Lionel Messi

[Fortitude]

Was going to say the same thing myself. There's definitely some truth to the idea that most of the people who weren't alive to see Maradona play (and have no inclination to watch him at a later date) - which will be around half of the population by the time Messi ends his career - will simply claim Messi to be the best player to grace the game, and if he continues to do as what he's doing then most people of this era will happily ignore his unspectacular international form, possibly enough to create a consensus that he is in fact the best...whether that's true or not.

Messi is coming along very nicely indeed in terms of his game. His vision is improving as is his ability to hit the greater passes. He's still another ball park away from Pele and Maradona for it, but he's improved tremendously in this regard over the last two years.

Sorry, I digress, but I thought I'd mention it.

I think the general public will never deviate from what you've said, but for football purists, there's always going to be a much deeper analysis and the doubts about him if he never comes good outside of the Barca set-up.

If he fails to win a WC or do, say, a Cruyff, and carry his team to a narrow runner's-up position, it'll become a proper point of debate for future generations as to why he did not. That'll be as much a part of his legacy as his performances for Barcelona, I think.

I don't think that's true. You talk as if there are well established facts about people's ratings of football players. From what I know, van Basten is widely regarded on the continent as the best centre forward in the history of European football. That's my personal impression, there is no empirical research that can confirm it though. The same holds for you opinion that the likes of Eusebio are rated higher than van Basten. (Was Eusebio a genuine centre forward at all?) I don't think it's true though, not that I care much about it.

There are forums out there where people do nothing but analyse the history of the game and its greats with a fine-toothed comb. There's also world famous publications that do the same. The topic is discussed in great length and detail in many places.

Van Basten is highly rated, the ones I mentioned above him are more so. Gerd Muller is regarded, generally, as the best European striker of all time, with a flawless record that stands up to any scrutiny and, to top it off, shows a player that scored so many goals without taking pens!

Van Basten is generally regarded as one of if not the most complete strikers to play the game, however, which is a totally different discussion.

It doesn't look good for you to not know anything about Eusebio whilst at the same time talking about all-time regard.

Don't agree with that part necessarily. The standard of the opposition who you score your goals against, cannot be an issue as it cannot be accurately measured who constitutes good and who doesn't.

Huh?

Are you saying three goals against Saudi Arabia in a WC group game are held in the same esteem as, say, 3 goals against a major nation in a WC final?

I'd say calibre of opposition has a huge bearing on these things, which is why Gerd Muller's record is all the more impressive.

The general standard of the spanish league is not as high as the PL, especially a couple of years ago when they were 4 top teams in england doing well in the CL every year. But it does not take away from C. Ronaldo's or Messi's goalscoring credibility. Should it then not be the same with Klose?

He has played the same standard of opposition as all the other striker's at Wc's and over his time has amassed a goal tally second only to Ronaldo. He is obviously not regarded as one of the all time great players, off the back of his record, but his credentials as a regular goalscorer on the biggest stage is unquestionable surely. He has scored those goals, and only one man has ever scored more.

I've actually had the discussion about Messi's goal tally and La Liga on here before. Also the fact he is not facing great defenders on even a semi-regular basis. These things do count as factors, which is why goals from Serie A of the mid 80's to mid 90's were held in so much higher regard than club goals from any other league.

Klose's record is often disregarded because of the padding fodder have stacked it with. It's quite the opposite of what you've said: he's got that record because he's had the fortune to play the teams he did.

I agree. Unlike Best and Di Stefano who never got the chance, Messi has had a chance and will have more chances to inspire what is already an extremely talented Argentina team. Argentina's team on paper is as good as anybody's. there is no reason why he should be unable to show why he is the best in the world by some margin, within a team like that, at a WC.

If he was Scottish i would let him off, but he isn't and that team with him at the forefront should be able to produce at least one really good WC showing, that would put all these questions to bed.

Yeah, that's the big problem for Messi if he continues to not deliver. He plays for a world power alongside some of the best players any international team can put together at the moment. After Spain and Germany, Argentina are probably the most stacked squad in the world with him as their supposed ace card.

 

[Inspectah deck]

-----------------------------Romero-----------------------------


--Otamendi-----------Demichellis---Burdisso------------------Heinze



------------------------------Mascherano-----------------------------



----Maxi rodriguez-----------(Big gaping hole)--------------------Di maria-----


--------------------------------Messi---------------------------------



----------Tevez------------------------------------Higuain-----------

Honestly, if you consider:

-How shite that defence is
-The fact that rodriguez and di maria are supposed to be playing in central midfield (LOL), leading to that big gaping hole.

