Lionel Messi

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Cal? said:
2008? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
:lol: <- Just added another cause I couldn't stop laughing.
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He means from the 2008/2009 season till the 2012/2013 season. In which case he'd be correct. Ronaldo was undoubtedly the best player in the world in the 2007/2008 season, but it was the following season that Messi went from a superb young player with the ability to be the best in the world to actually being the best in the world.
 
Cheesy said:
He means from the 2008/2009 season till the 2012/2013 season. In which case he'd be correct. Ronaldo was undoubtedly the best player in the world in the 2007/2008 season, but it was the following season that Messi went from a superb young player with the ability to be the best in the world to actually being the best in the world.
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08/09 - 11/12 you can make a case, not 12/13.
 
Cal? said:
08/09 - 11/12 you can make a case, not 12/13.
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Ronaldo arguably had a better season, although it's hardly as it there's not a case to be made. Messi still had a fairly incredible season that year. 08-12 isn't really all that much up for argument though, but I've gotten a bit tired of the whole Messi/Ronaldo debate since people seem to be unable to just appreciate how brilliant both are when they discuss it through tinted specs.
 
Cheesy said:
Ronaldo arguably had a better season, although it's hardly as it there's not a case to be made. Messi still had a fairly incredible season that year. 08-12 isn't really all that much up for argument though, but I've gotten a bit tired of the whole Messi/Ronaldo debate since people seem to be unable to just appreciate how brilliant both are when they discuss it through tinted specs.
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10/11 Ronaldo scored loads more, 11/12 Ronaldo won the league, all those seasons can be debated if you want to deabte 12/13.

Anyway, I don't want another debate on this topic as it's been done to death and I just want to point out again that it wasn't me who brought up Ronaldo in this thread.
 
Since Ronaldo went to Madrid, Messi has been better than him. You can make a case that Ronaldo was better last season, and thats all.
 
Rykker_4united said:
Since Ronaldo went to Madrid, Messi has been better than him. You can make a case that Ronaldo was better last season, and thats all.
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this

Ronaldo's best was with us, since he left us, he made more goals, but he never played again as he did here. He played better than messi last season, but only because messi wasnt on form

yet. the best ronaldo is not in the level of the best messi
 
marcosdeto said:
this

Ronaldo's best was with us, since he left us, he made more goals, but he never played again as he did here. He played better than messi last season, but only because messi wasnt on form

yet. the best ronaldo is not in the level of the best messi
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No offence Marcos but your biased. Ronaldos highest level was never achieved in a United jersey. People can argue it to death but its simply not true.
 
Decotron said:
No offence Marcos but your biased. Ronaldos highest level was never achieved in a United jersey. People can argue it to death but its simply not true.
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i admit i might be biased, but i really think that with fergie and for us he played the best football of his career (bar some friendlies, i must have seen every game he played for us and 90 percent he played for real madrid) and with us not only he was spectacular -as he is in real madrid- but also he was a team player -something he seldom is for real madrid-
 
Cal? said:
10/11 Ronaldo scored loads more, 11/12 Ronaldo won the league, all those seasons can be debated if you want to deabte 12/13.

Anyway, I don't want another debate on this topic as it's been done to death and I just want to point out again that it wasn't me who brought up Ronaldo in this thread.
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in 10/11 ronaldo scored 53 goals in 54 games (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cristiano_Ronaldo)
in 10/11 messi scored 53 goals in 55 game (source: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Estadísticas_de_Lionel_Messi)

in 11/12 ronaldo won the league, but messi scored 73 goals in 60 games and gave 29 assists

in 12/13 messi scored 60 goals in 50 games and gave 16 assists while ronaldo scored 55 in 55 games
 
Bob Loblaw said:
I haven't really been following the case but he's only a crook* if you believe a 17 year old Messi sat down and completed his own tax returns. His accountant had a mare with some dodgy scheme. He's far from the first Spain based player to suffer, Eto'o and Casillas are probably the two other highest profile cases recently.

* if you're talking morally. Legally he probably bears the responsibility for the accuracy of any information he submitted.
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The initial contracts are from when he was under-age, but they were revised a couple of times afterwards (only ending this year) and the accountants and intermediaries involved changed at least once. The prosecutor was willing to remove the charge against Messi following the deal with the tax office, the judge wasn't, probably due to the scale. While the case is tied to the contracts made when he was under age, the failure to correct them when he became aware of them as an adult is an issue.

