That's fair, but I think the point still stands. In basketball, you don't see the winner of the scoring title as a top 2-3 guy in assists.
Lionel Messi | PSG Watch
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That's fair, but I think the point still stands. In basketball, you don't see the winner of the scoring title as a top 2-3 guy in assists.
Not to derail this thread further from Messi vs CR7 to Lebron vs Jordan, BUT....Lebron will finish his career with no one having scored more points in the history of the game than him and no one would really consider him a scorer, he's like a mix of Jordan and Magic. He's a great passer, scorer, defender, he has mastered more facets of the game than Jordan has, he's a more complete player in his game, while Jordan could do all those things as well, but he focused his game more on scoring and defense. I still think Jordan is the better of the two and who I would pick of the two, but Lebron has definitely mastered the game of basketball at a similar level to what I consider Messi does in football.
I'm not in the school of thought that versality makes someone a better player.
David Robinson was a much more versatile and balanced player than Shaq was, but he isn't close to him as an all time player. It's inarguable that Robinson mastered more facets of the game than Shaq did, but dominance is based on impact and Shaq was a better player.
As far as LeBron's points total go, we are talking about cumulative totals. LeBron has 1 scoring title compared to Jordan's 10 and lags well behind him in scoring averages in the regular season, playoffs, and finals. It doesn't make him a better scorer and doesn't indicate he mastered scoring the way Jordan did.
If we focus on defense, their impact stats aren't that close. Jordan in 1988 was in another tier.
You could say that LeBron's game is more balanced but he he lags behind in both impact (win share average) and PER (statistically).
I see your point when you say LeBron reminds you of Messi and I would assume you're referring to the fact that each is a historically great scorer as well as all time great playmaker at the same time.
I would argue that there's a minor distinction because Messi has an argument to be the greatest scorer ever (highest scoring peak in history, most golden boots, most top scorer award, one of the highest scoring averages ever) but LeBron really doesn't have the same argument in basketball.
Messi has the most recorded assists in football history while LeBron is obviously nowhere near Stockton.
Having said that, I see the parallels that you're drawing. Style-wise, he may be more comparable to Messi than anyone in basketball has ever been.
I think you just like writing about basketball, you see the point I'm making but then still make an argument as if I was making a different point.
I don't claim versatility makes someone better, I tend to agree with you that it's not an indication of a better player, hence my point I'd still pick Jordan ahead of Lebron, but the fact that Lebron is excellent at so many facets of the game, is physically capable of guarding 1-5 at his prime, and has dominated the game for 15+ years now with no breaks for baseball or a couple of retirements. It's the combination of versatility, longevity, and that no one has played more basketball than he has because he has consistently (outside of a couple of anomalies) taken his team to the Finals once he started winning championships.
I think if we were to make comparisons, CR7 is more akin to Jordan and Messi to Lebron, although in that case, the guy like Lebron is better than the guy like Jordan.
I think I agree with all that. There is no perfect comparison across sports but your last paragraph might be the closest comparison.
Right, what a dumb take seeing as he’s comfortably been Argentina’s best player for the last decade
If he would have moved teams and dominated left and right, people would accuse him of being a mercenary and picking and choosing his battles. There's no winning when people debate and argue in bad faith.
He is to me
I probably watch tennis like once or twice a year so I'm not even what you would call a casual fan but from what I've seen, Federer is the most technically excellent, most pleasing on the eye tennis player of the game that I have ever seen. All this whilst being a successful dominant force and I know it's a bit cheap to say but he's done this against athletic monsters.
Anyways, care to elaborate why?
I can see that multiple people still consider Roger the greatest and I can't dispute that. All I can say is that the numbers no longer make it a definitive case. He doesn't have the slam count or weeks at number 1 anymore. But I get that tennis (like any sport) is more than just numbers, and I can understand why so many still have him as the greatest.
Sorry buddy, said I wouldn't get dragged back into this thread as I just end up winding people up.
All good, and for the record I don’t think Messi has been amazing for psg by any stretch of the imagination. But psg is geared towards serving mbappe and it’s the right call. Messi is deeper than ever, his xg on the season is just at 7 goals highlighting how much more the attack is setup to feed mbappe. As a playmaker Messi is still fantastic and elite in that department.
Are you? taking all the way to this thread to comment as above with no contribution, seems obvious to me who the idiot is..
Also, check the post I am responding to & see if you will be able to identify passive-aggressive tone that you are soo sensitive to against me before polluting the thread with zero contribution..
