I appreciate you could be the foremost scholar on Messi and watch him every game like a hawk but you know just as little as any of us, or anyone in football about how he'd do in the PL because it's hypothetical and no one knows. I hope we see it as well.
I appreciate you could be the foremost scholar on Messi and watch him every game like a hawk but you know just as little as any of us, or anyone in football about how he'd do in the PL because it's hypothetical and no one knows. I hope we see it as well.
Since Messi turned 30, he has 13 goals in 10 games against English opposition - that's a goal every 64 minutes. This isn't against Sheffield United, this is against Pep's City, Klopp's Liverpool and Pochettino's Spurs.
I think he'd cope alright.
I like how, as per is the case on here when people don’t read the chain, my point was he would not replace Fernandes in United’s current system and I would rather City bought him than Haaland or Mbappe and it’s morphed into me being told he’d ‘cope’ in the PL.
Why would it matter how many he scored 4 years ago...I mean come on. Let’s just see if he comes to the PL and we’ll see. I feel my side of the debate is pretty logical (I.e he is a human being and therefore is subject to the effects of ageing) whereas yours/the other posters ignores the fact he’s in the last years of his career. I
I like how, as per is the case on here when people don’t read the chain, my point was he would not replace Fernandes in United’s current system and I would rather City bought him than Haaland or Mbappe and it’s morphed into me being told he’d ‘cope’ in the PL.
Why would it matter how many he scored 4 years ago...I mean come on. Let’s just see if he comes to the PL and we’ll see. I feel my side of the debate is pretty logical (I.e he is a human being and therefore is subject to the effects of ageing) whereas yours/the other posters ignores the fact he’s in the last years of his career. I
Also add in the fact Barcelona haven’t been anything like their best in that time either so the claims he can only do it in a great team are put to the sword.Since Messi turned 30, he has 13 goals in 10 games against English opposition - that's a goal every 64 minutes. This isn't against Sheffield United, this is against Pep's City, Klopp's Liverpool and Pochettino's Spurs.
I think he'd cope alright.
Does anyone think if we sign him we would win the title? Imagine how much he can uplift the team.
This may be a dumb question but could he and Bruno work together tactically?
At this point of time Messi is a flat track bully. I know some of his fanboys won't admit it but it's true. All of his CL goals came from penalty spot and he hasn't scored a single goal against better teams (bar penalty goals). He is also wastefull has more shots per game than any other player in Euro top 5 leagues.
Not to mention his defensive contibution is pathetic and is along with comicaly bad defence one of the reasons why Barca can't win against better teams. I honestly thing he is having some pshylogical problems. As soons as things don't go his way he just quits, there is absolutely no fight in him. He puts his head down and just stares in the distance. One of the worst captains in world football.
He is still a verry good player of course, but will be 34 in two months, he is visibly declining and he is not prepared to change his game. I would much rather have players like Haaland or Burno in my team and it's not even close.
At this point of time Messi is a flat track bully. I know some of his fanboys won't admit it but it's true. All of his CL goals came from penalty spot and he hasn't scored a single goal against better teams (bar penalty goals). He is also wastefull has more shots per game than any other player in Euro top 5 leagues.
Not to mention his defensive contibution is pathetic and is along with comicaly bad defence one of the reasons why Barca can't win against better teams. I honestly thing he is having some pshylogical problems. As soons as things don't go his way he just quits, there is absolutely no fight in him. He puts his head down and just stares in the distance. One of the worst captains in world football.
He is still a verry good player of course, but will be 34 in two months, he is visibly declining and he is not prepared to change his game. I would much rather have players like Haaland or Burno in my team and it's not even close.
At this point of time Messi is a flat track bully. I know some of his fanboys won't admit it but it's true. All of his CL goals came from penalty spot and he hasn't scored a single goal against better teams (bar penalty goals). He is also wastefull has more shots per game than any other player in Euro top 5 leagues.
Not to mention his defensive contibution is pathetic and is along with comicaly bad defence one of the reasons why Barca can't win against better teams. I honestly thing he is having some pshylogical problems. As soons as things don't go his way he just quits, there is absolutely no fight in him. He puts his head down and just stares in the distance. One of the worst captains in world football.