There are loads of high profile tax evasion / fiscal fraud cases in progress in Spain. Politicians, members of the royal family, lots of footballers - people like Figo, Villa, Valdes, Eto'o, Casillas. Allowing a defence of "my accountant/agent/dad/bloke who sold me a villa/yacht/hotel project dealt with all the money" in one case, reopens a door the tax office are trying to shut. It also affects the fines/financial penalties that can be levied. The likeliest outcome is unchanged, big fine for Messi, a possible jail sentence for his dad (though if they throw sufficient dodgy accountants etc to the wolves that is probably avoidable (unlike the tax.)

Incidentally Messi's already agreed to pay over €50m in tax this year, making him one of the Spanish tax offices highest individual contributors.
 
Cal? said:
Funny how upset you lot get even by the most mundane comment.

Is he? He was probably the better player 10-13, is he still?

[Btw, it was the mod who mentioned he who must not be named in this thread, not me.]
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Ronaldo had a better season. How does that make him a better player? Is Sturridge better than Rooney or RVP because of last season?
 
Pink Moon said:
Ronaldo had a better season. How does that make him a better player? Is Sturridge better than Rooney or RVP because of last season?
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By that logic, Kompany only had a better season than Rio, how does that make him a better player?
 
I honestly can't believe this argument is still ongoing? Seriously?

99% of football watchers will tell you it's clear that Messi's the better player.

It's borderline desperation to try and hold on to the notion of Ronaldo being better then Messi.

There's not even any real shame in not being better - it's not a slight on Ronaldo, not at all. Messi's just in that calibre of GOAT. But Ronaldo will deservedly go down amongst the greats as well.

People use stats to prove this or that....stats shouldn't prove everything & when people prove stats - they conveniently ignore other factors - like Messi & Ronaldo's advantage over the rest of the teams in la liga etc.

Anyhow, no real desire to debate this topic any longer.
 
Its crazy but his career is getting a bad vibe at the moment. The world cup and the last "only good" :lol: season play a part in that.
At the start of 2013 he was the best around for most without question. On his way to become the best surely.
Now all of that is in doubt for many imo. No Barca or Argentina fan but he deserves more. He earned all that hype in the last years.
That he was voted 3rd and 2nd best in the world in 2007 and 08 showed the momentum he had. He wasnt among the 3 best these years but people knew his name and loved the show.
He has to live through the hardest time of his career imo.
 
Ish84045 said:
I honestly can't believe this argument is still ongoing? Seriously?

99% of football watchers will tell you it's clear that Messi's the better player.

It's borderline desperation to try and hold on to the notion of Ronaldo being better then Messi.

There's not even any real shame in not being better - it's not a slight on Ronaldo, not at all. Messi's just in that calibre of GOAT. But Ronaldo will deservedly go down amongst the greats as well.

People use stats to prove this or that....stats shouldn't prove everything & when people prove stats - they conveniently ignore other factors - like Messi & Ronaldo's advantage over the rest of the teams in la liga etc.

Anyhow, no real desire to debate this topic any longer.
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Yup, I agree. Although in a way I think it is a testament to Ronaldos hard work and quality that he can still win a balon dor with messi around. But messi will definitely be remembered as the better of the two and rightly so.
 
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Cal? said:
By that logic, Kompany only had a better season than Rio, how does that make him a better player?
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how do you go from Sturridge/Rooney&RvP to Kompany/Rio?

Sturridge had the first great season in his carreer and he did it alongside Suarez who was just a beast (no pun intended). Liverpool were great last season and the emphasis in Rodgers' style of play is quite evidently to play attacking football, more-so than any other team bar City who were on par last year IMO. That's really the only way he could win because their defense isn't something he could rely on, so there wasn't as much balance you could say....it did make for some entertaining football though.

Compare that to Rooney & RvP under Moyes last season...I mean Rooney was actually really good, RvP had injury issues, but the problem IMO mainly lies in the system we were playing under Moyes. As I mentioned in earlier posts he had no creativity what-so-ever, completely uninspiring and boring football, apart from De Gea and Januzaj nobody really excelled.