Then there actually 7 teams in the EPL alone better than that team. the Newcastle team that won 3-0 last week will destroy that team. Remove Messi from that team and you're looking at a distinct mid table side in the PL.Perspective lads (apoethesis in particular).​

 

[peterstorey]

Didn't Gutierrez end up playing left back?

 

[MaroonPondlife]

Well there's the problem really, there is so little coverage or interest in the CA, compared to the EC, that players outside of Europe only really get the WC to perform. however you try to claim how great he has been for Argentina, the fact you are having to convince people of it, tells its own story.

Though I can't be bothered to go back through all you posts on this 'need to play spectacularly at the WC to gain global exposure and hence acclaim' you seem to be contradicting yourself again here.

We all watched the tournament and while Messi was far from shit, he looked a shadow of his Barca self, and failed to perform against Germany when his team were getting beat. He wasn't on his own admittedly, but as the BPITW, there are expectations on him to make the difference as he does so often for Barca, he failed to do so im afraid MP, and all your stats will not change that.

But you see that's the point here, Messi is not playing for Barcelona here, he is playing for Argentina, and an Argentina side that was/is very average ... one that cannot supply the devastating forward power it possesses nor can they hold out defensively against average opposition.

These one-man teams of Pele and Maradona are, but keep it quiet ... not true you know.

 

[Inspectah deck]

Didn't Gutierrez end up playing left back?

Nope, he was on the bench.

 

[MaroonPondlife]

Does anyone else here think that Messi should be seriously regretting to playing for Spain? If he did, perhaps there wouldn't be any argument even at this stage...

Big mistake there Cal? This reads to me that he is the best player ever despite what some folks claim is a necessary pre-requisite in taking your country to national glory.

I knew it. You really are a fan.

 

[AttackingFlair]

2010 WC loss to Germany
Romero

Otamendi
Demichelis
Burdisso
Heinze

Rodriguez
Masherano
Di Maria

Messi
Higuain
Tevez

2011 CA loss to Uruguay
Romero

Zabaleta
Milito
Burdisso
Zanetti

Gago
Masherano
Di Maria

Messi
Higuain
Aguero

Defence and midfield were shockingly average - porous and without creativity.
Up front they undoubtedly have the potential as they're all world class or very near on their day but unfortunately they never worked collectively as a group to take advantage of their superior talents up front. The strategy was give it to Messi and hope for the best ... very easy for teams to figure out especially in today's age of defence first-sit back and hit on the break.

That is suicide

 

[Brwned]

I do have some sympathy for those defending Messi's international form, because I do think he's harshly criticised for his performances in the 2010 World Cup for example. He wasn't average, he was one of the standout players in the group stages in the entire competition, in every game he was probably Argentina's best player and in every game he was inches away from scoring one of the goals of the tournament. And he was very good in the 2007 Copa America. Overall he's been Argentina's best player over the last half-decade. At the end of the day though, in doing so the furthest he's taken them to is the Copa America final (when they didn't come close to winning it), and he was nowhere to be found in the QFs against Germany or Uruguay when they were in need of a leader to guide them and drag them through, and those are the moments that are remembered. Just like Maradona's remembered in the 1982 WC for the Brazil game. It's bemusing that you have people who are happy to go along with saying Maradona didn't really do anything on the international stage until '86 while fiercely contesting the criticism Messi's gotten for his performance in 2010.

By the time 2014 comes, Pastore might have forged a partnership with Messi in the way Maradona did with Burruchaga and the fluidity will come, and the talk of Messi not doing it for Argentina will be rightfully laughed off. I don't think anyone is hoping for anything else, other than Cal? maybe...we all want to see this genius of a player do it on the biggest stage, do it in a different team to really show the world that he's got the versatility and mentality to adapt to a very different situation and thrive, and simply to light up the world for a few weeks in a way no other tournament can. Just because I'm saying Messi hasn't brought his best form to the World Cup yet doesn't mean that I don't believe he can, I'm not saying he can't survive without Xaviesta, I'm not trying to wind people up, I'm just stating an opinion...but just because others have said the same thing with ulterior motives to try and suggest Messi's not really that great, people get so touchy. Even Maradona wasn't at his best for periods in the international game, for example in the qualifiers for 86'...he was far from perfect.

