Lionel Messi

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that was his moment of brilliance during that world cup

That was the game you couldn't have ever won without him. You could play it over and over and -without Maradona- Brazil would have won it every one of them.

Look at the note I added after the vid.

then, he missed a penalty against yugoslavia, and we qualified to the semis because goycoechea saved two penalties

It was a very mediocre team, the entire strategy seemed to be to fluke wins or draw and go through on penalties. That Yugoslavia side was also a miles better side (it was basically Red Star with a few others sprinkled around).

As with the Brazil goal, if you look at any of the goals you scored in that WC you will find most times Maradona had dragged so many defenders along with him that AN Other had a very easy job.

The defence could cope because he gave them the breaks to breathe and reorganise. The attack could pose some sort of threat because he made every defender in his radius of influence completely lose sight of anyone else on the pitch. And he persisted at providing that game in, game out, with his ankle the size of a football from all the fouls.

WC86 was sheer brilliance in a good side, WC90 was getting to the final with a mediocre side with every bit of your success over 90 minutes (not in penalties) entirely reliant on "we have Maradona".
 
It's beyond ridiculous.

Has it sunk in yet that we are being priveledged to watching most possibly the two greatest players ever playing at the same time, hitting their peaks at the same time? Crazy.

This is something that I've been thinking about the other day, it's crazy when you think about it. This rivalry is something all football fans will remember forever.
 
That was the game you couldn't have ever won without him. You could play it over and over and -without Maradona- Brazil would have won it every one of them.

Look at the note I added after the vid.



It was a very mediocre team, the entire strategy seemed to be to fluke wins or draw and go through on penalties. That Yugoslavia side was also a miles better side (it was basically Red Star with a few others sprinkled around).

As with the Brazil goal, if you look at any of the goals you scored in that WC you will find most times Maradona had dragged so many defenders along with him that AN Other had a very easy job.

The defence could cope because he gave them the breaks to breathe and reorganise. The attack could pose some sort of threat because he made every defender in his radius of influence completely lose sight of anyone else on the pitch. And he persisted at providing that game in, game out, with his ankle the size of a football from all the fouls.

WC86 was sheer brilliance in a good side, WC90 was getting to the final with a mediocre side with every bit of your success over 90 minutes (not in penalties) entirely reliant on "we have Maradona".

i'm going to say this in spanish because i cant find the words in english

era un equipo lleno de jugadores brillantes, pero muchos estaban lesionados, con un tecnico como biulardo que era un genio pero tambièn un caprichoso, y con maradona que decìa cuàles jugadores iban y cuàles no

llegò a la final no gracias a maradona sino gracias a la suerte, porque si bien maradona hizo ese pase a cannigia, el partido debimos haberlo perdido por seis goles de diferencia,

acordate que en la etapa de clasificaciòn, perdimos contra camerun, le ganamos a la URSS, gracias a que el arbitro obviò una mano evidente de maradona -justamente èl- y empatamos lastimosamente contra rumania

clasificamos como mejores terceros y nos tocò ese partido contra brasil, que ganamos porque los brasileños no embocaron ninguna y nosotros si

despuès jugamos contra yugoslavia 0 a 0, en ese partido maradona no hizo nada, y clasificamos gracias a goycoechea, incluso diego erro un penal

contra italia, no recuerdo que maradona haya hecho nada especial, si vos decis que jugo muy bien, tengo que creerte, no me vas a mentir

pero el gol lo haca canigia y el partido nunca peligrò lo controlamos muy bien en el medio, sobre todo gracias a giusti -era el cerebro de bilardo dentro de la cancha-.

y en la final contra alemania pasò lo que tenìa que pasar, nos ganaron bien, aunque con un penal que para muchos fue dudoso

de todas formas, y esto es muy importante, maradona no jugò ese mundial muy bien, porque estaba lesionado, tenìa un golpe en el dedo gordo del pie izquierdo que lo maltrato durante todo el mundial

entonces, para mi, el segundo puesto en el mundial de 1990 se lo debemos, principalmente a bilardo que contra italia planteò el mejor partido de todos, a goycoechea porque nos salvò contra yugoeslavia e italia en los penales, a canigia por los goles contra brasil e italia y a giusti que era un fenòmeno en el medio campo

maradona tuvo su momento de brillantez, pero la leyenda le atribuye màs meritos en ese mundial de los que en realidad tuvo

en ese mundial hicimos 5 goles -maradona no hizo ninguno y tuvo una sola asistencia -> la de canigia- nos hicieron 4 y asì y todo llegamos a la final

decime ahora porquè el genio de ese equipo fue maradona y no la defensa que permitiò solo cuatro goles? :)
 
This is something that I've been thinking about the other day, it's crazy when you think about it. This rivalry is something all football fans will remember forever.
Ronaldo is simply not close to a 'rival' to Messi.
 