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Well unfortunately it is history now. If Messi worked a few more years with Pep, or have managers like SAF or Ancelotti managing him for a few seasons instead of the Setiens or Valderdes, he probably would have double digits ballon dors and a few more UCLs.The moment Ronaldo began working with Solskjaer who helped United finish 2nd the previous season, all of a sudden, Ronaldo fans began to talk about managers and their importanceWhere have they been all these years when people said managers make a huge difference and Messi did not have the same luxury, but noooo, in their world, when Ronaldo's team wins, it is Ronaldo who brought the trophy. But, when he loses, it is his teammates, managers, conspiracy against Ronaldo etc..
If we ask any football fan the best managers last 20 years in top football nations, they would definitely include Guardiola, Klopp, SAF, Zidane, Mourinho, Conte, Allegri, Ancelotti at the top of the list. Ronaldo worked with 6 of them and Messi with just one. Imagine the worse ones he worked with are Sarri, Pellegrini type of coaches still better than the typical type Messi had to work with..
I always wanted Klopp to manage him & I bet they would do amazing things together. Klopp admires Messi a lot as well.
As you said, unfortunately, it is all history now. I would never understand Barca's mediocre coach policy, never, which other top team has an "unwritten" policy like that?
Pretty sure every manager in the world admires Messi. Mourinho called him the god of football.
Again, not to derail the thread but I'm not sure this is true. I think in many ways Messi is more like Jordan, and not just because he now has an association with him
For starters, they were both with one team for a long time (and strongly associated with that team) and then moved to another when they were old. One of the claims made about their chief rivals in both cases is that they can supposedly win with any team, and they've both bounced around from club to club doing that.
Also, I think Messi and Jordan are both physically disadvantaged in comparison to their rivals (shorter, smaller) but have styles of play that capture the imagination to a greater degree than their rivals.
Lastly, their rivals are both longevity merchants and workout warriors, and are constantly lauded for how fantastic they are for their age.
Yeah Barca’s coach policy is weird alright. They have never gone for a highly rated coach since LVG. Even Pep was a lucky scattershot hit. That Messi can win 7 ballon dors, 4 UCLs and that many LL titles under the shite lineup of coaches he had, it is probably his crowning achievement
Yeah its amazing he won so much under the likes of Guardiola and Luis Enrique
Nice sarcasm, but he not only won under Pep and Enrique, so yeah pretty amazing
There's a lot of things Michael Jordan is, physically disadvantaged against their rivals is absolutely not one of them though. Lebron is an absolute freak of nature physically, hardly ever injured in his almost 20 years (!!!) in the league, but he's only a couple of inches taller than MJ (definitely much bulkier), who I believe still has the record for highest vertical in the draft at over 50 inches. MJ's hands were so big he could grab the ball like a child-size volleyball. He had a huge physical advantage over his peers who basically had to beat the hell out of him to stop him a la Pistons.Again, not to derail the thread but I'm not sure this is true. I think in many ways Messi is more like Jordan, and not just because he now has an association with him
For starters, they were both with one team for a long time (and strongly associated with that team) and then moved to another when they were old. One of the claims made about their chief rivals in both cases is that they can supposedly win with any team, and they've both bounced around from club to club doing that.
Also, I think Messi and Jordan are both physically disadvantaged in comparison to their rivals (shorter, smaller) but have styles of play that capture the imagination to a greater degree than their rivals.
Lastly, their rivals are both longevity merchants and workout warriors, and are constantly lauded for how fantastic they are for their age.
The comparison is silly to begin with, I'll admit that, but in an attempt to stay on topic I made that comparison not by their playing circumstances (one man team etc) but their playing style and focus. MJ was a scorer, he was obsessed with scoring, and while he did create for hi teammates, most of the times it was get the ball to MJ and get out of the way, very similar to CR7 where everybody did the same for him at Madrid. Lebron is, IMO, a fake playmaker, they say he makes his teammates better, I don't buy it...I think they have to also sacrifice a lot of their game to get the best out of him, but he's at least far more of a playmaker than Jordan ever was, and scoring isn't his primary focus as it is to create winning opportunities however they may come.
So the comparison was purely about approach to the game where I feel CR7 is far more Jordan-like, while Messi is more of a Lebron. It's very silly but it kept us busy for a bit.