[Maradona] hadn't been at his best during the qualifiers and looked to be feeling the effects of the season in Italy and all the travelling.

Some things just click. Just because it hasn't happened for Messi so far doesn't mean it won't.

 

[Cal?]

Big mistake there Cal? This reads to me that he is the best player ever despite what some folks claim is a necessary pre-requisite in taking your country to national glory.

I knew it. You really are a fan.

Well, no, more like if he made the right choice, he'd forever be playing in his comfort zone with Xavi & co driving his reputation.

As it is, he's let down by the likes of Di Maria and gets shown up whenever he plays for his country.

 

[apotheosis]

Well, no, more like if he made the right choice, he'd forever be playing in his comfort zone with Xavi & co driving his reputation.

As it is, he's let down by the likes of Di Maria and gets shown up whenever he plays for his country.

I knew it, you are still not!

 

[Cal?]

I do have some sympathy for those defending Messi's international form, because I do think he's harshly criticised for his performances in the 2010 World Cup for example. He wasn't average, he was one of the standout players in the group stages in the entire competition, in every game he was probably Argentina's best player and in every game he was inches away from scoring one of the goals of the tournament. And he was very good in the 2007 Copa America. Overall he's been Argentina's best player over the last half-decade. At the end of the day though, in doing so the furthest he's taken them to is the Copa America final (when they didn't come close to winning it), and he was nowhere to be found in the QFs against Germany or Uruguay when they were in need of a leader to guide them and drag them through, and those are the moments that are remembered. Just like Maradona's remembered in the 1982 WC for the Brazil game. It's bemusing that you have people who are happy to go along with saying Maradona didn't really do anything on the international stage until '86 while fiercely contesting the criticism Messi's gotten for his performance in 2010.

By the time 2014 comes, Pastore might have forged a partnership with Messi in the way Maradona did with Burruchaga and the fluidity will come, and the talk of Messi not doing it for Argentina will be rightfully laughed off. I don't think anyone is hoping for anything else, other than Cal? maybe...we all want to see this genius of a player do it on the biggest stage, do it in a different team to really show the world that he's got the versatility and mentality to adapt to a very different situation and thrive, and simply to light up the world for a few weeks in a way no other tournament can. Just because I'm saying Messi hasn't brought his best form to the World Cup yet doesn't mean that I don't believe he can, I'm not saying he can't survive without Xaviesta, I'm not trying to wind people up, I'm just stating an opinion...but just because others have said the same thing with ulterior motives to try and suggest Messi's not really that great, people get so touchy. Even Maradona wasn't at his best for periods in the international game, for example in the qualifiers for 86'...he was far from perfect.



Some things just click. Just because it hasn't happened for Messi so far doesn't mean it won't.

My impression is that people tend to support their own countries or have a favourite team they'd support in each WC, to suggest that most people (except me) want Messi (& therefore Argentina) to do well, is just a very strange idea.

Did you also want Schumacher to win every race back in his Ferrari days? Just because he's great?

 

[Brwned]

Messi is coming along very nicely indeed in terms of his game. His vision is improving as is his ability to hit the greater passes. He's still another ball park away from Pele and Maradona for it, but he's improved tremendously in this regard over the last two years.

Sorry, I digress, but I thought I'd mention it.

I think the general public will never deviate from what you've said, but for football purists, there's always going to be a much deeper analysis and the doubts about him if he never comes good outside of the Barca set-up.

If he fails to win a WC or do, say, a Cruyff, and carry his team to a narrow runner's-up position, it'll become a proper point of debate for future generations as to why he did not. That'll be as much a part of his legacy as his performances for Barcelona, I think.

I agree with all of that. I'd like to remind you one of our previous conversations in this very thread in which you were somewhat unconvinced about Messi's passing capabilities...he's coming along well. I don't think it's unfair to say his long range passing game still has plenty of room for improvement but his short game's really excellent.

 

[Brwned]

My impression is that people tend to support their own countries or have a favourite team they'd support in each WC, to suggest that most people (except me) want Messi (& therefore Argentina) to do well, is just a very strange idea.

Did you also want Schumacher to win every race back in his Ferrari days? Just because he's great?

I think people watch the game for individual brilliance as well as supporting their team, I don't think it's a stretch to say that everyone who was there to see Platini in '84, Maradona in '86, Baggio in '94 were grateful to have witnessed such a sight...and I think most people, deep down, want the best players to reach their absolute peak. I personally think you're in the minority.

