Lionel Messi

wub1234 said:
You see, this is where these threads and arguments get ridiculous for me.

Messi didn't have his best night against Roma. He had an absolute blinder in the league, he was excellent in the group stages of the CL, he scored clinically with his one chance in the first-leg against Chelsea, he ran the second-leg against Chelsea, scoring 2 and setting up 1 brilliantly for Dembele, and then played well in the 4-1 first-leg win against Roma.

Aren't the rest of the team entitled to stand up at some stage? He has one indifferent game...oh, it's all Messi's fault! That's the first thing.

Then the second thing is...imagine that game had gone the way it did, poor Barcelona performance, Roma go 2-0 up, they're vulnerable now. And imagine instead when they took the corner for the third goal, it had simply been headed away by Barcelona, they cleared the ball, and managed to hang on to win 4-3 on aggregate. Would that mean Messi is a better player than he is now? Of course not. This makes absolutely no logical sense whatsoever.

Let's say Ronaldo had exactly the same game that he did in the CL final, largely ineffective, and let's say Bale hadn't scored a brilliant goal, and Karius hadn't had a nightmare. It had finished 1-1 and Liverpool had won on penalties. Would that mean Ronaldo is a worse player than he is now? Of course not. If Ronaldo had won one more CL medal than he is now, would it make him a better player? No, it would not.

That's why using team trophies as an argument in the quality of an individual player makes somewhere between little and no sense. You have to judge individual players based on what they do, and are capable of doing, on the field of play. Not whether or not they win trophies. No individual player will ever control whether or not he (or she, for that matter) wins trophies.
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I’m not putting all the blame on Messi for the Roma disaster. I think Valverde’s tactics were some of the worst of the decade in that second leg. But I do think more players should’ve stepped up (not just Messi). Umtiti fell off a cliff last season when he and Barca were far apart on contract negotiations at the time and Barca were slumping hard defensively.

At the end of the day, Roma was one of the biggest blemishes in Barca history.


As for Ronaldo, I agree with you completely. It’s an absolute luxury to barely play in an NT final and ur team still win it, be a ghost in multiple major finals in CL and still come away with trophies. This isn’t to say Ronaldo wasn’t immense in getting his teams to those points but he had had an awful lot of amazing luck with everything going his way while Messi has had the opposite.

If Messi merely plays average Barca lose against decent sides 95% of the time. With Ronaldo he has had other teammates step up in the later stages of these tournaments when he has his off games.
 
Needham said:
It should really be Messi v Maradona.
Check out the kind of treatment Maradona used to get.

The replay of the run he goes on at the 13 second mark alone should be enough. Just blatant attempts to hack and hurt him at every turn. Sure, Messi is a genius and would have adapted. But in that era Spanish (and Italian) football, he would not have had remotely like the free reign to receive the ball unmolested anywhere on the pitch and you could wipe several hundred goals off his total.
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Tbf (and I don’t disagree with you that Football was way more savage back in the day - there was a clip of Vinnie Jones and what he got away with on here a week or so ago!) Messi does get kicked and hacked quite a bit and he tries to stay on his feet as much as possible.
 
Daysleeper said:
I’m not putting all the blame on Messi for the Roma disaster.
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No, I know you're not, I'm just saying that people with an agenda do. We can't ever judge an individual player based on one result, or one game, or what his team achieves. There are too many variables over which he has no control. All we can do is judge him on what he can do, and how well he plays over a period of time. As soon as you start saying...Messi won this, and Ronaldo won that, it's ridiculous because there are just too many factors that they can't even influence.
 
wub1234 said:
No, I know you're not, I'm just saying that people with an agenda do. We can't ever judge an individual player based on one result, or one game, or what his team achieves. There are too many variables over which he has no control. All we can do is judge him on what he can do, and how well he plays over a period of time. As soon as you start saying...Messi won this, and Ronaldo won that, it's ridiculous because there are just too many factors that they can't even influence.
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Spot on
 
Needham said:
It should really be Messi v Maradona.
Check out the kind of treatment Maradona used to get.

The replay of the run he goes on at the 13 second mark alone should be enough. Just blatant attempts to hack and hurt him at every turn. Sure, Messi is a genius and would have adapted. But in that era Spanish (and Italian) football, he would not have had remotely like the free reign to receive the ball unmolested anywhere on the pitch and you could wipe several hundred goals off his total.
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There's like a whole youtube section of videos of career-ending tackles against Messi. He's the most abused player in recent history. Just because the refs give more fouls these days doesn't mean he doesn't take the tackles and goes "unmolested anywhere on the pitch".
 
