Lionel Messi

tomaldinho1 said:
For me watching him he's just that little bit slower, little bit less dynamic and, although his apparent unhappiness might be a factor here, a lot less bothered. It's harder for him to change games against the better teams.

Ask yourself this. If his name wasn't Messi and he'd randomly just been found at an older age and you saw him with no prior knowledge this season, would you think he is the best footballer in the world? I'd personally think, who is this phenomenal player and how good must he have been in his pomp.

As said, I'm not saying he's past it, it's just that I would put a few choice players above him if we are hypothetically discussing who is the best signing for Pep's City. I'd think the same for United (probably even more so given how we play) and any other PL team.
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He's still number 1 in the CL on Whoscored (which is decent even if you know soccer "advanced" stats aren't that good yet) by a decent bit and by a mile in La Liga (Gerard Moreno is number 2 and plays on the right, surprised more people aren't pushing for him to be our stopgap RW until Diallo or Greenwood is ready to be full-time there, actually, could see Villareal, if Moreno pushes, agreeing to take a not insane amount of cash, like 25M, Juan Mata as a replacement for a year or two, and also a year of say Dalot on loan).

But yeah I think gun to my head I'd rather have Mbappe for the sheer panic he creates in defenses. Maybe Van Dijk when healthy isn't crazy to put in this bracket. Nobody else for me is up there quite yet cuz like De Bruyne isn't good defensively and nobody at Madrid is that dominant, Cristiano and Lewandowski (and I guess Neymar maybe?) probably in this 4-6 range too.
 
OK_computer said:
I have seen every single Barca match this season and I stand with my statement. He was invisible against Real Madrid (can't remember the last time he had a good El Clasico), Atletico, Sevilla (twice), Juve (0-3 defeat)...

He scores a lot against teams like Cadiz, Alaves and the likes. Messi is being utilized they way he wants to be utilized. If you actually think Messi is sacrifising himself for the good of the team then I'm afraid it's you who doesn't understand the sport. Me being Real Madrid hardly disqualifies me from having an unbiased opinion on Messi. I can easily admit he used to give me nightmares and is one of the best players to ever play this sport, but he is simply not that good anymore.
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this aged poorly
 
Nice goal vs Sevilla and got an assist as well. He might be well past his best, but even so he's still La liga topscorer.
 
GifLord said:
:lol:
Most goals scored against
Sevilla 38
Atletico 32
Valencia 29
Real Madrid 26
Espanyol, Betis, Osasuna 25
Athletic 24
...
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Nobody with half a brain will deny that Messi was a big game player for a long time and did score for fun against every side in the world. But the last 2 years he was not really influential in those big games. Just look against which teams he got his scorer last season and this in La Liga.

NasirTimothy said:
That is true though
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What position do you think Barca would reach without Messi?
 
PaulScholes99 said:
Nobody with half a brain will deny that Messi was a big game player for a long time and did score for fun against every side in the world. But the last 2 years he was not really influential in those big games. Just look against which teams he got his scorer last season and this in La Liga.



What position do you think Barca would reach without Messi?
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Considering how shit they are, I think they wouldn't be in be the title race this season without Messi. I don't think they would have been for the past 2 or 3 previous seasons as well. A point could be made though that without his wages they might have made adequate replacements, but they've spent a fortune on shit anyway for quite a while now.
 
matherto said:
They're shit against Barca and they were shit against Madrid with Ronaldo, he used to score a boatload against them too.

They're only world beaters in the Europa League.
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they’re consistently a top 4 team in la liga and beat some damn good teams in Europa:wenger:
 
Daysleeper said:
they’re consistently a top 4 team in la liga and beat some damn good teams in Europa:wenger:
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Like I said, they're consistently world beaters in the Europa.

Up against Barca or Real though, they're utter bitches, just like the rest of La Liga. Looking at their results against a Barca team with Messi in it over the years is as embarrassing as Everton against Liverpool, especially at the Camp Nou where they're usually cannon fodder for Messi to score a bunch. It was the same with Ronaldo who had a particular liking for Sevilla during his time at Madrid.

