to upgrade their defense and it's been the biggest problem this season by far. Especially in comparison to last year, it should get better once Umtiti gets back though.

Why? Why the hell would it be exposed? As long as you defend with numbers of course it won't be exposed.

Look at Juventus, 90% of the game is played away from their attacking third, they rarely get over 60% possession even against the small italian teams and they still control things defensively. Bonucci and Cancelo aren't exactly great at defending either.
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Well because you need great defenders to play like that, and no one in our squad is close to the level Puyol, Abidal and Alves had 10 years ago for example, not even Umtiti at his best.

Even those guys struggled with the #1 way to go to counter Barcelona, if we pressed high they just had to kick the ball to the back of our defenders with a couple fast players, that's how Mou beated us with Inter or Real Madrid, Di Matteo with Chelsea (Di Maria's cross to ronnie in the Cup, Ramires goal, Torres goal, two of the 3 goals Inter put on us in 2009, too many instances of what happened to us when our pressing was bad, and we had better defenders against that, I's rather not imagine Pique, Alba and Roberto dealing with a high line like the one we had with Xavi, Iniesta, Pedro, Messi and Villa.

Even with Cancelo and Bonucci, they still have Chiellini, De Sciglio in some games, and a midfield with Betancour, Pjanic and Khedira (well, Khedira sometimes) + Matuidi, that midfield can help their defense way better than ours, we're just using Leo to do one of the basics of Cruyff football, keep the ball in control so you don't have to face the rival team coming at you in waves, Allegri probably has Juventus set up for that better than Valverde ever could.

Peyroteo said:
Dembele is being misused exactly the same way Alcacer was being misused, he's one of the most obvious talents I've ever seen. He'll either be the best player in the world or not very far from it in a few years. He's a player made to play in transition and wing play, playing in a slow possession team that rarely crosses the ball. He was being given the reigns of the team by letting him come to the middle and have the ball more often instead of actually playing a style of football that suits him somewhat.

It's like the Dybala and Messi situation with Argentina, you can blame Dybala for not being adaptable enough to make it work since Messi is the better player but making it work for the team is the responsability of all players. It shouldn't just be the worse player adapting so the best player can be at his best. Things keep going like this and one year from now Dybala won't be starting for Argentina and Dembele won't be starting for Barcelona.
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You have some points there, but we could also ask Messi what would he play if he could choose his position and style, maybe he's coming to the mid because our midfielders have lacked control for years (thank god for Arthur), or he'd like to remain as a false 9 with Suarez on the wing like in the first games they played, until Lucho had to put Suarez as a 9 because he can't adapt to the wing.

There's a lot of players in our squad that aren't suited to our playstyle or Leo's skillset, but that's a problem from the sporting direction, not because they have to be shoehorned around Messi doing what he pleases, he's the first one that takes a step to the wing, forward or deeper if the team needs it.
 
Ishdalar said:
You have some points there, but we could also ask Messi what would he play if he could choose his position and style, maybe he's coming to the mid because our midfielders have lacked control for years (thank god for Arthur), or he'd like to remain as a false 9 with Suarez on the wing like in the first games they played, until Lucho had to put Suarez as a 9 because he can't adapt to the wing.

There's a lot of players in our squad that aren't suited to our playstyle or Leo's skillset, but that's a problem from the sporting direction, not because they have to be shoehorned around Messi doing what he pleases, he's the first one that takes a step to the wing, forward or deeper if the team needs it.
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Can't upvote this enough. It was also Messi's idea to move Suarez not Lucho's. Messi is constantly having to adapt to his teammates, not the other way around. He's been moved all over. Dybala for the NT can only play in Messi's spot otherwise he's a fish out of water. Messi has been constantly adapting to whatever his team needs from him. I don't think he wants to play the deep for Argentina but he has no choice. He often has to finish the plays he starts up.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2769753-leo-messi-30-how-he-has-reinvented-his-game
 
Raees said:
Agree with your points on Messi not being able to become Xavi or Pirlo - the biggest problem is his stamina rather like Rooney. Messi does have the passing game both short and long to become a CM but his inability to constantly move throughout a game (which you need to do in CM) would render him obsolete at the highest level if he tried to transition into such a role.

Someone like Giggs with half his ability was able to do it because he’s a supremely fit individual and whilst someone like Pirlo might not look like an athlete, he had good stamina and was always looking to find pockets of space to control the game whereas Messi in his current guise especially when you watch him for Argentina is very static and has mediocre movement off the ball (in terms of midfield context) as he doesn’t seem to be able to put the hard yards in.

As a CAM - he will face less barriers but DLP/CM - tough ask. Someone like Maradona had more natural fitness or endurance than Messi and even coked up and over the hill - he could control midfield because he never stopped moving during a game. I see Messi as more of a final third player who comes alive when the ball reaches that part of the pitch but isn’t as engaged when the balls in the middle third (he switches off and likes to pick and choose when he goes into centre circle territory rather than being an ever present).