Some of the naysayers are getting really old and repetitive.

First, it was "He needs to prove himself in the EPL". This man alone has scored 22 goals in 29 games against top 6 English teams. Do you not think he wouldn't score week in week out if he were to play in the EPL against minnows like Newcastle, Burnley, Southampton. Players like Aguero are still scoring consistently against them.

"He cannot do without Iniesta and Xavi"
No doubt Xavi and Iniesta are part of the golden generation of Barcelona. But Barcelona are also playing one of the most difficult and riskiest style of plays that requires so much intricacies/technicality/accuracy that any other players would find it hard to pull off. Not to mention from 2013 to 2014, Xavi was clearly past his prime. Iniesta still has little magic but physically he was still struggling and needed rests from time to time. Now Iniesta is gone and Messi is still the same as he was before.

"He cannot do without Neymar." This was the most popular argument during the Neymar saga. Makes me laugh because Neymar was so dependent on Messi, it's crazy. Not to mention his antics on the field makes him more a liability. Year after he left, Messi doing even better than before.

"He cannot do without Barcelona, which is the best team in the world". Clearly people are still living in the past. If Barcelona were the best in the past 4-5 years, why would they struggle to even get past the early KO stages in the CL every year and have to depend on Messi to put out performances every week. Not to mention they have been playing the likes of Andre Gomes, Arda Turan, so many players that fail to make the cut. And the mediocre coaches that make things the team depend on Messi more than before. Tata, Lucho, Valverde, most of them are average at best. The Roma incident takes the cake.

"Ronaldo win games, Messi does not." Just because Ronaldo has a better recent UCL record, doesnt mean he is a game changer. Madrid with Zidane was arguably the better side in recent years that has other players stepped up in crucial moments. Ronaldo played his part but he depended so much on services on a platter by his teammates it's insane. From midfield to defence, he was covered and all he need to do is score goals. Dont get me wrong, he is a phenomenal goalscorer, but to say he is the only one who can influence games is far fetched. Ronaldo does have the height advantage/jumping ability to make him a lethal in the box goalscorer, but anyone who watches Messi knows he is a more complete player than any other that makes him second to none. From dribbling, passing, to scoring, his awareness on the pitch, it's unmatched.

Barcelona had hardly anyone who stepped up, even Luis Suarez has hardly scored in the CL since 2015. Neymar had a good performance against PSG and that's about it.

" He doesnt have a World Cup".
Incredibly flawed argument. If that's the metric for gauging a player's abilities, I'm pretty sure most players are "better" than Messi and Ronaldo.

Lastly, "Can he perform on a rainy night at Stoke?" Now that's what I really want to know.
 
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Its got to be testament to the level he is at that he scores that goal today and no one mentions it in his thread. Any other player in world football, that goal goes on their career highlight.

We will never see something like him again in our lifetime.
 
RedStarUnited said:
Its got to be testament to the level he is at that he scores that goal today and no one mentions it in his thread. Any other player in world football, that goal goes on their career highlight.

We will never see something like him again in our lifetime.
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Got a link by any chance?
 
wub1234 said:
Anyone who would question any aspect of his game at his stage either doesn't watch Messi play regularly, doesn't understand football, or is incapable of being objective.
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And this is literally why no fanbase is more annoying or cringeworthy than the Messi fan base. Thanks for summarising your entire lot so beautifully in one sentence.
 
Moby said:
And this is literally why no fanbase is more annoying or cringeworthy than the Messi fan base. Thanks for summarising your entire lot so beautifully in one sentence.
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Couldn't agree more. This knowier-than-thou attitude of Messi fans is the most unbecoming aspect of this debate.
 
Moby said:
And this is literally why no fanbase is more annoying or cringeworthy than the Messi fan base. Thanks for summarising your entire lot so beautifully in one sentence.
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Prometheus said:
Couldn't agree more. This knowier-than-thou attitude of Messi fans is the most unbecoming aspect of this debate.
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A lot of us say this not because we're Messi fans, but because it's so obvious. All anybody has to do is watch him play.
 