 

[apotheosis]

Though I can't be bothered to go back through all you posts on this 'need to play spectacularly at the WC to gain global exposure and hence acclaim' you seem to be contradicting yourself again here.

Well no, i believe playing well and having success at International tournaments is important for those at the top of the tree. The likes of Van Basten did not do it at the WC's but his part in the success of the 88 EC makes amends. Same with Platini and Frnace in 84. Messi amd others outside Europe have only the WC to make a mark, because generally there is not as much interest in the Copa America.

Im not contradicting myself. i have held one view all along, it is not vital to perform at a WC to be considered a great, but to not perform at a WC when you have had the chance will only hinder the case for being considered the best ever.

But you see that's the point here, Messi is not playing for Barcelona here, he is playing for Argentina, and an Argentina side that was/is very average ... one that cannot supply the devastating forward power it possesses nor can they hold out defensively against average opposition.

These one-man teams of Pele and Maradona are, but keep it quiet ... not true you know.

But you have missed the point, he is measured by his performances for Barca. When they are struggling he regularly makes the difference. For Argentina he has yet to do that.

Sorry MP, but it is a fact if you are the star player of any team, you carry the expectations of that nation. If however you are the BPITW, then every nation's fans and media have an expectation of you. Baggio had it, Ronaldo had it, Zidane had it, and most relevantly Maradona had it and he delivered in style.

Whether you like it or not, whther Messi's club form is better than everybody else's in history or not, he will ultimately be measured against other greats by his performances in the World Cup. I honestly believe if Messi never truly shines and inspires Argentina to at least one final during his career, then he will be remembered for that. It is in his own hands really, in 10 years time, we could be looking at the greatest ever player, or the best player never to win a WC.

 

[Cal?]

I think people watch the game for individual brilliance as well as supporting their team, I don't think it's a stretch to say that everyone who was there to see Platini in '84, Maradona in '86, Baggio in '94 were grateful to have witnessed such a sight...and I think most people, deep down, want the best players to reach their absolute peak. I personally think you're in the minority.

People respect those achievements and talk about them for years afterwards, but I doubt many people hope for rival nations to do well just so that a supposed great player shines.

I do hope Ronaldo wins it for Portugal.

 

[apotheosis]

I think people watch the game for individual brilliance as well as supporting their team, I don't think it's a stretch to say that everyone who was there to see Platini in '84, Maradona in '86, Baggio in '94 were grateful to have witnessed such a sight...and I think most people, deep down, want the best players to reach their absolute peak. I personally think you're in the minority.

I agree completely with that Brwned, any fan of football wants to see the best players perform on the biggest stage. This is why everyone's favourite second team has been Brazil, because we love their talent and flamboyance the uncertainty of what trick they may produce.

I have no gripe with Messi, i want him to shine as much as anyone. but my point remains he has to inspire his national team with his genius to truly ever take his place alongside Maradona or Pele. He will never be accepted by the vast majority who will always use his failure on that stage, as a stick to beat him with. I hope he can do it, i want him to do it. Then we can discuss the genius of the players on a level playing field, rather than quibble over whether club form should trump world cup success.

 

[MaroonPondlife]

I do have some sympathy for those defending Messi's international form, because I do think he's harshly criticised for his performances in the 2010 World Cup for example. He wasn't average, he was one of the standout players in the group stages in the entire competition, in every game he was probably Argentina's best player and in every game he was inches away from scoring one of the goals of the tournament. And he was very good in the 2007 Copa America. Overall he's been Argentina's best player over the last half-decade. At the end of the day though, in doing so the furthest he's taken them to is the Copa America final (when they didn't come close to winning it), and he was nowhere to be found in the QFs against Germany or Uruguay when they were in need of a leader to guide them and drag them through, and those are the moments that are remembered. Just like Maradona's remembered in the 1982 WC for the Brazil game. It's bemusing that you have people who are happy to go along with saying Maradona didn't really do anything on the international stage until '86 while fiercely contesting the criticism Messi's gotten for his performance in 2010.