There's a lot of things Michael Jordan is, physically disadvantaged against their rivals is absolutely not one of them though. Lebron is an absolute freak of nature physically, hardly ever injured in his almost 20 years (!!!) in the league, but he's only a couple of inches taller than MJ (definitely much bulkier), who I believe still has the record for highest vertical in the draft at over 50 inches. MJ's hands were so big he could grab the ball like a child-size volleyball. He had a huge physical advantage over his peers who basically had to beat the hell out of him to stop him a la Pistons.
The comparison is silly to begin with, I'll admit that, but in an attempt to stay on topic I made that comparison not by their playing circumstances (one man team etc) but their playing style and focus. MJ was a scorer, he was obsessed with scoring, and while he did create for hi teammates, most of the times it was get the ball to MJ and get out of the way, very similar to CR7 where everybody did the same for him at Madrid. Lebron is, IMO, a fake playmaker, they say he makes his teammates better, I don't buy it...I think they have to also sacrifice a lot of their game to get the best out of him, but he's at least far more of a playmaker than Jordan ever was, and scoring isn't his primary focus as it is to create winning opportunities however they may come.
So the comparison was purely about approach to the game where I feel CR7 is far more Jordan-like, while Messi is more of a Lebron. It's very silly but it kept us busy for a bit.
I said both Jordan and Messi are physically disadvantaged compared to their rivals. Not compared to their opponents. Lebron is more physically dominant than Jordan. Lebron is only two or three inches taller than Mike, true, but he is much broader and stronger. Mike was skinny, he spent time bulking up to deal with the aggression from the Pistons etc.
Re the different approaches, I guess you could draw a parallel, but as you (or someone else) has already pointed out, Messi scores more and creates more. Lebron scores less and assists a bit more.
I would argue that Messi both scores more and assists more. He's the all time cumulative assist leader and has the most golden boots in history as well as having the highest scoring peak in football.
LeBron's best scoring season ranks 39th all time. His best season in terms of assists per game ranks 77th all time.
I see the parallel that Sayros was trying to make in terms of play style. I just think that Messi is much more dominant at both, in football, than LeBron is, in basketball (which, I believe, Sayros pointed out in a post as well).
That's what I said sir. Are you just reinforcing my point or did you think I said something else?
That's what I said sir. Are you just reinforcing my point or did you think I said something else?
I should have read it more thoroughly
My apologies if I misunderstood. My post was mainly in response to the last "LeBron scores less but assists more". I don't quite agree with that bolded bit because LMessi assists more in football than LeBron does in basketball (both in terms of peak and cumulative assists).I should have read it more thoroughly
No worries. I get you but I was saying that LeBron scores less than Jordan but assists more than Jordan. I should have been clearer. Anyway. that's a narrative that is also exaggerated because I think LeBron averages 1 or 2 more assists per game than Mike.
Got you. No worries.
won Ballon D'ors, Golden Shoe, Pichichis, world's best playmaker award under Valverde, Koeman and without Xavi, Iniesta, Neymar etc..
he´s been the best since 2009 to 2021
For those interested, an article about Messi's struggles in Ligue 1 and some of the reasons behind it, with all the heat maps, pie charts, and all that fun stuff.
That's an enlightening article for the people who won't read it.
Finally, a post that focusses on Messi's time at PSG, thank you!
Based on that award which was awarded to Jorginho
. A award which is given to a top performer of a winningest team is not a good indicator of measuring individual performance. And it is ofcourse biased. Modric was never the best player of 2017/18. Iniesta wasn't the best player of 2011/12. Ribery wasn't the best individual player of 2012/13. It is biased because it tends to favor player who won big instead of actaul individual performance.Under a superior coach this season normal service should resume
He didn’t really have one at Barcelona post Enrique to be honest and he was still knocking them in at ease.
Nah, he's setup to assist Mpabbe. He's no longer the guy who's expected to be the teams main goalscorer, but his role is to create for the other forwards. And he's 35.
Yes because when he was dominating and winning Balón dor and golden boots under Valverde, he was playing under a great coach
Huh? What does having a superior tactical set up have to do with being a great coach? Pochetino set up like an amateur all season and made his stars look bad domestically.Yes because when he was dominating and winning Balón dor and golden boots under Valverde, he was playing under a great coach
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Missing the point entirely. He was used poorly in an even poorer tactical set up. He is supposed to be operating as 10. Behind the forward line. Even if he is 35 he is better than the nonsense goal statistcs he ended up with last season.