In Rainbows said:
A lot of us say this not because we're Messi fans, but because it's so obvious. All anybody has to do is watch him play.
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Yeah, you're connoisseurs of the beautiful game with special insight that those of us who happen to disagree with your assessments simply lack! Really, you guys make the whole Messi fandom thing sound cultish.
 
Prometheus said:
Yeah, you're connoisseurs of the beautiful game with special insight that those of us who happen to disagree with your assessments simply lack! Really, you guys make the whole Messi fandom thing sound cultish.
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What are you on about. It has nothing to do with the beautiful game as if it matters that Messi is pleasing on the eye. It has everything to do with performance. It's very obvious to see Messi is the best player. Hell, even if you don't watch it, all the attacking stats point towards Messi.
 
In Rainbows said:
What are you on about. It has nothing to do with the beautiful game as if it matters that Messi is pleasing on the eye. It has everything to do with performance. It's very obvious to see Messi is the best player. Hell, even if you don't watch it, all the attacking stats point towards Messi.
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The beautiful game = football. You seem to be under the impression that it means something else.
 
Prometheus said:
The beautiful game = football. You seem to be under the impression that it means something else.
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Don't be purposely dense. You know full well the implication was to mock people who think football must be played a certain way.
 
Moby said:
And this is literally why no fanbase is more annoying or cringeworthy than the Messi fan base. Thanks for summarising your entire lot so beautifully in one sentence.
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I agree. I love Messi, I am a fan of Messi but I can accept others having other opinions. Being obtuse isn't healthy
 
Moby said:
And this is literally why no fanbase is more annoying or cringeworthy than the Messi fan base. Thanks for summarising your entire lot so beautifully in one sentence.
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Ask any professional footballer, and they will tell you exactly the same thing. Countless professional footballers have stated this time and time again on TV. Not sure how you missed it.

Also, I'm not a fan of Messi in particular. I just like to see sport conducted at the highest level possible, and with a certain elegance, élan and insouciance. That's why I also like watching Roger Federer and Ronnie O' Sullivan, whereas Nadal doesn't appeal to me at all, although I recognise him to be a great player.

Messi emphatically does this. This is why virtually everyone in the world loves watching him, and reveres him. It's really only butthurt Ronaldo fans / United fans who have to try to find some way to criticise Messi. Everyone else that I have ever encountered loves Messi, loves watching Messi, and recognises that he's a total genius.
 
wub1234 said:
Ask any professional footballer, and they will tell you exactly the same thing. Countless professional footballers have stated this time and time again on TV. Not sure how you missed it.

Also, I'm not a fan of Messi in particular. I just like to see sport conducted at the highest level possible, and with a certain elegance, élan and insouciance. That's why I also like watching Roger Federer and Ronnie O' Sullivan, whereas Nadal doesn't appeal to me at all, although I recognise him to be a great player.

Messi emphatically does this. This is why virtually everyone in the world loves watching him, and reveres him. It's really only butthurt Ronaldo fans / United fans who have to try to find some way to criticise Messi. Everyone else that I have ever encountered loves Messi, loves watching Messi, and recognises that he's a total genius.
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Think that's a little bit too onesided. There are fans out there who simply prefer a more physical and straight-forward style of play. For me, the Dutch/Barcelona style of play is not only more appealing on the eye but also far superior. Of course there is never a guarantee for winning a great tournament but since Guardiola's Barca emerged, the vast majority of titles were won by teams that utilized at least great parts of this style (and in the past, some of the greatest teams followed Cruyff's school of thought, too). But still: Not everyone wants to see football as a science or art or whatever. Some have a more down-to-earth like attitude and don't want to overcomplicate things. Opinions differ and although these are wrong if you ask me but denying their existence is quite ignorant. There are definitely many people out there who are neither Ronaldo nor United nor Madrid fans and still prefer him over Messi. I'd even say Madrid and United can thank Cristiano for a considerable amount of their international fans. At least here in Germany, Madrid fans skyrocketed after they signed him.
 
Zehner said:
Think that's a little bit too onesided.
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It is not. Anyone can like anyone that they want. That's your personal choice. My point is that people on here continually bring up ridiculous arguments about Messi's game. Someone earlier on stated that his style of play is outdated. Someone else questioned his passing ability. It's literally just trying to find some way to criticise him because you can't face reality.