This is something that I've been thinking about the other day, it's crazy when you think about it. This rivalry is something all football fans will remember forever.

They shouldn't be compared, though of course they will forever and ever. But they should just be held in isolation and admired for the fact they have actually created their own level as players. They are next level players.
 
What sort of figures do you think Ronaldo could get playing with them?

Without them, he's not doing too bad...

Altough you do have a point that Messi has the better players surrounding him in midfield, Ronaldo has a different style of play, he runs more with the ball and his attacks come more from the wings than Messi. His style is more fitted for fast counterattacking play and I don't think he would fit in as well at Barca, just like Ibrahimovic didn't at the time. So I'm not sure if he would have more goals in that team.
 
Altough you do have a point that Messi has the better players surrounding him in midfield, Ronaldo has a different style of play, he runs more with the ball and his attacks come more from the wings than Messi. His style is more fitted for fast counterattacking play and I don't think he would fit in as well at Barca, just like Ibrahimovic didn't at the time. So I'm not sure if he would have more goals in that team.

many people forget that with messi played ibra and villa and both of them scored a lot of less goals than messi

but still it's not messi, is the people that surrounds him that are doing things good for him
 
many people forget that with messi played ibra and villa and both of them scored a lot of less goals than messi

but still it's not messi, is the people that surrounds him that are doing things good for him

I'm not saying he's not ridiculously good, because he is. Not sure I'm getting your point marcos.
 
I'm not saying he's not ridiculously good, because he is. Not sure I'm getting your point marcos.

i was agreeing with you, i was pointing out, as you said, that ibrahimovic didn't fit with barca style of play, that means that theres also a chance that ronaldo wouldntl make a lot of goals if he was surrounded by xavi and iniesta
 
i was agreeing with you, i was pointing out, as you said, that ibrahimovic didn't fit with barca style of play, that means that theres also a chance that ronaldo wouldntl make a lot of goals if he was surrounded by xavi and iniesta
Oh, ok. :)
 
On a sidenote, Tello has impressed me greatly the last couple of matches I've seen him play. Great little player.
 
many people forget that with messi played ibra and villa and both of them scored a lot of less goals than messi

but still it's not messi, is the people that surrounds him that are doing things good for him

Villa as we know Marcos, is played in a similar position to Ronaldo. Just off the center in the wide forward role to accommodate Messi coming through the center in the hole.

Ibrah didn't suit the Barcelona style.

I think part of the reason that Messi is more influential then he who must not be named is that at any point in time, he has four players he can play the ball too. He sits out in the wider position and thus can be restricted to playing the ball around the pitch as well as the Argentine.
 
I keep looking at this thread from time to time and I do think that we are now as you tipped seeing a player who could become the greatest ever.

Could we actually be witnessing the greatest player ever?

Seriously, could he one day be regarded as an all time great?

My tip - YES.
 
....
don't want to argue this again, i have said it many times, but the team that played with him in 1986 was very good
Yet Maradona made it great. which is the whole gist of the argument. Maradona used to make good teams great consistently. Currently Messi only does so for Barca. We shall see in the future if he can make that extra step on the road of greatness.
 
Messi has already managed to score more goals this season than L. Ronaldo in his best evet season at club level (96/97). And there remain nearly 3 months of football till the end of the season. :lol:

Messi is on course to 60+ goals this season. Given that he isn't an out and out striker and contributes so much to the overall play of the team - I remember he completed over 100 passes in the CL final last season, - it's an insane achievment.
 
This "could he do it without Xavi and Iniesta" is such a bullshit criticism. Use your eyes, for feck's sake. Watch him play football. You don't have to judge individuals on the performance of their team. I'm sorry but anyone who can't appreciate Messi's complete and utter mastery of the art of playing football just isn't paying enough attention. Which has absolutely nothing to do with who he plays alongside.
 
