Lionel Messi

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Alex said:
It was in the World Cup though, you know the tournament that Messi didn't really do much in this summer sans his Barcelona teammates.
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so if Messi bangs one in against a poor England you would give him credit?

it's strange how things work, anyway I don't think Messi had a poor world cup, he was played out of position and kept being denied by the woodwork. He still managed to do his trademark dribbles from deep and got a few assists

his next world cup I think he's going to silence alot of talk, I'm pretty sure it eats at him daily
 
marchi-91 said:
Yet he's been poor against us in 07/08 semi, v Chelsea in 08/09 semi and v Inter in 09/10 semi.

Don't get me wrong, he's a brilliant player and one of the best in the world right but I guess i'm more irked at him being touted as the best of all time and the bullshit Ballon this year....
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but he scored in the CL Final in 08/09 so I don't really understand the obsession with the Semi

in 07/08 despite just returning from injury he was Barca's best player in both legs, don't you remember the leg at Old Trafford? almost everytime he got the ball he managed to beat one of our players, my heart was in my mouth for the whole 90 mins.

kinnel, how can that be defined as poor?

SmashedHombre said:
Yeah, so you have said.

In about every other thread in the football forum
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I only speak about Messi in related threads, this statement is not remotely close to being true
 
When Messi can win the world cup with an average Argentine side and win the league with an unfashionable team like Maradona did then I'd give credence to him being considered one of the best of all time.

Maradona won the scudetto twice when the scudetto was the hardest league to win and he won it with Napoli!
 
Boss said:
but he scored in the CL Final in 08/09 so I don't really understand the obsession with the Semi

in 07/08 despite just returning from injury he was Barca's best player in both legs, don't you remember the leg at Old Trafford? almost everytime he got the ball he managed to beat one of our players, my heart was in my mouth for the whole 90 mins.

kinnel, how can that be defined as poor?
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Not hard to be one of the best players in a team that was a shower of shite at the time and struggling for goals. He may have been threatening but he didn't deliver and thats the abundant fact. He will always be threatening because he's Messi, the same as Ronaldo because he is Ronaldo.

The obsession from the semi comes from the fact that Barcelona were one shit reffing decision away from not getting into the CL final. Their 08/09 semi had nothing to do with skill but blind luck. We kept Barca at bay in 07/08 for two legs and deserved to go through.
 
marchi-91 said:
Not hard to be one of the best players in a team that was a shower of shite at the time and struggling for goals. He may have been threatening but he didn't deliver and thats the abundant fact. He will always be threatening because he's Messi, the same as Ronaldo is Ronaldo.

The obsession from the semi comes from the fact that Barcelona were one shit reffing decision away from not getting into the CL final. Their 08/09 semi had nothing to do with skill but blind luck. We kept Barca at bay in 07/08 for two legs and deserved to go through.
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i.e he didn't score?

now look who's putting the emphasis on goals

on the last part, even though Barca didn't deserve to go through, the 08/09 final still happened and it was still a massive game and Messi delivered
 
Yassir said:
When Messi can win the world cup with an average Argentine side and win the league with an unfashionable team like Maradona did then I'd give credence to him being considered one of the best of all time.

Maradona won the scudetto twice when the scudetto was the hardest league to win and he won it with Napoli!
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Seconded.
 
Yassir said:
When Messi can win the world cup with an average Argentine side and win the league with an unfashionable team like Maradona did then I'd give credence to him being considered one of the best of all time.

Maradona won the scudetto twice when the scudetto was the hardest league to win and he won it with Napoli!
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Spot on
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Spot on
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will never happen.

If/When Messi wins a world cup he'll have what people consider to be great players around him. It's lose lose, nobody can do what Maradona did. Still a misconception that Napoli and the argentina national team of the time were average. Very good teams indeed with plenty of quality.

One man teams are a myth.
 
Yassir said:
When Messi can win the world cup with an average Argentine side and win the league with an unfashionable team like Maradona did then I'd give credence to him being considered one of the best of all time.