Whereas what I said in my previous post is not extreme, it is only what has been echoed by countless professionals. Indeed, this is what Winks said about Messi just days ago:

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/fo...ssi-as-tottenham-taken-apart-by-a3953441.html

“I did enjoy it,” said the midfielder. “To play against him was an honour. The result takes away a lot of the enjoyment from the game, but in years to come, when I look back and say I played against — in my opinion — the greatest player to ever play football, it will be a proud moment.

“It’s so difficult to reflect on that right now because we’ve lost and, ultimately, that’s the most important thing. I’m gutted.

“The only way I can really describe [facing him] is he’s just completed football. The man just knows where everybody is. His weight of pass is just exceptional. He’s just special. But everyone who has played against him has said the same thing for years.
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Now if I had said that, I would be accused of being a fanboy, which I just have been! I didn't even say something as strong as "Messi has completed football". What you are seeing there, though, is the normal and quite correct recognition of the best player in the world, and probably the best player ever, by a colleague who understands this.

That's why I find it preposterous for people to sit here trying to concoct specious ways to criticise Messi, when all of his peers already recognise him to be an absolute genius.
 
wub1234 said:
It is not. Anyone can like anyone that they want. That's your personal choice. My point is that people on here continually bring up ridiculous arguments about Messi's game. Someone earlier on stated that his style of play is outdated. Someone else questioned his passing ability. It's literally just trying to find some way to criticise him because you can't face reality.

Whereas what I said in my previous post is not extreme, it is only what has been echoed by countless professionals. Indeed, this is what Winks said about Messi just days ago:

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/fo...ssi-as-tottenham-taken-apart-by-a3953441.html

Now if I had said that, I would be accused of being a fanboy, which I just have been! I didn't even say something as strong as "Messi has completed football". What you are seeing there, though, is the normal and quite correct recognition of the best player in the world, and probably the best player ever, by a colleague who understands this.

That's why I find it preposterous for people to sit here trying to concoct specious ways to criticise Messi, when all of his peers already recognise him to be an absolute genius.
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Yes, and on the flip side of the coin you have also pro players saying the same about Ronaldo, e.g. Chiellini.

See, I'm generally of the same opinion and find it hard to understand how people cannot come to the conclusion that he's the best of his generation (since I find it hard to compare across generations) but you are saying that these opinions do not exist which is wrong, plain and simple, because they are there.

And this is because people have different priorities. I think it is superficial to judge a player on team trophies and goal records, others don't and they don't need to be a CR7 fan to do that.
 
Zehner said:
Yes, and on the flip side of the coin you have also pro players saying the same about Ronaldo, e.g. Chiellini.

See, I'm generally of the same opinion and find it hard to understand how people cannot come to the conclusion that he's the best of his generation (since I find it hard to compare across generations) but you are saying that these opinions do not exist which is wrong, plain and simple, because they are there.

And this is because people have different priorities. I think it is superficial to judge a player on team trophies and goal records, others don't and they don't need to be a CR7 fan to do that.
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I'm not sure if you've noticed, but Chiellini is Ronaldo's team-mate. Some executive at Juventus said that Ronaldo was the best player in the world because he's humble. Yes, humble.

And I've discussed this already, but...it is superficial (I would rather describe it as completely lacking in logic) to judge the quality of a player based on team trophies in particular. Because you're giving them credit for something that involves so many factors that they can never influence, let alone control. You could pick endless examples, but, for example, Buffon has never won the Champions League. Does that mean he's a rubbish goalkeeper? Does it mean that goalkeepers who have won the Champions League, Jerzy Dudek for example, are better than him? Does Buffon always choke and fail to deliver on the biggest stage? No, of course not. All of these arguments are preposterous. Yet they are exactly the arguments levelled at Messi, who has been an unbelievable performer and won endless trophies.

However, that isn't really the issue. I know that some people think Ronaldo is better than Messi. This can never be definitively proven one way or the other. It is, to some extent, a matter of opinion. I find it incomprehensible how anyone could possibly consider Ronaldo to be a better footballer than Messi, but that is their opinion, and they are entitled to it.