It's beyond ridiculous.

Has it sunk in yet that we are being priveledged to watching most possibly the two greatest players ever playing at the same time, hitting their peaks at the same time? Crazy.

Hehe, no chance.
 
that was his moment of brilliance during that world cup

then, he missed a penalty against yugoslavia, and we qualified to the semis because goycoechea saved two penalties

Missing a penalty in the world cup doesn't take away from the fact that it was Maradona who dragged Argentina to the final. Just like it was Baggio who was the only major reason Italy managed to make it to the final in 1994 despite missing the decisive penalty in that final.

Messi's real challenge isn't to piss on clearly inferior teams in a Barca side that would still be the best team in the world even without Messi. His real challenge is to do what Maradona did for his national side - or even surpass that to be considered as better than Maradona.

Maradona was the main reason Argentina got to the final in 1990, and he was the major reason Argentina won it in 1986. Messi has still a lot of time left to be able to match or perhaps better Maradona's accomplishments in that regard. That remains his real challenge.
 
If Argentina had gone out in the group stages of Italia '90 then Maradona would've come in for some intense criticism, non-existent for probably about 75% of those first three games with the only significant contribution being a good corner in the last game. Should've gave away a penalty in the second game too. In the same way, Zidane would've come in for a lot of criticism in '98 if they'd gone out against Italy as they well could have. Just goes to show that luck still has a huge impact even at this level, because much of their legends are based on that.
 
:lol: even most his countrymen disagree.

Fully agree. If Ronaldo wins La Liga with Real this season and gets out of group stages with Portugal, he will be considered much better.
 
that was his moment of brilliance during that world cup

then, he missed a penalty against yugoslavia, and we qualified to the semis because goycoechea saved two penalties

I remember watching that game, we were so close to beating you. Damn penalties. We had a fantastic generation of players and I still consider us to be the moral winners of that match :D
 
Could he do it if he was plucked out of Barca and dropped kicking and screaming into the Stoke lineup? This argument cannot be decided until he signs for Stoke, so probably around 5 years away is when we'll get an answer
 
It's a shame really, that Ron is in almost the same generation as Messi, as IMO, he will almost forever be overshadowed by the little genius, very similar to how it's been a shame for us to reach 2 UCL finals, only to face Barca.

I think, as football fans we should all be able to appreciate the both of them, as they are also vastly different type of players.

The only difference is, Ron will go down as a great. Maybe a arguable top 10 of all time if he continues this form for next few years, but Messi will go down as arguably the greatest ever, whereas I don't think Ron will ever be debated along those lines.
 
era un equipo lleno de jugadores brillantes, pero muchos estaban lesionados, con un tecnico como biulardo que era un genio pero tambièn un caprichoso, y con maradona que decìa cuàles jugadores iban y cuàles no

Me había olvidado de ese detalle, esa era una contra grande que tenía post-86 con la selección. Era un genio en la cancha pero todo lo de meter las narices en temas que no le conciernen pasó a ser más que su contribución futbolística.

llegò a la final no gracias a maradona sino gracias a la suerte

Si, la suerte fue lo más importante, jugaron horrible -defendiendo bien- todo el campeonato y no hizo las maravillas del 86.

No se destacó tanto pero con su presencia desbarataba a la defensa. Lo marcaban de a dos o tres y eso dejaba a los otros 9 jugando contra 7 u 8. Caniggia aprovechaba eso muy bien, estaba continuamente pendiente de "si Diego va para allá se lleva a tal y tal así que yo debo estar... ahí". Y la bola no se la daban a Diego, se la daban a Cani porque quedaba solo. En serio, fijate cuando vuelvas a ver uno de esos partidos, el tipo no "hace" nada, pero todo lo que pasa gira en torno a él. Con el movimiento de Caniggia en particular era clarísimo.

O sea, lesionado y sin poder rendir individualmente (lo infiltraban antes de cada partido y casi no le entraba la bota), hizo un laburo bastante sacrificado que le permitió a otros encontrar espacios en el partido y mantenía rivales atados en su media cancha... que defensivamente era útil ;)

Nada que ver con lo del 86, pero sin Diego a esa final tampoco llegaban, ni cerca por más genio que fuese Bilardo.
 
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