He is still a verry good player of course, but will be 34 in two months, he is visibly declining and he is not prepared to change his game. I would much rather have players like Haaland or Burno in my team and it's not even close.
Supports Real Madrid and calls everyone who doesn't agree with his ridiculous post Messi fanboys.
I'm not Messi fanboy and I can't understand how anyone who watches him play this season can label him a 'flat track bully'. The fact that you've chosen to simply look at goals, with no context regarding how Messi is being utilized this season or the players he's playing sheds light on the fact that you either haven't watched him play recently, or that you simply don't understand the sport.
Thing is, you make the impression that you don't really follow him closely and that your assessment of him might be caused by a lack of knowledge so people feel the need to correct you. If your point was "I'd pick a young talent over a 34 old because the long term benefits outweigh the short term" it would be different I believe. But it is kind of obvious you don't rate his recent performances as highly as the people you're debating with right now und who might have seen more of him than you have.
So let me put it like that: If he carries his level at 33 years to City, he'd be the best player of the EPL by far. However, since he's 33 that's not a guarantee, for all we know age might catch up with him and he might suddenly regress. But as of now I see no real signs of it. At least not to an extent that would be needed to not be the best in the EPL. Yet, it will inevitably happen in the not so distant future so it still might more sense for City to sign a player like Haaland over him due to his long term perspective, regardless of Messi's undeniable quality right now. Anyway, it could also make sense for the to sign the cherry on the cake for a few years to refine this current era with one of the best players in history, significantly improving their chances on the UCL.
Potentially the most condescending response I have ever seen on the caf, and that is saying something. Do I have a lack of knowledge or do I simply disagree with your opinion? It doesn't help genuine debate and just makes me assume you're a teenager.Thing is, you make the impression that you don't really follow him closely and that your assessment of him might be caused by a lack of knowledge so people feel the need to correct you
I'm not ignoring that he's in the last years of his career, hence only showing his record from the age of 30.
Even if we do it from the age of 32, he still has a goal every 79 minutes against Klopp's Liverpool, Poch's Spurs and us. Does this guarantee he'd dominate the PL if he came here? No. But you could say the same about Haaland and Mbappe and any other player. Considering Messi's record against the top teams in the PL in recent years, we have far stronger arguments for Messi however.
This season he has double the amount of MOTM awards compared to Haaland, Lewandowski, Bruno, Mbappe, Felix and every other player you wish to mention. I think you underrate his current performance level compared to his peers considerably. While technically you're correct in saying 'we don't how Messi would do in the PL', it's a pretty unimaginative argument and could be applied to any form of speculation and this forum would be a pretty dull place without speculation if you ask me!
I have seen every single Barca match this season and I stand with my statement. He was invisible against Real Madrid (can't remember the last time he had a good El Clasico), Atletico, Sevilla (twice), Juve (0-3 defeat)...
He scores a lot against teams like Cadiz, Alaves and the likes. Messi is being utilized they way he wants to be utilized. If you actually think Messi is sacrifising himself for the good of the team then I'm afraid it's you who doesn't understand the sport. Me being Real Madrid hardly disqualifies me from having an unbiased opinion on Messi. I can easily admit he used to give me nightmares and is one of the best players to ever play this sport, but he is simply not that good anymore.
Sure thing.
Regarding the rest of that drivel, if you think Messi prefers being surrounded and swarmed by a plethora of opposition midfielders every he is asked to build the Barcelona attacks from the half way line, there's no point even having a discussion. You can carrying on calling everyone who thinks you don't understand football a Messi fanboy if it makes you feel better.
It's more that argument becomes pointless when people are ignoring logic. The only argument everyone seems to have with Messi is he's carrying Barca (they are actually massively accommodating him) and he did x or y in the past against PL teams and therefore, he will do the same again.