My initial point was simply that you cannot question the quality of Messi's game. It is farcical to do so. That's why Harry Winks has just joined the chorus of professionals and former professionals who widely acknowledge that Messi is the most complete player in the world, and probably ever. To criticise any aspect of Messi's game at this point in time is just a joke. And if the fact that literally hundreds of professionals will virtually queue up to heap praise on him, holding him literally in awe, doesn't illustrate this, I honestly don't know what will.
 
wub1234 said:
I'm not sure if you've noticed, but Chiellini is Ronaldo's team-mate. Some executive at Juventus said that Ronaldo was the best player in the world because he's humble. Yes, humble.

And I've discussed this already, but...it is superficial (I would rather describe it as completely lacking in logic) to judge the quality of a player based on team trophies in particular. Because you're giving them credit for something that involves so many factors that they can never influence, let alone control. You could pick endless examples, but, for example, Buffon has never won the Champions League. Does that mean he's a rubbish goalkeeper? Does it mean that goalkeepers who have won the Champions League, Jerzy Dudek for example, are better than him? Does Buffon always choke and fail to deliver on the biggest stage? No, of course not. All of these arguments are preposterous. Yet they are exactly the arguments levelled at Messi, who has been an unbelievable performer and won endless trophies.

However, that isn't really the issue. I know that some people think Ronaldo is better than Messi. This can never be definitively proven one way or the other. It is, to some extent, a matter of opinion. I find it incomprehensible how anyone could possibly consider Ronaldo to be a better footballer than Messi, but that is their opinion, and they are entitled to it.

My initial point was simply that you cannot question the quality of Messi's game. It is farcical to do so. That's why Harry Winks has just joined the chorus of professionals and former professionals who widely acknowledge that Messi is the most complete player in the world, and probably ever. To criticise any aspect of Messi's game at this point in time is just a joke. And if the fact that literally hundreds of professionals will virtually queue up to heap praise on him, holding him literally in awe, doesn't illustrate this, I honestly don't know what will.
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Dude, I'm not really sure what you are failing to understand here. Ronaldo and Messi are two of the greatest players ever to play the game. Are you suggesting that anybody who likes Ronaldo more than Messi is not a real football fan but someone with agenda? I mean, I'm genuinely surprised that I have to even ask you this
 
fishfingers15 said:
Dude, I'm not really sure what you are failing to understand here. Ronaldo and Messi are two of the greatest players ever to play the game. Are you suggesting that anybody who likes Ronaldo more than Messi is not a real football fan but someone with agenda? I mean, I'm genuinely surprised that I have to even ask you this
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I'm also genuinely surprised that you have to ask me this, as I said:

"I know that some people think Ronaldo is better than Messi. This can never be definitively proven one way or the other. It is, to some extent, a matter of opinion. I find it incomprehensible how anyone could possibly consider Ronaldo to be a better footballer than Messi, but that is their opinion, and they are entitled to it."

Also, I'm not in the Ronaldo thread saying "Ronaldo can't pass, dribble, etc, as well as Messi, he is a limited player compared to Messi". People who are fans of Ronaldo have to attempt to denigrate Messi. I assume because they simply can't accept that Messi is technically superior, and largely regarded to be a better footballer, almost universally among his peers and colleagues.
 
wub1234 said:
You see, this is where these threads and arguments get ridiculous for me.

Messi didn't have his best night against Roma. He had an absolute blinder in the league, he was excellent in the group stages of the CL, he scored clinically with his one chance in the first-leg against Chelsea, he ran the second-leg against Chelsea, scoring 2 and setting up 1 brilliantly for Dembele, and then played well in the 4-1 first-leg win against Roma.

Aren't the rest of the team entitled to stand up at some stage? He has one indifferent game...oh, it's all Messi's fault! That's the first thing.

Then the second thing is...imagine that game had gone the way it did, poor Barcelona performance, Roma go 2-0 up, they're vulnerable now. And imagine instead when they took the corner for the third goal, it had simply been headed away by Barcelona, they cleared the ball, and managed to hang on to win 4-3 on aggregate. Would that mean Messi is a better player than he is now? Of course not. This makes absolutely no logical sense whatsoever.

Let's say Ronaldo had exactly the same game that he did in the CL final, largely ineffective, and let's say Bale hadn't scored a brilliant goal, and Karius hadn't had a nightmare. It had finished 1-1 and Liverpool had won on penalties. Would that mean Ronaldo is a worse player than he is now? Of course not. If Ronaldo had won one more CL medal than he is now, would it make him a better player? No, it would not.