1-1 in Seville, 2-0 loss in Barcelona (2020-21)
0-0 in Seville, 4-0 loss in Barcelona (2019-20)
4-2 loss in both games to Barca (2018-19)
2-2 in Seville. 2-1 loss in Barcelona (2017-18)
2-1 loss in Seville, 3-0 loss in Barcelona (2016-17)
2-1 win in Seville, 2-1 loss in Barcelona (2015-16)
2-2 in Seville. 5-1 loss in Barcelona (2014-15)
4-1 loss in Seville, 3-2 loss in Barcelona (2013-14)
3-2 loss in Seville, 2-1 loss in Barcelona (2012-13)
2-0 loss in Seville. 0-0 in Barcelona (2011-12)
1-1 in Seville, 5-0 loss in Barcelona (2010-11)
3-2 loss in Seville, 4-0 loss in Barcelona (2009-10)
3-0 loss in Seville, 4-0 loss in Barcelona (2008-09)
1-1 in Seville, 2-1 loss in Barcelona (2007-08)
2-1 win in Seville, 3-1 loss in Barcelona (2006-07)
3-2 win in Seville, 2-1 loss in Barcelona (2005-06)

3 wins, 7 draws and 22 losses. 15 losses out of 16 at the Camp Nou with a GD of -36 there, not putting up any sort of fight. Easily stat-pad territory.
 
matherto said:
Like I said, they're consistently world beaters in the Europa.

Up against Barca or Real though, they're utter bitches, just like the rest of La Liga. Looking at their results against a Barca team with Messi in it over the years is as embarrassing as Everton against Liverpool, especially at the Camp Nou where they're usually cannon fodder for Messi to score a bunch. It was the same with Ronaldo who had a particular liking for Sevilla during his time at Madrid.

1-1 in Seville, 2-0 loss in Barcelona (2020-21)
0-0 in Seville, 4-0 loss in Barcelona (2019-20)
4-2 loss in both games to Barca (2018-19)
2-2 in Seville. 2-1 loss in Barcelona (2017-18)
2-1 loss in Seville, 3-0 loss in Barcelona (2016-17)
2-1 win in Seville, 2-1 loss in Barcelona (2015-16)
2-2 in Seville. 5-1 loss in Barcelona (2014-15)
4-1 loss in Seville, 3-2 loss in Barcelona (2013-14)
3-2 loss in Seville, 2-1 loss in Barcelona (2012-13)
2-0 loss in Seville. 0-0 in Barcelona (2011-12)
1-1 in Seville, 5-0 loss in Barcelona (2010-11)
3-2 loss in Seville, 4-0 loss in Barcelona (2009-10)
3-0 loss in Seville, 4-0 loss in Barcelona (2008-09)
1-1 in Seville, 2-1 loss in Barcelona (2007-08)
2-1 win in Seville, 3-1 loss in Barcelona (2006-07)
3-2 win in Seville, 2-1 loss in Barcelona (2005-06)

3 wins, 7 draws and 22 losses. 15 losses out of 16 at the Camp Nou with a GD of -36 there, not putting up any sort of fight. Easily stat-pad territory.
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So against whom should Messi score from open play via a solo run effort or long shot, without being assisted, that would count as a real goals for you
Since I am sure you will considered a comeback against PSG also stat padding, not anything special since PSG are perennial chokers.

Messi has the most goals this year of all top league players. To consider it merely stat padding is just disregarding him, because he ain't scoring hattricks to win games.
 
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He's become a joke this season. Will it tarnish his reputation? Certainly socialists think so.
 