By the time 2014 comes, Pastore might have forged a partnership with Messi in the way Maradona did with Burruchaga and the fluidity will come, and the talk of Messi not doing it for Argentina will be rightfully laughed off. I don't think anyone is hoping for anything else, other than Cal? maybe...we all want to see this genius of a player do it on the biggest stage, do it in a different team to really show the world that he's got the versatility and mentality to adapt to a very different situation and thrive, and simply to light up the world for a few weeks in a way no other tournament can. Just because I'm saying Messi hasn't brought his best form to the World Cup yet doesn't mean that I don't believe he can, I'm not saying he can't survive without Xaviesta, I'm not trying to wind people up, I'm just stating an opinion...but just because others have said the same thing with ulterior motives to try and suggest Messi's not really that great, people get so touchy. Even Maradona wasn't at his best for periods in the international game, for example in the qualifiers for 86'...he was far from perfect.



Some things just click. Just because it hasn't happened for Messi so far doesn't mean it won't.

Good post ...that's more like it.

 

[apotheosis]

People respect those achievements and talk about them for years afterwards, but I doubt many people hope for rival nations to do well just so that a supposed great player shines.

I do hope Ronaldo wins it for Portugal.

Really Cal? If they were playing England then you want them to have a stinker.
But from a neutral's perspective, especially with no personal interest in the tournament, surely you would want to see all the top players for say Spain vs Argentina, all at the top of their games and producing a classic and historic football match.

I know i would, they are the only games you can ever truly enjoy, ones where you don't have to give a shit about the outcome.

 

[Cal?]

Really Cal? If they were playing England then you want them to have a stinker.
But from a neutral's perspective, especially with no personal interest in the tournament, surely you would want to see all the top players for say Spain vs Argentina, all at the top of their games and producing a classic and historic football match.

I know i would, they are the only games you can ever truly enjoy, ones where you don't have to give a shit about the outcome.

Well, I've always thought the earlier the better teams gets eliminated, the better whoever you supports' chances are.

 

[Brwned]

Good post ...that's more like it.

Might help next time to debate the point rather than disregard the person's opinion, then you'll get the same kind of reply.

 

[Sarni]

I do hope Ronaldo wins it for Portugal.

Why?

Besides it wouldn't be Ronaldo winning it for Portugal, it'd be Portugal winning it as a team.

 

[MaroonPondlife]

Well no, i believe playing well and having success at International tournaments is important for those at the top of the tree. The likes of Van Basten did not do it at the WC's but his part in the success of the 88 EC makes amends. Same with Platini and Frnace in 84. Messi amd others outside Europe have only the WC to make a mark, because generally there is not as much interest in the Copa America.

On contradiction, I'm talking about the folks of whom you have decided are deciding who is the best ... generally those in S America & Europe, the traditional hotbeds of football fanaticism until the last decade or so. Until the advent of satellite TV most football fans only had what they saw at their local grounds and the occasional International tournament to go on. In SA it was unlikely that they saw much coverage of Euros and vice-versa, Europeans unlikely saw many CAs. I haven't even included the domestic leagues here. (and btw, Euros are no more important than CAs).

That is not the case today ... everybody throughout the world has access to
the ECL and the European leagues, which allows for comparison on a weekly basis. My point is that the importance of leading your country to glory at the WC is probably not as important among global fans these days as there are more obvious ways to determine whether a player is consistently brilliant.

But you have missed the point, he is measured by his performances for Barca. When they are struggling he regularly makes the difference. For Argentina he has yet to do that.

Sorry MP, but it is a fact if you are the star player of any team, you carry the expectations of that nation. If however you are the BPITW, then every nation's fans and media have an expectation of you. Baggio had it, Ronaldo had it, Zidane had it, and most relevantly Maradona had it and he delivered in style.

Whether you like it or not, whther Messi's club form is better than everybody else's in history or not, he will ultimately be measured against other greats by his performances in the World Cup. I honestly believe if Messi never truly shines and inspires Argentina to at least one final during his career, then he will be remembered for that. It is in his own hands really, in 10 years time, we could be looking at the greatest ever player, or the best player never to win a WC.

He has made the difference for Argentina but you and you're not the only one, fail to see that unless you have a decent coordinated team around you (which he never really had/has apart from at the CA07) you will never get past the big boys at the business end of tournaments in this day and age of football.

 

[Orton]

Why?

Besides it wouldn't be Ronaldo winning it for Portugal, it'd be Portugal winning it as a team.

With Ronaldo having around 100 shots on goal in the whole tournament, with at least 75% of them off target.

 

[MaroonPondlife]

Might help next time to debate the point rather than disregard the person's opinion, then you'll get the same kind of reply.