Maradona won the scudetto twice when the scudetto was the hardest league to win and he won it with Napoli!
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Naples is the 3rd biggest City in Italy, and they broke the world record to sign him you do know? They didn't have any history of success capturing Seria A previously, but they spent big money to do it, and had some other very good players

And it's not as if he played in the World Cup Finals with ten dustbin men

I think this is a nonsense argument myself. Why should Messi have to mirror everything Maradona did in his career? If he continues to score at such a ridiculous rate, and win trophies on a regular basis... you can argue til you're blue in the face, this lad is right up there with the very greatest ever

A World Cup victory wouldn't half help his cause mind. Do you put it past him if Argentina have anything like a half decent manager?
 
FranklyVulgar said:
will never happen.
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Only because Messi isnt as good as Maradona. Despite what many of his fan boys think.

FranklyVulgar said:
If/When Messi wins a world cup he'll have what people consider to be great players around him. It's lose lose, nobody can do what Maradona did.
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Wronger than wrong. Firstly, Messi is surrounded by far superior players in the current crop of Argentines in the national side than any set Maradona had at his peak. Secondly, beings surrounded by quality doesn't mean you can't carry them. Maradona used to consistently carry his teams. So did Pele save for the 1970 Brazil side. Let Messi do like wise then he will earn the right to be in their league. Simples. Zidane for example almost broke into that bracket in 2006. Only his head butt on Materazzi stopped him.

FranklyVulgar said:
Still a misconception that Napoli and the argentina national team of the time were average. Very good teams indeed with plenty of quality.
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None of those sides had the collective quality Messi has at club level or what he was surrounded with at the Copa America he lost with Argentina or at the recent world cup even.

Maradona wining Serie A with Napoli for example was the logical equivalent of Messi doing it right now Atletico Madrid, with the current Barca (Milan in those days) and Real sides (Juventus back then) gunning for the title.

FranklyVulgar said:
One man teams are a myth.
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Clearly. But teams carried by one man aren't.
 
Yassir said:
When Messi can win the world cup with an average Argentine side and win the league with an unfashionable team like Maradona did then I'd give credence to him being considered one of the best of all time.

Maradona won the scudetto twice when the scudetto was the hardest league to win and he won it with Napoli!
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Agree but to be honest Napoli wasn't that average. Careca was one of the best forwards at that time. Ferrara was a very good defender and di Napoli was more then average.

I remember the games between Milan and Napoli. If you think that Messi is one level above the rest then Maradona was on another planet if we consider that Milans defense at that time was Maldini - Baresi - Costacurta - Tassotti. This guy's where well organized but still Napolis nr 10 was all over them and every time he had the ball he scared the shit out of the whole San Siro. And I think it's fair to say that Milans defense was a little bit better then Mou's boys.

Great games with great players.
 
Messi is great player,but as my father said to me numerous times Maradona was something else,and he saw him playing live. Like Jordan is basketball Maradona was a player that makes teammates better and whole team better,while in Messi case is completely different as his teammates makes him better then he really is.
Personally think Messi is best player in the world,just little ahead of Ronaldo,but neither one can be put at the same level with Maradona. He won WC with a team that was described as 10 waitress and Maradona,as all you had to do was serve the ball to him and wait for the moment of the magic. Napoli is same story,he won them 2 scuddeto at the world finest league back and UEFA Cup,theirs only big trophies ever.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Only because Messi isnt as good as Maradona. Despite what many of his fan boys think.

Wronger than wrong. Firstly, Messi is surrounded by far superior players in the current crop of Argentines in the national side than any set Maradona had at his peak. Secondly, beings surrounded by quality doesn't mean you can't carry them. Maradona used to consistently carry his teams. So did Pele save for the 1970 Brazil side. Let Messi do like wise then he will earn the right to be in their league. Simples. Zidane for example almost broke into that bracket in 2006. Only his head butt on Materazzi stopped him.

None of those sides had the collective quality Messi has at club level or what he was surrounded with at the Copa America he lost with Argentina or at the recent world cup even.

Maradona wining Serie A with Napolifor example was the logical equivalent of Messi doing it right now Atletico Madrid, with the current Barca (Milan in those days) and Real sides (Juventus back then) gunning for the title.

Clearly. But teams carried by one man aren't.
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Nothing wrong about it, that will happen or it wont depending on the results in the next couple of world cups. I have never said Messi is better than Maradona, i just dont rule out a 23 year old who is currently the best player around with anouther 10 years or so at the top to cement his legend. How far he goes, nobody knows, it's just exciting to see a modern player who might actually stand up to the greats. I'll reserve final judgment for when he retires.