OK_computer said:
At this point of time Messi is a flat track bully. I know some of his fanboys won't admit it but it's true. All of his CL goals came from penalty spot and he hasn't scored a single goal against better teams (bar penalty goals). He is also wastefull has more shots per game than any other player in Euro top 5 leagues.
Not to mention his defensive contibution is pathetic and is along with comicaly bad defence one of the reasons why Barca can't win against better teams. I honestly thing he is having some pshylogical problems. As soons as things don't go his way he just quits, there is absolutely no fight in him. He puts his head down and just stares in the distance. One of the worst captains in world football.
He is still a verry good player of course, but will be 34 in two months, he is visibly declining and he is not prepared to change his game. I would much rather have players like Haaland or Burno in my team and it's not even close.
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This is such a comically bad post that I don't even know what to say.
 
matherto said:
Like I said, they're consistently world beaters in the Europa.

Up against Barca or Real though, they're utter bitches, just like the rest of La Liga. Looking at their results against a Barca team with Messi in it over the years is as embarrassing as Everton against Liverpool, especially at the Camp Nou where they're usually cannon fodder for Messi to score a bunch. It was the same with Ronaldo who had a particular liking for Sevilla during his time at Madrid.

1-1 in Seville, 2-0 loss in Barcelona (2020-21)
0-0 in Seville, 4-0 loss in Barcelona (2019-20)
4-2 loss in both games to Barca (2018-19)
2-2 in Seville. 2-1 loss in Barcelona (2017-18)
2-1 loss in Seville, 3-0 loss in Barcelona (2016-17)
2-1 win in Seville, 2-1 loss in Barcelona (2015-16)
2-2 in Seville. 5-1 loss in Barcelona (2014-15)
4-1 loss in Seville, 3-2 loss in Barcelona (2013-14)
3-2 loss in Seville, 2-1 loss in Barcelona (2012-13)
2-0 loss in Seville. 0-0 in Barcelona (2011-12)
1-1 in Seville, 5-0 loss in Barcelona (2010-11)
3-2 loss in Seville, 4-0 loss in Barcelona (2009-10)
3-0 loss in Seville, 4-0 loss in Barcelona (2008-09)
1-1 in Seville, 2-1 loss in Barcelona (2007-08)
2-1 win in Seville, 3-1 loss in Barcelona (2006-07)
3-2 win in Seville, 2-1 loss in Barcelona (2005-06)

3 wins, 7 draws and 22 losses. 15 losses out of 16 at the Camp Nou with a GD of -36 there, not putting up any sort of fight. Easily stat-pad territory.
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How convenient you left out their Copa fixtures. In the 9 matches they played, they won 3 and drew 2. They just beat Barcelona in the Copa in the first leg 2-0.
 
The thing is the 4-1 loss to PSG by Barcelona.

It's the type of result that didnt happen when Xavi & Iniesta were playing. Now it happens every season with Messi being seen with :nervous: this type of face at the end of big matches.

They made that team for me. Messi is a GOAT but he was very lucky to have played with the spanish world cup team during their full career. The spanish world cup team end up retiring and luckily for Messi he has aged to the number that people dont expect him to be able to play with the numbers or type of performance that would help Barcelona win a title or UCL. Just as they say Barcelona miss the old quality of players & managers in the team - they never say that he was lucky to play with that type of consistent group of players during the time he was at his peak.

I really want him to move to a different club like PSG or City and help them win the league and CL in a season. So he can shut me up like his supporters want me to do. :angel:
 
Bebestation said:
The thing is the 4-1 loss to PSG by Barcelona.

It's the type of result that didnt happen when Xavi & Iniesta were playing. Now it happens every season with Messi being seen with :nervous: this type of face at the end of big matches.

They made that team for me. Messi is a GOAT but he was very lucky to have played with the spanish world cup team during their full career. The spanish world cup team end up retiring and luckily for Messi he has aged to the number that people dont expect him to be able to play with the numbers or type of performance that would help Barcelona win a title or UCL. Just as they say Barcelona miss the old quality of players & managers in the team - they never say that he was lucky to play with that type of consistent group of players during the time he was at his peak.

I really want him to move to a different club like PSG or City and help them win the league and CL in a season. So he can shut me up like his supporters want me to do. :angel:
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They won the CL without xavi. their peak in 2010-11 was the best, and nothing has matched it, but there was a decline with both of them still playing, and then more decline aftert that.