Heed your own words then ... lately your posts have come across as arrogant know-alls.

Your post basically back-tracked on your initial stance(s) re: the quality of the Argentine national team since Messi's emergence when I frivolously called you on it ... because that's what your uninformed opinion on it was/deserved.

 

[Gio]

In the 2006WC he was the only one making any real difference for Argentina, and Pekerman paid for it spectacularly ... one of those if only moments for the country.

In the 2007CA he was the best player by far ... the only reason they lost that final was because the referee allowed Brazil to rotationally kick them off the field - they targeted Riquelme and Messi & it worked.

At the 2010WC he did everything but score ... blocks on the line, hitting the post, etc.

At the 2011CA I don't remember ... most of the tourney was shite.

Let's not rewrite history - in 2006, he was no more than a bit part player. I cannot remember him having much role in the iconic 6-0 demolition of Serbia and Montonegro. It was the decision to take off Argentina's primary creative force Juan Roman Riquelme against Germany, who had been the player of the tournament till that point, which was the real 'if only moment'.

Thought he had a decent 2010 tournament, particularly in the group stages (he was rampant against Nigeria), but not a vintage series of performances by any means. The Costa Rica game apart, I was disappointed with him in the 2011 Copa. A player of his calibre should have made a more substantial impact, particularly with the central role he was afforded.

 

[FranklyVulgar]

It's good to see the genuine points being made. No team can win anything if their defense is shite. Attacking players always get the credit, the greats if you will but if you dont have a solid foundation which clearly all teams that ever win a championship need.

 

[FranklyVulgar]

Let's not rewrite history - in 2006, he was no more than a bit part player. I cannot remember him having much role in the iconic 6-0 demolition of Serbia and Montonegro. It was the decision to take off Argentina's primary creative force Juan Roman Riquelme against Germany, who had been the player of the tournament till that point, which was the real 'if only moment'.

Thought he had a decent 2010 tournament, particularly in the group stages (he was rampant against Nigeria), but not a vintage series of performances by any means. The Costa Rica game apart, I was disappointed with him in the 2011 Copa. A player of his calibre should have made a more substantial impact, particularly with the central role he was afforded.

it was Pekerman career suicide. To take of Riquelme in the first place, in second place not to replace him with Messi. It was a footballing injustice.

 

[MaroonPondlife]

Let's not rewrite history - in 2006, he was no more than a bit part player. I cannot remember him having much role in the iconic 6-0 demolition of Serbia and Montonegro. It was the decision to take off Argentina's primary creative force Juan Roman Riquelme against Germany, who had been the player of the tournament till that point, which was the real 'if only moment'.

Indeed he was mainly a substitute but from those cameos he was taking the piss. Most pundits at the time were confused as to why he wasn't used at all in that game vs Germany when they had them on the backfoot - Messi was the obvious substitution to pin them back with their superiority.

Thought he had a decent 2010 tournament, particularly in the group stages (he was rampant against Nigeria), but not a vintage series of performances by any means. The Costa Rica game apart, I was disappointed with him in the 2011 Copa. A player of his calibre should have made a more substantial impact, particularly with the central role he was afforded.

True, he wasn't at his best in the 2011 Copa but I believe there was far more pressure one him here then just the over-burdened on-field expectations.

 

[Brwned]

Heed your own words then ... lately your posts have come across as arrogant know-alls.

Your post basically back-tracked on your initial stance(s) re: the quality of the Argentine national team since Messi's emergence when I frivolously called you on it ... because that's what your uninformed opinion on it was.

Rather I think you chose not to apply context, which is of course in comparison the all-time greats, simply because you preferred to ridicule the opposing opinion rather than to have a debate...it seems entirely unnecessary to say 'in comparison to the all-time greats' after every statement, it's the only debate that's had about Messi now. He's the great player of this generation. There's no need to compare him to others still playing, so he's compared to those of the past. In comparison the the greats, what he's done so far on the international stage is without question unspectacular compared to the heights that so many other greats have hit, and unspectacular compared the heights Messi can and should hit in his later career...if he goes on to dominate a tournament and be very influential in another, then saying his early international form was unspectacular will be something everyone will agree on. It was laziness no my part to not state the context, and your laziness to not infer it...IMO.