On topic: Messi is probably the best player ever. Ronaldo was better before 2008/09 and last season. Another golden boot would certainly help his case, but as much as I like Ronaldo and honestly prefer him over Messi, Messi's best is better than anybody else's best I've ever witnessed.
Whether he'll now somehow drop off a bit and Ronaldo continues to surge through remains to be seen. All in all both are a level above everybody else past & present IMO.
 
anchan1989 said:
Its crazy but his career is getting a bad vibe at the moment. The world cup and the last "only good" :lol: season play a part in that.
At the start of 2013 he was the best around for most without question. On his way to become the best surely.
Now all of that is in doubt for many imo. No Barca or Argentina fan but he deserves more. He earned all that hype in the last years.
That he was voted 3rd and 2nd best in the world in 2007 and 08 showed the momentum he had. He wasnt among the 3 best these years but people knew his name and loved the show.
He has to live through the hardest time of his career imo.
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yes, the world cup

he only came second :rolleyes:
 
Marcosdeto said:
yes, the world cup

he only came second :rolleyes:
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Thats what I meant. He had a good world cup. But you hear much talk about how he failed to score in the KO rounds, how he didnt deserve the golden ball and blew up his chance to join Pele,Diego,Franz and so on.
I love Messi. I critize the media and so on here that talk bad about him atm.
 
anchan1989 said:
Thats what I meant. He had a good world cup. But you hear much talk about how he failed to score in the KO rounds, how he didnt deserve the golden ball and blew up his chance to join Pele,Diego,Franz and so on.
I love Messi. I critize the media and so on here that talk bad about him atm.
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sorry, my bad, i missunderstood your point
 
Stats can definitely be massaged at times, no question about it. But when you look at the sheer number of statistics in that and the number in which Messi is clear at the top, it's obviously not just a coincidence.
 
Raul Madrid said:
Yup, I agree. Although in a way I think it is a testament to Ronaldos hard work and quality that he can still win a balon dor with messi around. But messi will definitely be remembered as the better of the two and rightly so.
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Yeah absolutely. Ronaldo is a freak of nature & he's supremely talented. In any other era, he'd probably have racked up his 5th-6th Ballon d'Or by now as well. (Ironically it's debatable whether or not he'd have reached these levels without the competition of Messi.).

I'm just trying to enjoy them both because they're arguably entering into the final 1/3 of their respective careers.
 
Ish84045 said:
Yeah absolutely. Ronaldo is a freak of nature & he's supremely talented. In any other era, he'd probably have racked up his 5th-6th Ballon d'Or by now as well. (Ironically it's debatable whether or not he'd have reached these levels without the competition of Messi.).

I'm just trying to enjoy them both because they're arguably entering into the final 1/3 of their respective careers.
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He may not have scored those crazy amounts but he'd still have won scored many goals and won many more Ballon d'Ors
 
kouroux said:
He may not have scored those crazy amounts but he'd still have won scored many goals and won many more Ballon d'Ors
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Arguably almost certainly not under the original BdO format. In the inane popularity contest that is the FIFA BdO, yep.
 
Vato said:
I liked him better with his hobbit haircut.
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Agreed. And now I've thought about it the only logical explanation for his outrageous ability is that he has the one ring!

Or is that Glaston when he does his mid-year disappearing act?
 
Marcosdeto said:
i admit i might be biased, but i really think that with fergie and for us he played the best football of his career (bar some friendlies, i must have seen every game he played for us and 90 percent he played for real madrid) and with us not only he was spectacular -as he is in real madrid- but also he was a team player -something he seldom is for real madrid-
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His style has become far more direct than it was for us. A bit like what has happened with us for Rooney IMO - some of the flair and raw ability seems to have gone, in order to become more ruthless and productive.

Ronaldos prime attributes at Madrid are his athleticism. He was always a model athlete, but with us you would say it was his flair that really elevated him. At Madrid it is about the speed, the strength, the heart to be a winner. Its not for beginners. Are you a Gladiator?

Again, he is certainly more productive at Madrid - although one could attribute some of that to him being in his prime and enjoying his peak years there - but for me he was a more exciting player to watch at United.
 
Another way of looking at it, no player ever come close beating Messi on those awards, except Ronaldo, who has actually managed to beat him couple of times.
 
He'll set loads of records this season. The European one he should have broken a while ago, somehow let Ronaldo get neck and neck with that, but I think he'll break Raul's record first.
 
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