How about we actually look at it without any bias and completely rationally. You have a striker whose game has never been based around fitness or physicality, is wonderful with the ball at his feet and will play as a 9 given I think we all agree he's not going to fit as a wide player in Pep's system. Jesus is not an elite striker but his off the ball skillset is exactly what Pep wants and a big part of why City are so hard to break down this season - they are defensively narrower, their front three form a rigid line and it's much more structured - all of their players have to work hard off the ball. So the perfect blend for Pep is going to be finding a better out and out striker, with good workrate and who he won't have to change his system for because it's working a treat.
Haaland fits that system, Kane could fit that system. Mbappe is a bit more doubtful but he's so young maybe they'd tweak for him. Messi does not in my opinion.
I completely understand your point, I just disagree but that's fine because this is a forum and people have different ideas. You think he's still the best in the world, I think he's now probably top 5 or so, it's not that different an opinion. I'd happily further debate but not if the only retort to this is 'but Messi scored x goals when he was 32' or has 'y MOTM' because I don't particularly see how that is relevant.
Potentially the most condescending response I have ever seen on the caf, and that is saying something. Do I have a lack of knowledge or do I simply disagree with your opinion? It doesn't help genuine debate and just makes me assume you're a teenager.
My point is that I do not consider him amongst the best in the world anymore, same with CR7, because age has definitely caught up with them in my opinion. They are still great players, Messi would get into most teams even in his twilight but, ironically, my opinion is based on thinking through how he might fit into City's system (and is therefore surely not only more logical but is a bit more in depth?) whereas your opinion seems to essentially be as basic as he scores a lot of goals in La Liga and has been good in the CL and therefore he will be amazing in the PL. I watch a lot of him, I watch a lot of LL in general and that's my opinion. I have no problem with the fact you think differently.
It's more that argument becomes pointless when people are ignoring logic. The only argument everyone seems to have with Messi is he's carrying Barca (they are actually massively accommodating him) and he did x or y in the past against PL teams and therefore, he will do the same again.
How about we actually look at it without any bias and completely rationally. You have a striker whose game has never been based around fitness or physicality, is wonderful with the ball at his feet and will play as a 9 given I think we all agree he's not going to fit as a wide player in Pep's system. Jesus is not an elite striker but his off the ball skillset is exactly what Pep wants and a big part of why City are so hard to break down this season - they are defensively narrower, their front three form a rigid line and it's much more structured - all of their players have to work hard off the ball. So the perfect blend for Pep is going to be finding a better out and out striker, with good workrate and who he won't have to change his system for because it's working a treat.
Haaland fits that system, Kane could fit that system. Mbappe is a bit more doubtful but he's so young maybe they'd tweak for him. Messi does not in my opinion.
I completely understand your point, I just disagree but that's fine because this is a forum and people have different ideas. You think he's still the best in the world, I think he's now probably top 5 or so, it's not that different an opinion. I'd happily further debate but not if the only retort to this is 'but Messi scored x goals when he was 32' or has 'y MOTM' because I don't particularly see how that is relevant.
I quit reading at flatEveryone is saying it. SAD!
How fun could be watching him playing along Ronaldo at Juve? Two years.I think he is getting back to his usual form, his 2nd goal was against Elche was sublime, probably the one of the best solo goal I have watched this season.
Agreed, their press is now much more compact and that also means they usually win the ball back deeper than before and really suits an athletic forward line. Again, I'm not saying Messi is on a zimmer frame I personally just think he wouldn't be No1 pick for that system. A lot of time has passed since that season where he scored 73 goals and for me Haaland or Kane would make them stronger overall.Man City's forwards work smart, not hard. Their forwards don't press like madmen, but apply considered positional pressure as a team. I think Messi fits in as a forward in Pep's system very well, we've seen him score 73 goals in a season under Pep and he wasn't racking up 13km games back then either - I'll guess we will have to wait and see whether Pep agrees or not in the summer window.