 

[MaroonPondlife]

Rather I think you chose not to apply context, which is of course in comparison the all-time greats, simply because you preferred to ridicule the opposing opinion rather than to have a debate...it seems entirely unnecessary to say 'in comparison to the all-time greats' after every statement, it's the only debate that's had about Messi now. He's the great player of this generation. There's no need to compare him to others still playing, so he's compared to those of the past. In comparison the the greats, what he's done so far on the international stage is without question unspectacular compared to the heights that so many other greats have hit, and unspectacular compared the heights Messi can and should hit in his later career...if he goes on to dominate a tournament and be very influential in another, then saying his early international form was unspectacular will be something everyone will agree on. It was laziness no my part to not state the context, and your laziness to not infer it...IMO.

Fair enough. But the context, which you seem to be ignoring again, (or maybe I should be inferring something), is that not he, nor Pele, nor Maradona, nor anybody did it, can do it or is ever likely to do it without a decent well-organised ensemble cast (step down the Argentinian teams of late), and especially in today's footballing context - the goal posts have moved IMO.

 

[apotheosis]

On contradiction, I'm talking about the folks of whom you have decided are deciding who is the best ... generally those in S America & Europe, the traditional hotbeds of football fanaticism until the last decade or so. Until the advent of satellite TV most football fans only had what they saw at their local grounds and the occasional International tournament to go on. In SA it was unlikely that they saw much coverage of Euros and vice-versa, Europeans unlikely saw many CAs. I haven't even included the domestic leagues here. (and btw, Euros are no more important than CAs).

That is not the case today ... everybody throughout the world has access to
the ECL and the European leagues, which allows for comparison on a weekly basis. My point is that the importance of leading your country to glory at the WC is probably not as important among global fans these days as there are more obvious ways to determine whether a player is consistently brilliant.

no i never said the CA is less important i said there was less coverage in the Western media, so many of us do not have as much exposure to the CA as we do the EC. But the WC has a truly global audience.

I have never disputed Messi's brilliance, but i have said that his brilliance will always be contested against the likes of Maradona, especially because of Maradona's WC success and individual contributions to it. Messi does not only have to prove himself at a WC to be considered amongst the very best, he actually has to do it to even be considered the best Argentinian!

Don't get me wrong MP, i love Messi, an absolute genius, no question. but i also recognise that there is no reason for him not to be expected to show his genius at a WC. Calling the capabilities of his team just does not cut it, they are better than most, have attacking talent the envy of any nation, and they should with what they have at their disposal be capable of doing very well at a WC.

With the talent he has it is unheard of for players of such genius not to perform at a WC. I can think of no other in that genius category who has failed to produce at at least one WC when they have had the chance. I cannot think of a single valid excuse for Messi should he fail to follow suit.

If he finishes his career as the only genius never to perform there, which i cannot believe will be the case, but if so, he will undoubtedly be remembered as much for that failure, as anything he achieved at club level, rightly or wrongly.

He has made the difference for Argentina but you and you're not the only one, fail to see that unless you have a decent coordinated team around you (which he never really had/has apart from at the CA07) you will never get past the big boys at the business end of tournaments in this day and age of football.

You can still shine in a average team MP. come on now, there are many teams out there who only have a couple of decent players and they are still expected to shine for their teams. None are as talented or as individually capable as Messi, and there are few with such a talented support cast.

 

[MaroonPondlife]

apotheosis ... I appreciate your respect in reply and I don't entirely disagree with a lot of the points you put across, however I think we'll just have to disagree on what he has and hasn't to do over the next 10 years.

Until his supporting cast improves under a coach who know's what he's doing then I doubt Messi will be hoisting a WC, ever. Cheers.

 

[Brwned]

Fair enough. But the context, which you seem to be ignoring again, or maybe I should be inferring, is that not he, nor Pele, nor Maradona, nor anybody did it, can do it or is ever likely to do it without a decent well-organised ensemble cast (step down the Argentinian teams of late), and especially in today's footballing context - the goal posts have moved IMO.

I've never disagreed with that, in fact I've said as much over and over again in this thread. I disagree with the idea that this is an average group of Argentinian players - there's definitely the makings of a decent, well organised side there, only lacking a top class centre back to a be a side capable of winning the WC - but I don't disagree with the fact the the group has been misused and some of the supporting cast simply haven't turned up. That being a factor in Messi failing to reach the heights he's capable of doesn't change the fact he hasn't hit those heights, though. So I don't know what you disagreed with in my original point that contradicted any of this.