From 2017 on, the only reason they have won 2 leagues is messi. And the MOTM+main creative force+main goalscorer in their CL wins against halfway decent teams has been him (match win against Liverpool who then won the CL, group stage wins vs juve and poch's spurs, winning over two legs vs us, Chelsea, napoli).
His best clasico was 2016/17 away, with anything but a win meaning the end of their title challenge, neymar injured, xavi and iniesta long gone, he scored 2 including a solo equaliser and 90th minute winner, played with blood flowing from his jaw, got casemeiro carded and ramos sent off, and more than all of this, was the only attacking force they had all game. Best individual performance I've ever seen.
 
He is top goalscorer and he is not even a forward, that should say somerhing
 
Pocho said:
He is top goalscorer and he is not even a forward, that should say somerhing
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I'd say he's been a free roaming attacking midfielder for last 3 years based on his heatmap. I'd say that despite his previous season being considered one his poorer ones since he hit his prime, breaking the assist record and still finishing la liga topscorer is some achievement. I'd say that this season is probably his poorest since he hit his prime, but he's still topscorer and Barcelona look fairly toothless and clueless whenever he's not motm.
 
Bebestation said:
The thing is the 4-1 loss to PSG by Barcelona.

It's the type of result that didnt happen when Xavi & Iniesta were playing. Now it happens every season with Messi being seen with :nervous: this type of face at the end of big matches.

They made that team for me. Messi is a GOAT but he was very lucky to have played with the spanish world cup team during their full career. The spanish world cup team end up retiring and luckily for Messi he has aged to the number that people dont expect him to be able to play with the numbers or type of performance that would help Barcelona win a title or UCL. Just as they say Barcelona miss the old quality of players & managers in the team - they never say that he was lucky to play with that type of consistent group of players during the time he was at his peak.

I really want him to move to a different club like PSG or City and help them win the league and CL in a season. So he can shut me up like his supporters want me to do. :angel:
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I doubt that there's a way he can shut you up to be honest.
 
Zehner said:
I doubt that there's a way he can shut you up to be honest.
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Great players tend to play for great teams. Ronaldo had that earned fortune as well. Maradonna is probably the only goat who didn't and as a result his club trophy is haul is much less than it would have been if he had played for the greatest teams in his era.

Anyway I'm sure Messi wakes up everyday with the first thing on his mind being how he can shut up bebestation.
 
Bebestation said:
The thing is the 4-1 loss to PSG by Barcelona.

It's the type of result that didnt happen when Xavi & Iniesta were playing. Now it happens every season with Messi being seen with :nervous: this type of face at the end of big matches.

They made that team for me. Messi is a GOAT but he was very lucky to have played with the spanish world cup team during their full career. The spanish world cup team end up retiring and luckily for Messi he has aged to the number that people dont expect him to be able to play with the numbers or type of performance that would help Barcelona win a title or UCL. Just as they say Barcelona miss the old quality of players & managers in the team - they never say that he was lucky to play with that type of consistent group of players during the time he was at his peak.

I really want him to move to a different club like PSG or City and help them win the league and CL in a season. So he can shut me up like his supporters want me to do. :angel:
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I see you're still babbling on about Xavi and Iniesta. Last time I remember you said Messi has done 'crap all' since they left and when I reminded you that he has won the Ballon D'or, been top scorer in the CL, been the only ever player to score over 20 goals and 20 assists in a single league season and been top goalscorer and assister in La Liga in every season since they retired and it did shut you up. Unfortunately, it appears only briefly, although at least your tone is a little more considered this time.

Messi has unequivocally proven that he can perform without Xavi and Iniesta. Barcelona as a team are obviously weaker without two of the best midfielders of all time, an actual defence and a world class coach. You say Messi is fortunate to have played with Xavi and Iniesta which is true, but it's also unfortunate that in his 15 years as a professional, he's only ever had one world class coach and in those 4 years he broke every record and played at a level that no one has done prior or since.
 