A free role in midfield might suit him where he just gets on the ball when he wants and has zero defensive responsibility as well as not being the man put in charge to control the game... basically a luxury player who can impact the game when he wants to. At club level I can see such a set up being tailored around him because he would still be so productive even in such a role but national team I find it hard to see it working unless the right players come through around him.
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Just let him do what Scholes ended up doing. He's do it in his sleep.
 
I think he’ll benefit most from a coach who Figures out how to make a fast, dynamic team that drags defenders out of position and leaves Messi close to goal in a true number 9 role.
 
Porto's stadium celebrates 15 years. It's inauguration friendly was the first time Messi played for the senior Barcelona team. feck I'm old.
 
Just saw this pop up on the soccer reddit. Henry on the best goal he's personally seen Messi score.

 
Arbitrium said:
Always found Henry dramatizes a bit too much with his nostalgia.
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Yeah well he knows a bit about kicking a ball and i agree with him. Probably not the best goal for us the average fan but i agree what henry says. Thats not normal. It was a subtle, effective but ridiculous flick to score that goal
 
DrRodo said:
Yeah well he knows a bit about kicking a ball and i agree with him. Probably not the best goal for us the average fan but i agree what henry says. Thats not normal. It was a subtle, effective but ridiculous flick to score that goal
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Not saying it wasn’t, more just an observation on Henry’s narration style.

I have always found this to be his most unexplainable goal. I have no idea how he was able to do this and it was clearly deliberate. Go to 38 seconds for the best angle.

 
SteveW said:
Just let him do what Scholes ended up doing. He's do it in his sleep.
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This!!! All these idiots pontificating about passing and stamina and lack of movement - enough already. This guy could play there in his sleep and anyone that doesn't think so is A) stupid or B) one of Ronaldo's legion of fans.
 
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T_Model101 said:
His new contract has absolutely destroyed Barcelona's wage structure right now.
77% of income is going on wages, utterly unsustainable
15% of the entire bill going on Messi
Probably the best player ever but if they had any sense they'd have sold him to Citeh for a mega fee and looked to build for the future
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Think it's prestige at this point although Messi is still generally still effective on the pitch in terms of goals and assists.

Isn't the plan for him to play a couple more seasons there and then at 33-34 go back and play a year or two in Argentina with Newells? The premier league thing hasn't been on for years imo.
 
Arbitrium said:
Not saying it wasn’t, more just an observation on Henry’s narration style.

I have always found this to be his most unexplainable goal. I have no idea how he was able to do this and it was clearly deliberate. Go to 38 seconds for the best angle.

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That little bounce off the ground is unreal :wenger:
 


I've never seen a player who understands the game like Messi. He must have the highest IQ in football ever. This, considering he decides what to do in half a second. One thing is to think the game while jogging, and another is doing it so quickly and surrounded by people. He almost always finds the best choice, like if he was watching it from the stands. That's the most incredible thing about him, he really is a genius like Da Vinci or Mozart but in the sport. He's one second ahead of the rest.
 
Remember this game at Chelsea. Apparently Mourinho had the rough surface coarsened even more to foil Barca, Messi still roasts del Horno who just totally doesn't know what to do and simply bull charges into him (getting a second yellow). Andy Gray remarks that if Messi learns how to play the game a bit more he'll become unplayable.

Linked video shows Messi a year later destroying Roberto Carlos. This is only really worth watching for Carlos falling over at 0.43 as Messi does the feint he destroyed Nani/Giggs (?) with in the CL final.
 
Didn't score yesterday. Played well but not at his best. Still there was a moment when he nutmegged Filipe Luis with his back to him:confused:
 
Fergietime@99 said:
Didn't score yesterday. Played well but not at his best. Still there was a moment when he nutmegged Filipe Luis with his back to him:confused:
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I didn't think he was very good yesterday (by his standards) - some nice dribbles but his passing and touch were a little off at times. Also tried a nutmeg when it was like 4 vs 3 on the counter in the dying moments, baffling decision.
 
Worst I’ve seen him in a while yesterday, some of the decision making was weird
 
MalcolmTucker said:
I didn't think he was very good yesterday (by his standards) - some nice dribbles but his passing and touch were a little off at times. Also tried a nutmeg when it was like 4 vs 3 on the counter in the dying moments, baffling decision.
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Well I switched off at around 87 minutes and I agree he was not at his best. But had 2 or 3 brilliant moments. The one I mentioned was the first time I saw someone do that
 
Fantastic skill. Anyone else doing that, you'd say it was an accident. The speed he turns tells you he meant it to go through the legs like that.
 




Outrageous goal.

It's a sham he wasn't shortlisted for the Ballon D'Or or FIFA POTY. A complete sham and embarrassment.
 
He continues to make the incredible seem routine. A joy to watch.
 
Ishdalar said:
He's shown for years that he's able to adapt to other players around him, Neymar, Suarez, he even let Dembele take care of things at the start of the season with him playing a more central role while Messi was just playing around, but it didn't work so the time came to take the reins again and Dembele got benched. A 100+M player that gets the reins of a team with Messi and fails to show any kind of positive emotion in the field is a big problem to motivate the squad.
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You do realize that without Dembele this season, Barcelona's season already looks much, much worse?
 
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