Alright then, let's go into detail.
| La Liga | With Messi | Without Messi |
| Goals Scored (av per game) | 50 (2) | 3 (1.5) |
| Goals Conceded (av per game) | 21 (0.84) | 1 (0.5) |
| Average Points | 1.84 | 2 |
| CL/CdR/SC | With Messi | Without Messi |
| Goals Scored (av per game) | 22 (2.44) | 10 (2.5) |
| Goals Conceded (av per game) | 15 (1.66) | 1 (0.25) |
| Average Points | 15 (1.66) | 10 (2.5) |
Agreed, their press is now much more compact and that also means they usually win the ball back deeper than before and really suits an athletic forward line. Again, I'm not saying Messi is on a zimmer frame I personally just think he wouldn't be No1 pick for that system. A lot of time has passed since that season where he scored 73 goals and for me Haaland or Kane would make them stronger overall.
Just to condense your post, you are saying:
A lot of people on the caf watch a lot of football - it's great you do as well - but what you have presented here doesn't in any way disprove my point, that I believe City would be better signing a striker like Haaland or Kane. You have gone to great lengths and I appreciate the time you have put in here but his dribbling stats, xG, key passes etc. are exactly what you'd expect given that team is built around him. The question about Messi at this age is not about his offensive output, it is a question about how detrimental his accommodation is to the wider team?
- You watch a lot of Messi & here are some stats.
- Robben/Ribery example plus Ibra, CR7 (not putting others as completely different positions and better to focus on attacking players)
- Here's a video of how he could work for City + that's how you think he would fit in. (I'm going to ignore the Messi>KDB comment for the sake of efficiency in this reply)
Whenever someone tries to argue for Messi still being the GOAT, they always only focus on the offensive stats and ignore/aren't aware of how much Barcelona currently sacrifice to allow him to maintain his output. If he's smashing in 70+ goals a season all is dandy but his recent stats from this season paint a different picture.
- Messi has not scored a single CL goal from open play. A single goal. In a system that is built around him and where he has complete attacking free reign. Haaland has 6 from open play for reference.
- Across all competitions without Messi, Barcelona have only conceded a single goal from open play (Eibar - which was an awful individual error). Let's assess these stats in more details:
La Liga With Messi Without Messi Goals Scored (av per game) 50 (2) 3 (1.5) Goals Conceded (av per game) 21 (0.84) 1 (0.5) Average Points 1.84 2
The above hints at how much better defensively Barcelona are without him but the obvious retort here is the sample size is way too small, which is true, so let's look at the combined cups as well so it's more fair:
CL/CdR/SC With Messi Without Messi Goals Scored (av per game) 22 (2.44) 10 (2.5) Goals Conceded (av per game) 15 (1.66) 1 (0.25) Average Points 15 (1.66) 10 (2.5)
Combined this gives us a decent amount of games across different comps and different levels of opposition. What you can see, very clearly, is Barcelona are much better defensively without Messi although this probably isn't a surprise to most football fans who watch them, even irregularly. What is surprising is they are actually better offensively for goals scored as well...combining all comps it is 2.16 goals p/g without versus 2.11 goals p/g with Messi.
On Robben/Ribery and older player examples - I'm not one of the caf posters who thinks anyone past 30 is essentially retired but there are very few examples of 34 year old coming to the PL and being successful. I understand Messi is better than any who have made that transition previously but he's hardly known for his fitness. Ibra is a fitness nutter and his game is completely different to Messi's so I don't see why you'd compare them (he also wasn't that successful if you think Martial scored more than him last season), CR7 is the same and made the wise move of going to Serie A. Ribery and Robben were great players but there's no way a top PL would be in for them when they were mid thirties, Ribery is now always injured and hardly setting the Serie A alight with Fiorentina and that's a slower league that tends to suit older players. Look at Cavani, he is 34 and also a fitness freak but he's struggling to score loads of goals - City are obviously better at creating chances than United but the PL is a hard league physically and whilst I am sure Messi would do well, I doubt he'd be as good as other signings could be. That's my whole point.
I like Tifo football, it's a good channel with some good information but, again, I don't see how any of that is relevant to my point which is I think City would be better signing a select few other players.
As an aside please let me know if any of the above data is incorrect, I have a big spreadsheet I use for betting and double checked this with WhoScored/Transfermarkt so am hopeful to have avoided human error.