Maradona is the greatest ever. He's had that crown for 30 odd years. I hope someday someone takes it, i want to see it. Messi is as close as i've seen to someone who might actually be capable.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
Nothing wrong about it, that will happen or it wont depending on the results in the next couple of world cups.
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Actually it will also depend on what he does at Barca. He has to replace Xavi as heart of the Barca side the way Ronaldinho was.


FranklyVulgar said:
i just dont rule out a 23 year old who is currently the best player around with anouther 10 years or so at the top to cement his legend.
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Neither have I. I'm just sure he has some way to go. Too many have jumped the gun with him. All this talk that he is so far ahead of everyone else around currently is just talk. International football keeps proving it. One day, when he is fully matured, he might get there

FranklyVulgar said:
it's just exciting to see a modern player who might actually stand up to the greats.
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He isn't the first to try. Let's just hope unlike past ones he doesn't get hit by injury or moments of madness like Zidane.

FranklyVulgar said:
I'll reserve final judgment for when he retires.
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Good for you. Personally I don't think I'll need to. The task ahead of him is pretty simple. Prove you can carry a team of stars or and ok group of players to glory, consistently. That is the bar Pele and Maradona set.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
he looks better in pink.
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nah, to be fair, he's got the pace and power to have succeeded in any era - I doubt the older more heavier boots and balls would've affected him that much. And he's got the strength to ride the most cynical challenges. But I'm not as sure about Messi. Sure Messi's more aesthetically pleasing on the eye(unless you're a bender or a bird) but Ronaldo's a fantastic physical specimen - which to be fair makes me sound a bit gay...but heh.
 
Spoony Youngblood said:
nah, to be fair, he's got the pace and power to have succeeded in any era - I doubt the older more heavier boots and balls would've affected him that much. And he's got the strength to ride the most cynical challenges. But I'm not as sure about Messi. Sure Messi's more aesthetically pleasing on the eye(unless you're a bender or a bird) but Ronaldo's a fantastic physical specimen - which to be fair makes me sound a bit gay...but heh.
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we all know you love a good physical specimen spoony!

I really don't see it though, Ronaldo looks like a thoroughbred for sure and players these days are generally fitter, lower body fat/more muscle than in the past.

Saying that for all Ronaldos physical gifts he's still knocked off the ball easier and can't ride challenges like Messi can.

Still, they can only do it in the here and now so it's all hearsay.
 
Class posting chief.

I don't know about maradona and pele but zidane is still easily the best I've seen regardless of the headbutt.
 
In the 30+ years that I've been watching football Messi, even at his young age is the best I've seen outside Maradona in every respect. And really, I'm not convinced that he might not be just as good already.

Ronaldo can't do anything that resembles a pass beyond what your average top flight footballer can manage. Whereas Messi is at least the best passer of the ball I've seen - its his best quality.

I'd love to sit next to some of you and listen to your own personal commentary - would explain a lot - the thinking behind the comments.
 
MaroonPondlife said:
In the 30+ years that I've been watching football Messi, even at his young age is the best I've seen outside Maradona in every respect. And really, I'm not convinced that he might not be just as good already.

Ronaldo can't do anything that resembles a pass beyond what your average top flight footballer can manage. Whereas Messi is at least the best passer of the ball I've seen - its his best quality.

I'd love to sit next to some of you and listen to your own personal commentary - would explain a lot - the thinking behind the comments.
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That pass to Villa in el clasico, that one is one I'll always remember, it was disgusting. You just sit back and admire, I much as I rate Ronaldo he doesn't have the ability to pull that off, especially in a big game.

I've seen so much footage of the great Maradona, individual highlights and it's blasphemous but I just can't see how he's that much superior to Lionel. All I see is similarities, Maradona is actually more pass orientated and in my opinion messi the better dribbler.

It's a reason Maradona can dust off his boots and play for Argies in 1994 because when you can pass like him you don't even need to run that much.

I don't know anymore man, but I think I'm going to maintain and let Messi grow more. I've got to chill with the superlatives somehow :/

But Messi does things only he in world football can do, this kind of talent doesn't come around often and should be appreciated
 
MaroonPondlife said:
In the 30+ years that I've been watching football Messi, even at his young age is the best I've seen outside Maradona in every respect. And really, I'm not convinced that he might not be just as good already.