Raredaredevil said:
How convenient you left out their Copa fixtures. In the 9 matches they played, they won 3 and drew 2. They just beat Barcelona in the Copa in the first leg 2-0.
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I looked at the league results because he’s just scored against them in the league.

But 3 wins and 2 draws out of 9 means 4 losses doesn’t it? Hardly makes things better overall = 6 wins, 9 draws, 26 losses.

Sevilla are shite against Barca, it’s not even debatable.
 
matherto said:
I looked at the league results because he’s just scored against them in the league.

But 3 wins and 2 draws out of 9 means 4 losses doesn’t it? Hardly makes things better overall = 6 wins, 9 draws, 26 losses.

Sevilla are shite against Barca, it’s not even debatable.
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Its probably also because Messi always scores against them.
 
matherto said:
You’d think in all that time they might change their approach once or twice so that they’re not cannon fodder.
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I'm sure their gameplan is to let Messi score so he can keep up with Ronaldo's stats.
 
Shamana said:
I'm sure their gameplan is to let Messi score so he can keep up with Ronaldo's stats.
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It certainly doesn’t seem to be much else. They effectively show up like Burnley do to City and get slaughtered with no change season on season, just like the rest of La Liga. No challenge, hence Messi scored 50 goals in a season, Ronaldo scored 46. Yes there’s the fact that they’re the best players in the world but they don’t half get some help.
 
matherto said:
I looked at the league results because he’s just scored against them in the league.

But 3 wins and 2 draws out of 9 means 4 losses doesn’t it? Hardly makes things better overall = 6 wins, 9 draws, 26 losses.

Sevilla are shite against Barca, it’s not even debatable.
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That means Barcelona have a win record of 64% which is what you'd expect really.

I mean Barcelona have a 83% win record against City with Messi scoring 6 goals and getting 3 assists in 6 games. Was he stat padding here too as City just rollover for Barcelona?
 
MalcolmTucker said:
That means Barcelona have a win record of 64% which is what you'd expect really.

I mean Barcelona have a 83% win record against City with Messi scoring 6 goals and getting 3 assists in 6 games. Was he stat padding here too as City just rollover for Barcelona?
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6 games spread out over different years in knockout ties versus 41 games season on season makes it a bit different don’t you think?

Those 6 games prove he’s a great player, the 41 prove Sevilla are little bitches to Barca and he’s a great player.
 
matherto said:
6 games spread out over different years in knockout ties versus 41 games season on season makes it a bit different don’t you think?

Those 6 games prove he’s a great player, the 41 prove Sevilla are little bitches to Barca and he’s a great player.
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Sometimes a player just has a certain teams number.
 
Shamana said:
Sometimes a player just has a certain teams number.
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Or the team just turns up and gets beaten, consistently, much like the rest of La Liga does 99% of the time to Barca and Real. Much like lower table teams to City or Liverpool over the past few years or us back in the day.
 
matherto said:
Or the team just turns up and gets beaten, consistently, much like the rest of La Liga does 99% of the time to Barca and Real. Much like lower table teams to City or Liverpool over the past few years or us back in the day.
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Sevilla is still a team that fights for top 4. It's not a club that's just content with not being relegated.
 
Shamana said:
Sevilla is still a team that fights for top 4. It's not a club that's just content with not being relegated.
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Yeah I'm aware of that but anyone that isn't Atletico plays like relegation fodder against Barca and Real. That's the fecking point.
 
matherto said:
Yeah I'm aware of that but anyone that isn't Atletico plays like relegation fodder against Barca and Real. That's the fecking point.
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Still hasn't stopped Messi scoring 32 goals against Athletico Madrid. Anyway I think you're wrong. The past teams of the golden era of Madrid and Barcelona were just that good. Among the best club sides ever in history.
 
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matherto said:
Yeah I'm aware of that but anyone that isn't Atletico plays like relegation fodder against Barca and Real. That's the fecking point.
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Atletico plays like cannon fodder against Madrid and Barca.
 
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