I mean he's one of the greatest to have played the game. I wasn't considering swapping them and taking into account their ages etc But who I'd want in my team right now - Messi and it's not even close. Yes, he wouldn't run as much as Bruno nor as much as a 24 year old Messi who used to harry and chase under Pep. However, he is a complete one-off in my time watching football and a complete genius. As much as Bruno get s us off our bums once a match, Messi does it numerous times per game. He's that special, even if, naturally, he's slowed down a tad.This is just crazy to me. There's no doubt whatsoever who the better player was/is but Bruno's role at United would be awful for Messi at 33, nearly 34 years old. Bruno covers so much ground, puts in a lot of pressing, never holds onto the ball, rarely in a position to dribble at defenders and whilst it's a free role he's like a box2box, AM, CM,No10 all rolled into one messy (no pun intended) high energy ball of erratic magnificence. It'd be like resigning CR7 and paying him in the vacant RW spot at his age, they would just not suit the system.
Come on man, you've pointed out that the sample size of two games without Messi is too small yourself, then you go on and pretend 6 is enough? Also, you assume that those samples are randomized but they're not. Messi is obviously more likely to miss the easy games since they can do without him in those match ups. Precisely, he missed 7 games this season: Kiew, Ferencvaros, Eibar, Elche, Cornelia and Sociedad. I don't think I have to elaborate that any further.
From a more general perspective, Messi's defensive contribution hasn't changed since his break through at all. So if that's such a drastic problem as you describe it, it has always been the case. Barca dealt with it and City will, too. Moreover, you're ignoring the fact that having Messi on the pitch completely change the way an opponent sets up. We've seen countless times how a game changed 180° after Messi was subbed in. And also, I believe those work rate stats are pretty superficial. I once read that although Messi is one of the players with the least kms on the clock on average, he's also one of those who make the most fast runs and sprints. He also has quite many recoveries and possession wins. He's very good at applying pressure when he chooses to do so.
I also think you break it down to me posting stats too much. I explicitly said that those quantitative stats support my qualitative assessment of his performances. He still is the best dribbler in the world for me and as I said, I follow many players very closely you could deem his closest competitors in this discipline.
And I'm not arguing your point that Haaland etc. might be better signings given the long term perspective. I'm arguing against you don't seeing him as the best in the world anymore and saying he has declined when my personal observations tell me the exact opposite.
Sample size is the same size, I can't change that. the quality debate works both ways as he generally fills his boots versus the chaff and when we look at the mirror games (i.e the CL games where you have 2 games H & Away) the stats make for direct comparison. They conceded in both games versus Kiev & Ferencvaros and scored 2 + 5 with him whereas in those exact same games without him they conceded 0 and scored 4 + 3.
Can you provide evidence for the bolded bit, would be interesting to see for this season compared to previous.
My point has been the same for this entire conversation, that City would be weaker with him overall than if they signed a select few other players - in my mind Haaland, Kane and probably Mbappe as well. Maybe Neymar but not as convinced there. The fact Haaland would be better longer term is so obvious it shouldn't need to be said, my point is he's actually, in my opinion, likely a better option right now as well.
If this was 18/19 or prior I'd be inclined to agree with you but it's not.
Regarding the stats: Unfortunately not. I already searched the web multiple times but I can only find secondary sources for covered kilometres (articles, tickers, broadcasts, etc.) and usually only for teams, not individuals. Stats regarding fast runs are even rarer. I suppose those things aren't included in the free or basic plans of the APIs most stats websites use.
Regarding productivity against top teams: I think this is generally an issue related to the quality of the team one plays in. I for instance believe that Messi's and Cristiano's goal records are hugely inflated by them playing in far and away the most dominant teams in their leagues. If your team is able to dominate the opposition, it's easier for you to pad your stats. However, when youre being outplayed it becomes very hard to score or assist. That's not only regarding Messi but also other top players. Mbappe has had some painfully average games for example when the opponent outplayed PSG. See the final for example, where Neymar and Mbappe almost exclusively received the ball in harmless areas and weren't granted space or time on the ball. This is a pattern you see a lot with Messi, too. He drops so deep nowadays that the amounts of easy goals he scores become lesser and lesser every season. In recent years, the stunners he scored seemingly outweighed the tap ins and easy goals. That's the main difference to the Guardiola days and it's also the reason why his xG rating was so much ahead of everyone else in this time period. He's an incredible finisher from around 15-20 metres and since he doesn't get many chances from very probable positions these days, it hugely affects his xG.