Ronaldo can't do anything that resembles a pass beyond what your average top flight footballer can manage. Whereas Messi is at least the best passer of the ball I've seen - its his best quality.

I'd love to sit next to some of you and listen to your own personal commentary - would explain a lot - the thinking behind the comments.
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Excellent passer I agree, not the best.
 
Boss said:
That pass to Villa in el clasico, that one is one I'll always remember, it was disgusting. You just sit back and admire, I much as I rate Ronaldo he doesn't have the ability to pull that off, especially in a big game.

I've seen so much footage of the great Maradona, individual highlights and it's blasphemous but I just can't see how he's that much superior to Lionel. All I see is similarities, Maradona is actually more pass orientated and in my opinion messi the better dribbler.

It's a reason Maradona can dust off his boots and play for Argies in 1994 because when you can pass like him you don't even need to run that much.

I don't know anymore man, but I think I'm going to maintain and let Messi grow more. I've got to chill, somehow :/
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Thank feck for that! Take a hiatus from the caf! :)
 
Boss ... I really don't think you have to be concerned about plastering on the superlatives ... he deserves them. I've no reservations about applying them where he's concerned. I've really OD on football over the past 10 years and if it wasn't for this guy I'm not sure I be bothering with it much - I can't get enough and really wish there was a Messi-cam channel on my satellite package - only during games of course, I'm not a stalker of course. To be able to see what he's doing on the pitch from pitch level would be truly amazing I suspect.
 
MaroonPondlife said:
Boss ... I really don't think you have to be concerned about plastering on the superlatives ... he deserves them. I've no reservations about applying them where he's concerned. I've really OD on football over the past 10 years and if it wasn't for this guy I'm not sure I be bothering with it much - I can't get enough and really wish there was a Messi-cam channel on my satellite package - only during games of course, I'm not a stalker of course. To be able to see what he's doing on the pitch from pitch level would be truly amazing I suspect.
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I agree, he's the best of our generation, to be fair I think he's universally appreciated, it only seems to be Ronaldo fanbois who have issues with the plaudits.
 
Boss said:
I've seen so much footage of the great Maradona, individual highlights and it's blasphemous but I just can't see how he's that much superior to Lionel. All I see is similarities, Maradona is actually more pass orientated and in my opinion messi the better dribbler.
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When I see Messi playing for Argentina it's easy to see the difference.

One is extremely good but against the best teams he can't win game's on his own. He's not even a natural leader who lead his team when they need him.

The other one took his team to glory and success, no matter what was in front of him. A natural leader with charisma who lead by example.

Lionel Messi is still young with many years in front of him but so far he's not on the same level as the great Diego Maradona.
 
7even said:
When I see Messi playing for Argentina it's easy to see the difference.

One is extremely good but against the best teams he can't win game's on his own. He's not even a natural leader who lead his team when they need him.

The other one took his team to glory and success, no matter what was in front of him. A natural leader with charisma who lead by example.

Lionel Messi is still young with many years in front of him but so far he's not on the same level as the great Diego Maradona.
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Indeed, Diego was probably the greatest, Leo has a long way to to catch up to Diego.
 
7even said:
When I see Messi playing for Argentina it's easy to see the difference.

One is extremely good but against the best teams he can't win game's on his own. He's not even a natural leader who lead his team when they need him.

The other one took his team to glory and success, no matter what was in front of him. A natural leader with charisma who lead by example.

Lionel Messi is still young with many years in front of him but so far he's not on the same level as the great Diego Maradona.
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These are both intagible dispositions anyway, besides, I was only commentating on their style of play. Watch them side by side and they are uncanningly similar, especially with that ball glued to that left foot




Although it's subjective and we can never truly know I do agree with you on the whole charisma thing. Messi seems to be a very shy lad in contrast to Maradona
 
Boss said:
These are both intagible dispositions anyway, besides, I was only commentating on their style of play. Watch them side by side and they are uncanningly similar, especially with that ball glued to that left foot




Although it's subjective and we can never truly know I do agree with you on the whole charisma thing. Messi seems to be a very shy lad in contrast to Maradona
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:lol:

Silvio Berlusconi is a very shy lad compared to Diego.
 
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