 

[FranklyVulgar]

I've never disagreed with that, in fact I've said as much over and over again in this thread. I disagree with the idea that this is an average group of Argentinian players - there's definitely the makings of a decent, well organised side there, only lacking a top class centre back to a be a side capable of winning the WC - but I don't disagree with the fact the the group has been misused and some of the supporting cast simply haven't turned up. That being a factor in Messi failing to reach the heights he's capable of doesn't change the fact he hasn't hit those heights, though. So I don't know what you disagreed with in my original point that contradicted any of this.

Exactly but unless they sort out the back the amount of attacking talent you have will be nullified. Like i said earlier, any side that wins anything at the top level will be solid. Be it Napoli with Maradona, Argies, Brazil. England in 66 as well.

It's all well and good talking about talent of one player, but without a team that has solidity it's all for nothing. Can be fun to watch these teams but they'll win nothing.

If anything a team can win with nothing but a defense, but it can't win without a defense. Greece?

 

[MaroonPondlife]

I've never disagreed with that, in fact I've said as much over and over again in this thread. I disagree with the idea that this is an average group of Argentinian players - there's definitely the makings of a decent, well organised side there, only lacking a top class centre back to a be a side capable of winning the WC - but I don't disagree with the fact the the group has been misused and some of the supporting cast simply haven't turned up. That being a factor in Messi failing to reach the heights he's capable of doesn't change the fact he hasn't hit those heights, though. So I don't know what you disagreed with in my original point that contradicted any of this.

There's probably not a single player in their defensive back line that would make it into the world's top sides. Even Mascherano would struggle to find a spot, nevermind Gago or Banega. Aguero & Higuain are finishers. Tevez is F-knows now and has been for a while quite poor at international level. Di Maria has only really come on this season.

According to Wiki, in addition to the 24-man squad they called up for their Nov2011 games vs Bolivia (1-1) & Colombia (w, 2-1) they've called up a further 80 players since March of last year. That tells me they know there is a problem with personnel.

Unfortunately for Argentina, it looks like they are going to have to drop Messi back to act as the main playmaker and hope they can provide him with a couple of decent supporting midfielders. Further away from the dangerzone but it may be the only way they'll have a chance. Assuming of course they can find the defenders to do the rest of the team justice.

 

[Snow]

Exactly but unless they sort out the back the amount of attacking talent you have will be nullified. Like i said earlier, any side that wins anything at the top level will be solid. Be it Napoli with Maradona, Argies, Brazil. England in 66 as well.

It's all well and good talking about talent of one player, but without a team that has solidity it's all for nothing. Can be fun to watch these teams but they'll win nothing.

If anything a team can win with nothing but a defense, but it can't win without a defense. Greece?

Going by the last Copa they couldn't even score. Well, almost no one could score in that tournament.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

It's not the fact Klose has so many WC goals that people go on about, but rather the slop he's put them in against. It's also a fact that to be recognised as an elite you have to have had a great club and country career, or, an absolutely phenomenal club career with little chance to shine at Int. stage (shite country, or injured at the time those international tournaments come round.)

To the bolded: Puskas, Eusebio and Gerd Mueller are all rated above Van Basten with the likes of Nordahl, Romario and Kocsis being comfortably par with Van Basten.

Klose shows more that a load of goals against unimpressive sides in World Cups with next to nothing of any merit to show at club level is easily dismissable, not that great performances in the latter stages of WC's is.

IF Messi continues along his current path constantly not displaying the same form at International level whilst being part of an amazing club side surrounded by great players, more questions will be asked as to why that's the case than not. It would actually be a bigger blight on him than it is now. So rather than consistent brilliance for Barcelona drawing him closer to Maradona and the like, it'll more than likely push him further away if he shows nothing like that level for his country.

Spot on

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

No it is not. But you can stop replying to me, tbh. I'm bored of you by now.

 

[apotheosis]

apotheosis ... I appreciate your respect in reply and I don't entirely disagree with a lot of the points you put across, however I think we'll just have to disagree on what he has and hasn't to do over the next 10 years.

Until his supporting cast improves under a coach who know's what he's doing then I doubt Messi will be hoisting a WC, ever. Cheers.

Fair play to you too MP, we have both made our points and not much value in going round in circles, but at least we can disagree amicably, which is something of a rarity in itself on here!

 

[Marcosdeto]

Messi gets the FIFA Ballon D'or for third year in a row

Cal! Caaal! Cal? where are you?

missshi missshi missshi

Caaaal?