Regarding Haaland and co.: I think it's a completely different topic to debate. The one point I was arguing is that Messi is still individually the best player out there and I doubt any player you mentioned will even achieve the level Messi currently possesses. That being said, of course the long term perspective is better with Haaland and co. since they possibly offer 10+ years of elite performances while Messi even if everything goes ideally offers maybe 3-4. However, after his contract was leaked, I dived a bit into the whole marketability and accouting stuff surrounding the deal as well as the studies who claimed he was responsible for 30% of Barca's returns. Apparently Barca was so keen on keeping him for another year since he's their cash cow and clauses in the contracts of their sponsors determine that the payments go down up to 50% if he doesn't play or even leaves the club. If you assume that City can negotiate similar clauses, the signing of Messi might make a Haaland transfer possible without breaching FFP rules, for isntance. Most likely, the deal will significantly increase City's leeway regarding financial fair play.
Yh most are now behind a paywall - there used be good info on high intensity sprint and possess recoveries in certain areas for free but all is monetised now and, as much as I love football stats, I have a normal job and not enough time to make paying for that worth it! Would be really interesting to see though.
I agree on all that you write below - particularly with regards to inflated stats form being in powerhouse teams in LL. I actually struggle to think of a better finisher than Messi (maybe Lewa, probably his best mate Aguero) but I guess I just don't think he's at the top of the pile anymore as an all round player. City would be a better overall team if they signed Haaland, Kane or maybe Mbappe in my opinion than Messi. In all these instances they'd score a shit load of goals but overall I think Messi makes them the weakest.
City can pay him whatever they want in fairness, FFP are hiding under a rock now.
But in what areas do you think he has regressed? You here that a lot but usually not from people who actually watch him play. Sure, he's maybe not his 2012 90 goals a year self anymore but I struggle to see how he's any worse than say 5 years ago.
For me watching him he's just that little bit slower, little bit less dynamic and, although his apparent unhappiness might be a factor here, a lot less bothered. It's harder for him to change games against the better teams.But in what areas do you think he has regressed? You here that a lot but usually not from people who actually watch him play. Sure, he's maybe not his 2012 90 goals a year self anymore but I struggle to see how he's any worse than say 5 years ago.
Nearly every good team shuts him down completely nowadays. I know you will probably say it is only because Barcelona as a team is so bad and they can all focus on Messi but that is not true.
Messi used to be the best in nearly every (offensive) metric. Not i think his finishing regressed a lot. His dribbling is still incredibly good but used to be even better. His passing was better the last few years in my opinion, lots of missplaced passes this season. Just look up in which games Messi scored this year and in which he didn't. Futhermore he is quite lazy. Compare him with attackers from Man City, Liverpool, Bayern. They all work hard for the team. Messi doesn't.
Still a fantastic footballer but definitely not as good as 5 years ago.
For me watching him he's just that little bit slower, little bit less dynamic and, although his apparent unhappiness might be a factor here, a lot less bothered. It's harder for him to change games against the better teams.
Ask yourself this. If his name wasn't Messi and he'd randomly just been found at an older age and you saw him with no prior knowledge this season, would you think he is the best footballer in the world? I'd personally think, who is this phenomenal player and how good must he have been in his pomp.
As said, I'm not saying he's past it, it's just that I would put a few choice players above him if we are hypothetically discussing who is the best signing for Pep's City. I'd think the same for United (probably even more so given how we play) and any other PL team.
Fair enough and I disagree for the reasons I have given. i do hope we see him in the PL though.Yes, absolutely. Bar Neymar, Messi is streets ahead of everyone else. And Neymar while also incredible on his day is still relatively clearly inferior to him in every attacking discipline. And from the current bunch of super talents, I can only see Sancho and Felix becoming as good as Neymar.