That's why using team trophies as an argument in the quality of an individual player makes somewhere between little and no sense. You have to judge individual players based on what they do, and are capable of doing, on the field of play. Not whether or not they win trophies. No individual player will ever control whether or not he (or she, for that matter) wins trophies.
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100% agree. For the last few years the Ballon D'or has basically been decided by which team wins the CL. It's beyond stupid
 
In Rainbows said:
What are you on about. It has nothing to do with the beautiful game as if it matters that Messi is pleasing on the eye. It has everything to do with performance. It's very obvious to see Messi is the best player. Hell, even if you don't watch it, all the attacking stats point towards Messi.
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It's actually not obvious at all. He is probably the most talented but football is a team game where what you do without the ball (not just in terms of running, tracking back, looking for space etc but also your attitude and leadership skills are arguably just as important qualities especially in big games). Essentially doing something beautifully doesn't make you make you a more impactful player than someone who does something prolifically but in a utilitarian style. Gerd Muller for example was a tap in merchant except the rate at which he tapped those goals in (in world cup and euro finals no less) was breathtaking even if it wasn't particularly pleasing on the eye.

The Ballon d'OR, once a brilliantly fair award, has been hijacked by t-shirt sellers for sometime, that no Spanish player won it during that period of dominance was criminal.
 
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thekman said:
The Ballon d'OR, once a brilliantly fair award, has been hijacked by t-shirt sellers for sometime, that no Spanish player won it during that period of dominance was criminal.
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Almost as criminal as CRonaldo winning in 2013. That was when the award lost it's magic.
 
thekman said:
The Ballon d'OR, once a brilliantly fair award, has been hijacked by t-shirt sellers for sometime, that no Spanish player won it during that period of dominance was criminal.
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What year could it have been fairly given to a Spanish player?
 
Could have sworn there was a world cup that year?

Iniesta has a case for several years where he was dynamite for both Barca and Spain. Same for Xavi. And Alonso. Same for Puyol and Ramos. Fact is, their lack of star power meant there was never a chance for any of them to seriously threaten the pecking order.

There is also this weird double standard where someone like Iniesta has his argument tainted because of the brilliance of his Spanish team-mates as if Messi and Ronaldo haven't been surrounded by dream team level talent at their clubs.
 
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I_live_cement said:


Messi was an alien in that period.

The award is for Player of the Year. He was the best player in the world by a mile.
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Thing is, either you avoid it to the best player of team that won the greatest trophy or you give it to the best player ignoring team achievements. In the first case the likes of Iniesta/Xavi, Robben/Ribery and Kroos/Neuer/whoever should've gotten at least four of these trophies. In the latter Messi would've probably been rewarded with 8 or 9 prizes already.

The idea of measuring individual brillance in team success is already stupid in itself vut they complete ridiculed the Ballon D'Or when they abandoned their criteria for publicit, purposes, completely shitting on continuity. Explain to me how Messi won it over Sneijder or Iniesta in 2010 and Cannavaro over Ronaldinho in 2006 with the same weighting of principles.

In short: Ballon D'Or was always stupid and it haa gotten even dumber in the last zen years.
 
Messi is a superior goalscoring version of Maradona and Platini. They had superior intangibles which especially showed at international level. Hypotheticals are flawed but switch Messi and Maradona and I still think Diego has a world cup and I still think Messi has none.
 
thekman said:
It's actually not obvious at all. He is probably the most talented but football is a team game where what you do without the ball (not just in terms of running, tracking back, looking for space etc but also your attitude and leadership skills are arguably just as important qualities especially in big games). Essentially doing something beautifully doesn't make you make you a more impactful player than someone who does something prolifically but in a utilitarian style. Gerd Muller for example was a tap in merchant except the rate at which he tapped those goals in (in world cup and euro finals no less) was breathtaking even if it wasn't particularly pleasing on the eye.

The Ballon d'OR, once a brilliantly fair award, has been hijacked by t-shirt sellers for sometime, that no Spanish player won it during that period of dominance was criminal.
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Your argument falls apart when you equate what Messi does to to "doing something beautifully." Messi is flat out production. There is no arguing against that. He'll score goals, he'll create many chances for your attackers, he'll unsettle your defense with dribbling, he'll help control the midfield battle, etc...

And he moves well off the ball in attack too. That's part of the reason why he scores a lot of goals.
 
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